Solstice/MS-R to join B-stock...thoughts ?
The SAC has asked for member comment of proposed stock class changes for 2010 season, see details here:
http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/316896.aspx Would B-stock be harmed or helped by the addition of the Solstice and MX5 MS-R to the current mix ? |
mx-5 vs RX-8's?! This could be fun...
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While we have certainly seen that in the right hands the CS cars can run with and beat BS, I think most of the CS cars would go away if this happened. :icon_no2:
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Originally Posted by ULLLOSE
(Post 2605973)
While we have certainly seen that in the right hands the CS cars can run with and beat BS, I think most of the CS cars would go away if this happened. :icon_no2:
It looks like the creation of this uber stock class will happen one way or another -- looks like the SEB is trying to create another stock class which will be as well subscribed as the current AS & SS classes. But therein lies the dilemna of which class to sacrifice to create this uber stock -- the current CS or the current ES? :uhh: Both camps won't be happy either way... :icon_no2: |
Originally Posted by chiketkd
(Post 2606126)
+12345
It looks like the creation of this uber stock class will happen one way or another -- looks like the SEB is trying to create another stock class which will be as well subscribed as the current AS & SS classes. But therein lies the dilemna of which class to sacrifice to create this uber stock -- the current CS or the current ES? :uhh: Both camps won't be happy either way... :icon_no2: |
Wow. I had always hoped they would split SS in a way to give all the non-competitive-but-cool cars, like Cayman Ss and Z4 M Coupes, a place to play. Something between SS and AS. Instead they propose to create a class for megabuck cars and near-race cars. Too bad.
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I don't understand why we can't a provisonal XSS class and see how it does for a couple of years.
I think the ubercars do need somewhere to run and most do not benefit much from SP mods ala cutting them up etc. ES is getting huge so killing that by putting the 99 in there would be a step backwards imo. 99 sport/ZOK/MS-R all can win CS and sometimes they can beat BS too as long as the RX8 doesn't get revved up on a course where it doesn't have to slow down to the bottom of second gear. Why don't we combine DS and GS since the pax is now inverted and the Mini beats the TypeR at almost EVERY event they go to together??? put a bunch of cars that are now classed in GS into HS. There is the precious class I guess we need since we can't make another stock class. But! Maybe the MiniS is protected or something??? GS really does beat DS at almost every event. CS only beats BS at some events... It wouldn't hurt the event to have another class. Heck! We could spread workers more effectively. FM |
Originally Posted by chiketkd
(Post 2606126)
But therein lies the dilemna of which class to sacrifice to create this uber stock -- the current CS or the current ES? :uhh:
Both camps won't be happy either way... :icon_no2: |
Originally Posted by kjchristopher
(Post 2607022)
Is there a limitation on the number of classes? I don't understand why one has to be sacrificed.
adding another class would just dilute the available number of drivers even more. look at your local events and divisionals and see all the one driver classes for an example. so the SEB is reluctant to add another class just to be adding another class. i don't have a big problem with adding the top dogs from CS to BS and the rest of the pack to ES. But i doubt the new SS will make any reasonable numbers, which i've already communicated to my local SAC member. i guess a letter to the SEB is in order... now, if they just eliminate the "L" classes then we got wiggle room! :rollingla |
Originally Posted by edj
(Post 2607288)
there are a lot of people who feel that there are too many classes already.
adding another class would just dilute the available number of drivers even more. look at your local events and divisionals and see all the one driver classes for an example. so the SEB is reluctant to add another class just to be adding another class. i don't have a big problem with adding the top dogs from CS to BS and the rest of the pack to ES. But i doubt the new SS will make any reasonable numbers, which i've already communicated to my local SAC member. i guess a letter to the SEB is in order... now, if they just eliminate the "L" classes then we got wiggle room! :rollingla It is funny how at the natls town hall every year half the people say there are to many classes, and the other half say there are not enough.... I guess that means we are just right. :) If you look at numbers from recent years the only area of growth it ST, so adding more stock classes would do just as you said and deplete the fields. I remember my first year at natls having 60+ cars and not being in biggest class. Now the norm is 40ish, I don't want to see it go lower. |
Originally Posted by fastmike
(Post 2606593)
I don't understand why we can't a provisonal XSS class and see how it does for a couple of years.
I think the ubercars do need somewhere to run and most do not benefit much from SP mods ala cutting them up etc. ES is getting huge so killing that by putting the 99 in there would be a step backwards imo. 99 sport/ZOK/MS-R all can win CS and sometimes they can beat BS too as long as the RX8 doesn't get revved up on a course where it doesn't have to slow down to the bottom of second gear. Why don't we combine DS and GS since the pax is now inverted and the Mini beats the TypeR at almost EVERY event they go to together??? put a bunch of cars that are now classed in GS into HS. There is the precious class I guess we need since we can't make another stock class. But! Maybe the MiniS is protected or something??? GS really does beat DS at almost every event. CS only beats BS at some events... It wouldn't hurt the event to have another class. Heck! We could spread workers more effectively. FM What happened in San Diego, Jason? It seems to me that event would be the best tell all but the numbers are very lopsided. |
At Packwood, BS beat CS by over .6 sec. BS ran second heat, CS third. So the conditions were fairly similar. This was a course that let the rotary stretch it legs, but it also had lots of long sweepers, which the Solstice should be faster at, given it's lower weight & identical tire/wheel package.
I know Joe Goeke can win PAX in NW Region when he has a good day. Probably course dependent, however. Having said all that, I'm used to fastmike beating me, straight time, in his Solstice. But I'm not a contender for the national title (yet), so that doesn't mean much. |
Originally Posted by tucker1170
(Post 2608061)
What happened in San Diego, Jason? It seems to me that event would be the best tell all but the numbers are very lopsided.
I still think the perception is BS cars are faster, and you would see a big decline of CS cars. |
Originally Posted by ULLLOSE
(Post 2608097)
The most recent events, Divisionals in San Diego and El Toro, I beat Ryan in SD and he got me at ET.
I still think the perception is BS cars are faster, and you would see a big decline of CS cars. Perhaps I should better spend my time trying to figure out why my car feels like a rowboat compared to the Solsti and MSR I have been in. The dust will settle soon enough and Topeka will make for the best comparison if the weather plays right. |
The key word in Jason's statement is perception. IMHO - the 99' Sport and MS-R are very, very close in performance to the RX8 and I think recent results have backed this up. It will be interesting to see how the Borowski's Solstice will fair this year. To my knowledge, it's the first ZOK package car with Koni doubles and a past Nat'l Champ at the wheel. Tucker's had a front row seat to the results so far this season, which have been very impressive.
Chris H |
Originally Posted by Zoom4Three
(Post 2608127)
The key word in Jason's statement is perception. IMHO - the 99' Sport and MS-R are very, very close in performance to the RX8 and I think recent results have backed this up. It will be interesting to see how the Borowski's Solstice will fair this year. To my knowledge, it's the first ZOK package car with Koni doubles and a past Nat'l Champ at the wheel. Tucker's had a front row seat to the results so far this season, which have been very impressive.
Chris H |
It's not so much the '99 Sport I'm scared of in BS... it's Ryan. :lol2:
Actually I think the MSR might be top dog in a combined BS/CS on the majority of courses. Just based on what I've observed. I haven't driven one yet. What I'm more worried about is ES going away altogether. Numbers remain strong so far, so with any luck we'll have a few more years of good cheap fun. :) |
there goes the neighborhood ...
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Originally Posted by BryanH
(Post 2608537)
It's not so much the '99 Sport I'm scared of in BS... it's Ryan. :lol2:
Actually I think the MSR might be top dog in a combined BS/CS on the majority of courses. Just based on what I've observed. I haven't driven one yet. What I'm more worried about is ES going away altogether. Numbers remain strong so far, so with any luck we'll have a few more years of good cheap fun. :) The beauty of the 99' Sport is lots of them are available and they are easy to build and cheap to maintain just like the rest of E-stock. I sold mine, with wheels/tires, shocks etc for less than $10K two years ago. That's not a big jump from the current cost of a top E-stock ride. I'm not advocating either change, just pointing out that B-stock could be dominated by the Solstice (IMHO) and E-stock would not die if the 99' was moved down. Another thought would be to move the non-MSR, MX5 to E-stock, where it's performance is better matched to the class, not an E-stock killer but a competitive place for the car to play. Chris H 2004 - C-stock Nationals runner-up 99' Miata 2006 - C-stock ProSolo Finale runner up, Solstice ZOK 2007 - B-stock Nationals 4th Place, RX-8 |
Originally Posted by Zoom4Three
(Post 2608657)
I'm more scared of Ryan (pick an alien) in a ZOK.
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[QUOTE=Zoom4Three;2608657]I'm more scared of Ryan (pick an alien) in a ZOK.
Agreed. We have been blessed in Chicago/ Milwaukee with some exceptional talent to watch. This year it has been more than interesting to watch 2 time Nat. champ Bartek Borowski in a ZOK going head to head against National Champ Chris Fenter in a MSR. It has been tight so far but Bart has been doing a lot of tire switching. I think that he is getting the car dialed in finally and is starting to dominate. Fenter is not happy with their limited wheel size/ tire selection. Now if we can merge the Mazdas together and get a RX8 with a port installed MSR kit......:yumyum: |
Originally Posted by BryanH
(Post 2608537)
It's not so much the '99 Sport I'm scared of in BS... it's Ryan. :lol2:
Actually I think the MSR might be top dog in a combined BS/CS on the majority of courses. Just based on what I've observed. I haven't driven one yet. Here's my suggestion: combine B & C Stock, and leave E Stock alone. I used to be a proponent of moving the '99s down to E Stock, but it has shown to be a solid class that still seems to have growth potential. Then, combine D & G Stock, and move some of the also-rans down to H Stock. Now we've got room to add SuperDuper Stock and Tweener Stock (current Super Stock also-rans). Here's why I suggest these things: while I certainly don't have the money to play in SuperDuper Stock, it certainly would be fun to watch. Let's face it - there are plenty of people who seem to have the means to buy $70k+ cars to play in parking lots, from all of the GT3s, C6 Z06s and Vipers I see. It may not rival today's Super Stock for field size next year, but it will be a growth class. On the other hand, i think Tweener Stock has a lot of growth potential. There are a lot of really cool, reasonably priced sports cars out there today that are too too slow to compete in Super Stock, but too fast for A Stock. Which has more growth potential, Tweener Stock and SuperDuper Stock, or today's C Stock and D/G Stock? I'll vote for the former. |
Another vote for merging BS/CS and DS/GS and making SSS and Tweener stock.
The course dependancy of the MS-R and Solstice to beat the RX8 sounds like the S2k in AS to me. If tweener stock happens, my rx8 will go out the door as soon as I can find a nice 996. Have you guys seen the huge depreciation on 996s? About the only car with worse depreciation than my rx8! |
Originally Posted by altiain
(Post 2609123)
On the other hand, i think Tweener Stock has a lot of growth potential. There are a lot of really cool, reasonably priced sports cars out there today that are too too slow to compete in Super Stock, but too fast for A Stock. Which has more growth potential, Tweener Stock and SuperDuper Stock, or today's C Stock and D/G Stock? I'll vote for the former.
As much as I like some of these cars, I'm not sure I see the case for a tweener class here. If you believe the PAX index (blah, blah, meaningless, blah), the differences between SS, AS, BS, and CS are about 0.5 sec each on a 40 second course. Given variations in driver, course, etc., if these cars really can't run reasonably competetively with the Z06/Lotus/GT3 in SS, then they should be in AS already. |
Originally Posted by fossumja
(Post 2610395)
As much as I like some of these cars, I'm not sure I see the case for a tweener class here. If you believe the PAX index (blah, blah, meaningless, blah), the differences between SS, AS, BS, and CS are about 0.5 sec each on a 40 second course. Given variations in driver, course, etc., if these cars really can't run reasonably competetively with the Z06/Lotus/GT3 in SS, then they should be in AS already.
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