Solstice/MS-R to join B-stock...thoughts ?
 

The SAC has asked for member comment of proposed stock class changes for 2010 season, see details here:

http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/316896.aspx


Would B-stock be harmed or helped by the addition of the Solstice and MX5 MS-R to the current mix ?

mx-5 vs RX-8's?! This could be fun...

While we have certainly seen that in the right hands the CS cars can run with and beat BS, I think most of the CS cars would go away if this happened. :icon_no2:

+12345

It looks like the creation of this uber stock class will happen one way or another -- looks like the SEB is trying to create another stock class which will be as well subscribed as the current AS & SS classes.

But therein lies the dilemna of which class to sacrifice to create this uber stock -- the current CS or the current ES? :uhh:

Both camps won't be happy either way... :icon_no2:

I know one SEB member that is not in support of SuperDuperStock. :icon_no2: But it is not any one persons decision, so at some point you have to toss $hit at the wall and see what sticks. Send in your letters.

Wow. I had always hoped they would split SS in a way to give all the non-competitive-but-cool cars, like Cayman Ss and Z4 M Coupes, a place to play. Something between SS and AS. Instead they propose to create a class for megabuck cars and near-race cars. Too bad.

I don't understand why we can't a provisonal XSS class and see how it does for a couple of years.
I think the ubercars do need somewhere to run and most do not benefit much from SP mods ala cutting them up etc.

ES is getting huge so killing that by putting the 99 in there would be a step backwards imo.

99 sport/ZOK/MS-R all can win CS and sometimes they can beat BS too as long as the RX8 doesn't get revved up on a course where it doesn't have to slow down to the bottom of second gear.

Why don't we combine DS and GS since the pax is now inverted and the Mini beats the TypeR at almost EVERY event they go to together??? put a bunch of cars that are now classed in GS into HS. There is the precious class I guess we need since we can't make another stock class. But! Maybe the MiniS is protected or something??? GS really does beat DS at almost every event. CS only beats BS at some events...

It wouldn't hurt the event to have another class. Heck! We could spread workers more effectively.

FM

Is there a limitation on the number of classes? I don't understand why one has to be sacrificed.

there are a lot of people who feel that there are too many classes already.
adding another class would just dilute the available number of drivers even more.
look at your local events and divisionals and see all the one driver classes for an example.
so the SEB is reluctant to add another class just to be adding another class.

i don't have a big problem with adding the top dogs from CS to BS and the rest
of the pack to ES. But i doubt the new SS will make any reasonable numbers, which
i've already communicated to my local SAC member. i guess a letter to the SEB is
in order...

now, if they just eliminate the "L" classes then we got wiggle room! :rollingla

imho I think SuperDuperStock, as I like to call it, would be a big flop.
It is funny how at the natls town hall every year half the people say there are to many classes, and the other half say there are not enough.... I guess that means we are just right. :) If you look at numbers from recent years the only area of growth it ST, so adding more stock classes would do just as you said and deplete the fields. I remember my first year at natls having 60+ cars and not being in biggest class. Now the norm is 40ish, I don't want to see it go lower.

Perhaps it is because I run Chicago and Milwaukee regions but I think that the CS overdogs are superior to my RX8. I will admit that I run against the likes of the Borowski sisters, Chris Fenter and Vandermmey which has me seeing things in a specific light. However, I have driven an MSR and rode in a Solsti. They feel MUCH more stable than my 8. Looking at Tour results, seems to confirm this. Top times of BS vs. CS is mostly lopsided towards CS times. The events I have been at has had weather as a factor, so I don't really know.

What happened in San Diego, Jason? It seems to me that event would be the best tell all but the numbers are very lopsided.

At Packwood, BS beat CS by over .6 sec. BS ran second heat, CS third. So the conditions were fairly similar. This was a course that let the rotary stretch it legs, but it also had lots of long sweepers, which the Solstice should be faster at, given it's lower weight & identical tire/wheel package.

I know Joe Goeke can win PAX in NW Region when he has a good day. Probably course dependent, however.

Having said all that, I'm used to fastmike beating me, straight time, in his Solstice. But I'm not a contender for the national title (yet), so that doesn't mean much.

The most recent events, Divisionals in San Diego and El Toro, I beat Ryan in SD and he got me at ET.

I still think the perception is BS cars are faster, and you would see a big decline of CS cars.

Interesting. I would have sworn the other way around. In fact, I have been all but swearing in the Chicago forums. :dunno:

Perhaps I should better spend my time trying to figure out why my car feels like a rowboat compared to the Solsti and MSR I have been in. The dust will settle soon enough and Topeka will make for the best comparison if the weather plays right.

The key word in Jason's statement is perception. IMHO - the 99' Sport and MS-R are very, very close in performance to the RX8 and I think recent results have backed this up. It will be interesting to see how the Borowski's Solstice will fair this year. To my knowledge, it's the first ZOK package car with Koni doubles and a past Nat'l Champ at the wheel. Tucker's had a front row seat to the results so far this season, which have been very impressive.

Chris H

Exactly, perception.... People need to remember that BS typically has some very tight battles. CS on the other hand has typically been a @ss whooping. So right away many CS guys feel like they cant keep up because they already get killed in CS. If Ryan would not have won last year in the 99' you would have heard all the NB owners crying about how slow the car is, just like they did in 06' when the Sol was 1 & 2.

It's not so much the '99 Sport I'm scared of in BS... it's Ryan. :lol2:

Actually I think the MSR might be top dog in a combined BS/CS on the majority of courses. Just based on what I've observed. I haven't driven one yet.

What I'm more worried about is ES going away altogether. Numbers remain strong so far, so with any luck we'll have a few more years of good cheap fun. :)

there goes the neighborhood ...

I'm more scared of Ryan (pick an alien) in a ZOK.

The beauty of the 99' Sport is lots of them are available and they are easy to build and cheap to maintain just like the rest of E-stock. I sold mine, with wheels/tires, shocks etc for less than $10K two years ago. That's not a big jump from the current cost of a top E-stock ride. I'm not advocating either change, just pointing
out that B-stock could be dominated by the Solstice (IMHO) and E-stock would not die if the 99' was moved down. Another thought would be to move the non-MSR, MX5 to E-stock, where it's performance is better matched to the class, not an E-stock killer but a competitive place for the car to play.

Chris H
2004 - C-stock Nationals runner-up 99' Miata
2006 - C-stock ProSolo Finale runner up, Solstice ZOK
2007 - B-stock Nationals 4th Place, RX-8

Agreed. Same wheel width as the RX-8, more camber adjustment, 200lbs lighter, shorter wheelbase, more torque...

[QUOTE=Zoom4Three;2608657]I'm more scared of Ryan (pick an alien) in a ZOK.


Agreed. We have been blessed in Chicago/ Milwaukee with some exceptional talent to watch. This year it has been more than interesting to watch 2 time Nat. champ Bartek Borowski in a ZOK going head to head against National Champ Chris Fenter in a MSR. It has been tight so far but Bart has been doing a lot of tire switching. I think that he is getting the car dialed in finally and is starting to dominate. Fenter is not happy with their limited wheel size/ tire selection.

Now if we can merge the Mazdas together and get a RX8 with a port installed MSR kit......:yumyum:

If that's the case, be very, very afraid this year. I spoke with Pedroza at the SW Divisional last weekend, and he mentioned that a certain west coast guy would probably be co-driving his new MS-R (the ex Wilcox car) at nationals this year. :icon_no2:

Here's my suggestion: combine B & C Stock, and leave E Stock alone. I used to be a proponent of moving the '99s down to E Stock, but it has shown to be a solid class that still seems to have growth potential. Then, combine D & G Stock, and move some of the also-rans down to H Stock. Now we've got room to add SuperDuper Stock and Tweener Stock (current Super Stock also-rans).

Here's why I suggest these things: while I certainly don't have the money to play in SuperDuper Stock, it certainly would be fun to watch. Let's face it - there are plenty of people who seem to have the means to buy $70k+ cars to play in parking lots, from all of the GT3s, C6 Z06s and Vipers I see. It may not rival today's Super Stock for field size next year, but it will be a growth class.

On the other hand, i think Tweener Stock has a lot of growth potential. There are a lot of really cool, reasonably priced sports cars out there today that are too too slow to compete in Super Stock, but too fast for A Stock. Which has more growth potential, Tweener Stock and SuperDuper Stock, or today's C Stock and D/G Stock? I'll vote for the former.

Another vote for merging BS/CS and DS/GS and making SSS and Tweener stock.

The course dependancy of the MS-R and Solstice to beat the RX8 sounds like the S2k in AS to me.

If tweener stock happens, my rx8 will go out the door as soon as I can find a nice 996. Have you guys seen the huge depreciation on 996s? About the only car with worse depreciation than my rx8!

As much as I like some of these cars, I'm not sure I see the case for a tweener class here. If you believe the PAX index (blah, blah, meaningless, blah), the differences between SS, AS, BS, and CS are about 0.5 sec each on a 40 second course. Given variations in driver, course, etc., if these cars really can't run reasonably competetively with the Z06/Lotus/GT3 in SS, then they should be in AS already.

Non-Z06 C5 and non-GT3 996. Two examples of fun-to-drive, reasonably priced cars that cannot compete with the Z06 & GT3, yet are too fast to be in the current A Stock. Plenty of other cars fit into this mold as well (Z4 M Coupe, 987 Boxster S, Cayman S, etc.)

Not to be argumentative, but how much faster is a fully prepped, well driven Z06 than a fully prepped, well driven 996, and how much faster is the 996 than an S2000?

I think the difference is within run-to-run or driver-to-driver repeatability, but the real situation is that no one will invest the money to find out when they percieve that there is a significant difference.

Hell, people on this forum are debating whether mounting their exhaust on the left or the right will give them 2 tenths! :lol:

You can look at past results and get an idea... Multi time champ Matt Murray ran a 996 911 (non GT-3) at the 2004 natls. 15th in SS. FWIW his time would have put him 2nd in AS (if all things were equal those days).

I think there is enough gap between SS and AS for another class, with a great mix of cars. I know I would think about going there..... Now the question is with what??? C5 (non-Z), 996 911 :) , RX-7tt. That would be my short list of cars I could get cheap and go fast in.

This is what I posted on the SCCA forums board:

My vote: short term, do nothing. BS is strong and becoming increasingly affordable for the "spec car" with the underwhelming resale of RX8's, ES is growing like a weed and CS will mend itself, once the players sort themselves out...

The only REAL reason, based on currently available cars, to consider "uber stock" is to allow the SC Loti a place to play in stock...which is not enough reason to disrupt multiple apple carts.

And, regarding the timing of a possible XS/uber stock class:

And, as others have said, at the entry level price point we are talking about (approx. $75k, ready to go), I can't imagine this type of class as a "build it and they will come" type of proposition...no one is going to step up and do the experimentation and work to see if the next $100k+ SuperZoomy GT is going to be a player. Give these new cars some time to clarify both their capability and resale market value and then you might have enough data to make a decision. It's one thing to buy a four year old GT3 for $75-80k, knowing it works and can be resold for $65-70k at anytime...it's another to buy a new ZR-1 at $125k and not know if it will work or if it will hold any value...

The other thing is, with the current thinking going on at the major manufacturers (global economic concerns, cost of gasoline, demand for various product types) it may very well be that there aren't that many new SuperZoomy GT's in the planning stages, which further takes away any sense of urgency in making this XS/uber classing decision...

funny that we made excuse after excuse on why not to combine all the Minis together the last several years out of fear of disenfanchising owners, but now have these proposals on the table

a vibration is a motion that can't make up it's mind on which way to go, also see SEB/SAC .... :lol2:

Damn! Jason beat me to it! I knew I should have kept the 7!
Although if I did, the'd do the tweener but leave the TT with the ZO6 class anyway:banghead:

I agree 110%. I also believe that CS will grow if given time. The ZOK has not been around long enough to have big numbers. It will with time.

The one thing that needs to be said, whatever your vote, the only way it will count is by writing a letter to the SEB, seb@scca.com I did.

I'm also in agreement with mwood. CS currently has 28 registered while FS sits at 27 -- I don't see anyone fretting about the numbers in the FS.

I personally feel a tweener class between SS and AS would be better subscribed than a new uber stock. However, most of the cars that would go into this tweener class should probably be in AS already! :lol:

I'll write my letter this week.

Put the TTRX in a class between AS and SS and I would bring mine out of mothballs to run it.
FM

You could not beat a C4 in yours, not much of a chance in a faster class. :stickpoke :FIREdevil

I was wondering when he'd be back to receive his just comeupance regarding Packwood predictions :wink2:

There's no way the Slobalt was going to run with us on the Packwood courses, but FM also had reason for being off his game...kind of like my story on day two at the Pro, it is hard to dial in when you have external situations to deal with that are far more important than autocross...well, unless you're a Michael Schumaker or similar...

it wasn't just for himself, but the entire NW All Dominating Autox Team

the Slobalt was dead meat in DS long before Mike hopped in one, anybody who's watched Strelnicks run the 135 knows this ...

+1 I saw Beth & Erik run the car at the Toledo Pro and was duly impressed!!! :cool:

I'll steal some lines from Baghead himself:
Uh...We were testing some stuff out this weekend and figured a few things out..
Car wasn't working right...
We had a shock problem(ok...that part is true!).
+ as OneDayMike said, some stuff going on familywise that is getting better now:) . Is that enough excuses?

I am impressed that on SCCAforums pick the winner thing(if it is on the internet, it must true)DS has the most "pick to win" people over 10 votes in an open class.
I don't think anyone knows what is going to happen. Hey! We might get our butts kicked but we might not.

I think I could do ok in my ol' TTRX nowadays..Learned a few things since Mr Ullose put me in the club like 8 years ago with his C4. I don't think I would have been able to run with Mr. McWOW at the Pro though. He was cooking.

FM

OH! Beth was mad at the 135 at Packwood. Sure slaloms well though. Some other elements, it didn't look as good..

My bet is that even if Tweener Stock became a reality, the FD would remain in Super Stock, much for the same reason it hasn't been moved down to A Stock (too old, too rare, too hard to find an unmolested one).

That doesn't stop me from missing my old '93...

I'm seriously contemplating picking up an Elise (non-SC) for next year in SS.

Separately, I agree that a tweener class would be fantastic. As mentioned, there are a ton of fun cars right in the middle that really need a tweener class to play in, because they have nowhere useful right now.

Letter sent to the SEB in support of the above.

If an uber stock is created, it should not be done by disrupting the current BS, CS & ES classes. A supplemental class should be created instead.

Update: Got my log book # from Brian Harmer. That was quick! :eek: