RX8 vs s2000
 

Hi im a new member and own the mazda3 GT (S) model.
My question is my brother wants to get the 6sp RX8. I been on s2000 forums and of course the not as knowlegeable ones that are die hard believe that the s2000 is a god of all cars and nothing can compare to its perfection. My question is Stock for Stock which car will handle better on a track.
Asuming the drivers are equal?

Thanks!

Depends on the track...it would be damn close though if the track was pretty twisty

S2000....hands down.

I would give the slight edge to the S2000 because it is a 2 seater & weighs a few hundred pounds less. The new 2004 S2000's don't handle as knife edge as the previous models. I have raced a few S2000, and actaully had a chance to drive one around the track, they really do handle well, but the previous versions you are sticking to the track and then you go right over the edge and into the dirt. The RX8 is a bit more neutral. The limits aren't quite as high, but you will feel the chassis when it is going. It is more progressive.

Oh it's hands down the S2000. It's lighter and faster, and outhandles an rx8 rather easily. Then agian it outhandles most cars easily. However, it is built more for that level of performance, whereas the rx8 compromises for comfort, and is a much more forgiving car. I test drove an s2000, and that sucker was a rock, and you could really feel it's potential at a track. For daily use though, it just did not suit me. I really do like that car though.

Reason I asked is alot of people mostly die hard s2000 fans wil say it will kill the Rx8.
I saw a Jap video with the top jap drivers with the A Spec RX8, RSX type-R, s2000, alfa romeo, golf r6?, and another car. Have any of you seen it before?
Well they had the RSX- type R at the back then the s2000 then the RX8 in fron and so on. The out come was the RX8 won the race. The RX8 had the best lap was 1.3 sec faster then the s2000 meaning each lap it gained close to that 1.3 sec ahead giving it about a 5 sec lead at the finish from the s2000 in second place. If you watch the video you can see the S2000 driver really pushing it hard almost in some cases bouncing off the redline to keep as close as possible to the rx8. Also at a turn the RX8 handled it well and the s2000 driver from keeping close and pushing it didnt realize the car would not handle that corner well and went off the track for a bit.

When I compare cars I mean JAP vs JAP not USDM watered down we get.

So I dont understand why there is so much hype with the S2000, i know its a great car but to me it should be equal to the RX8 or less. From what I see its less.

Correct me if im wrong. I also have the video if anyone would like to view it?
I dont belive the motor trend crap or us reviews on cars there not acurate and the drivers are not professional IMO in how each car needs to be drivin to achieve its potential. Also most import fans are toward Honda so they favor it more casuing blindside to other cars real potential.
why do you guys think the Jap RX8 is less of a contender to the Jap S2000?
Shouldnt we be comparing the JAP spec cars to each other instead of the water downed ones to water down others in its class?

Seen the video also. Stock for Stock the s2000 will have the edge. IMO not a big kill but then again a kill is a kill. So yes s2000 is better for track. Rx8 better for all around IMO.

i love my 8 and i love the 2k2. actually it was one of my choices when i was going to buy a car. but it costs a tad more and a 2 seater. so of course i got the 8. they do look similiar. very similiar (front/rear end). but in twisties, hands down 2k2.

That was the Best Motoring Vid, I think it was called Rotary Revenge. I'm pretty sure that that RX-8 had a few suspension upgrades. The S2000 around most tracks is the faster car, but it will not trounce the 8. Like said earlier in the thread the newer S2000 is not quite the same car as the previous generation, but Honda did a heck of a job with the engineering of that car. All in all, these cars are too different to really compare. A 4 seater and a 2 seater roadster are hardly similar. It's nice to know though, that the 8 is mentioned with one of the nicest sports cars ever built.
:D

Is he using it for daily driving? The difference is minimal enough to consider the daily driving aspect. I love both cars, but a two seater would get tiresome quick for me especially when you can get 4 seats at nearly the same performance. 8 uses more fuel, S is higher on insurance and your not going to get an S for what i paid for my 8. Over 6K less with the sport package. If he needs the works such as leather, nav, etc. then i would say he is looking for more of a daily driver and he can still get the 8 GT loaded less then the S. Does the S even come with DCS? I thought I had read that it didn't?

how i decided between the two was the everyday comfort level. my friend has an s2k and i had the plesure of driving it once. really fun car, fast, and corners good. but if u want to sit leaning back, u gotta move the seat close so that the stearing wheel is all up on ur cheast. if u want leg room, u gotta sit up really straight cuz theres no room behind the driver seat. suspension on the s2k didn't feel as comfy as the 8 either. but i think if u only want a track car, then s2k would be way to go, cuz it has better pickup in low rpm then 8. i love my 8 though, and i'm taking it out to track this sunday so i'll tell u if i run into any s2k's there. :p

You need to take a look at the older video where the stock cars duked it out, the RX-8 got beaten pretty badly by the S2K. The video you saw was not jap spec cars, they were modded cars.

is he actually going to be using it for racing?? or does he just want a car that has the "street cred"? having owned both vehicles (traded in the s2k for the rx-8)..i can tell you exactly what you would want for each situation.... the rx-8 beating the s2k in EVERY area...except a SLIGHT margin on the track... i can also tell you that with a few well bought upgrades..(sway bars, flywheel, ....greddy...) or a better driver.. you will have no problem besting one on the track....

if you need any more info..let me know. i do miss the convertable part of it..but i have to tell you...you have a bigger smile on your face when 3 hot chicks are in the car telling you how neat the car is....instead of one right next to you that is straining to hear the weak-a$$ stock radio over the wind noise..

oh yeah..how big is he? if he's anything over 5'10"...the s2k is not for him..

No..it doesn't.. and if you are not a good driver in any kind of wet/slippery weather.. whew... let's just say you will come home with white knuckles...

Thanks, thats what I thought. Overpriced compared to what all you can get in the 8 imo.

saw that video, but i think that is because s2k driver was really good. I just got back from track today, s2k's are really fast. I was the only rx8 out there. my fastest lap time was 1.47. fastest s2k all modded up prolly got 1.30 - 135. heres a link to the track i ran in. http://www.willowspringsraceway.com/...ation/maps.asp.
A lancer evo spun out and flipped at least 10 feet in the air. lucky the roll cage saved his life and plus the car landed on the truck instead of the hood. it was pretty shocking to witness. the driver had some mean ass memory loss but he was ok. for those of u that have never raced in a track, u must try it. it was seriously the most fun i ever had in my life. i'm hooked!

Ok, I know this is an RX-8 board, but let's get facts straight here.

I've driven both cars in competition (the S2000 at the national level for two years), and I can tell you it will take more than sway bars and a flywheel for an RX-8 to be the S2000's equal on a track. I don't know what Greddy part you're referring to, but unless it's a supercharger or turbo, it won't do it either. The S2000 is more noticeably more powerful than the RX-8, and has much better body control. Stock for stock, off of the top of my head, the only performance advantages the RX-8 has are its wider wheels and potentially brakes (the S2000's stock pads aren't track-suitable, but that's easily rectified by replacing them with more race-oriented pieces).

The reigning SCCA Solo 2 B Stock national champion is well over six feet tall.

I call BS. If you're a straight up bad driver and/or you're driving stupidly fast in the rain, then yes, you'll come home with white knuckles if you're driving an S2000. I'd argue that you shouldn't be driving any sports car if you fit into either of these categories. Otherwise, you'll be fine, especially in an '04-'05 car.

I think the RX-8's a better all-around car than the S2000 by dint of its practicality and (relative) refinement, but judged solely by the clock, it's not in the S2000's league.

Steve

What I find amazing is the fact that the RX-8 with 4 doors is so close to the S2000 in performance. The difference on a track really isn't that much. On the street it wouldn't even become an issue. Brakes are better on the 8, everything else? The S2000 has it beat - but 1 - lack of rear seats. With suspension suited for comfort, and 4 seats? Hats off to the RX-8 designers for getting this thing so right.

The S2000 was created for more of a single purpose - lightweight roadster. I'd love to have one! But I'd most likely go for something with torque like a vette. The S2K and Rx-8 engines are too similar to have both cars. Both you have to wind up over 5K to get anything resembling acceleration. Simple physics - there is no better way of generating torque than displacement.

If speed is so important - why not go buy an EVO and take the difference between it and the S2K in minor upgrades. The difference between a slightly modifierd EVO & S2K would be greater than the S2K and the 8.

All hail the EVO for being stupid fast in most every type of surface or track layout.

But the renesis is just too sweet to ignore. For the 99% of seat time on the road rather than the track - the 8 is best bet.

If it's all about just track performance - why not go out and buy a track specific car?

Steve (PedalFaster) is right on with his evaluation of the two cars.

My wife and I own both cars, so I have a chance on a daily basis to compare the two. If what you want is an elemental two-seat roadster with superb performance at an affordable price, you can't do better than the S2000, including the newer ones, which work just fine in all ways, and are much easier to take as a daily driver. If you want a four-seat, four door coupe which performs admirably at a very attractive price, the RX-8 should be high on your list.

I am amazed at how often these two cars are compared, when they are in fact such different cars. On the RX-8 board, the S2000 often is discounted; on the S2000 board, the RX-8 is frequently trashed. They are both excellent cars, and excellent values, but they are really quite different. For my tastes, I enjoy driving the S2000 _much_ more than the RX-8, unless we need to haul a bunch of stuff, or more than two people. But for pure driving, for me, the S2000 is decisively more attractive.

Mazda has done a great job with the RX-8, but it is not close to equal to the S2000 in performance in competition. Heck, they are in different classes in autocross--The RX-8 is B-Stock, while the S2000 just got bumped up to A-Stock. On the street, if you are driving legally, they are more similar, but I still prefer the nimbleness and responsiveness of the S2000.

Oh, and I was amused by the assertion that the S2000 isn't suitable for a driver over 5'10". I'm 6'2", and I fit just fine in my S2000, but my head brushes the roof of our RX-8. I fit in the S2000, with the top up, wearing a helmet, but I couldn't possibly fit in the RX-8 with a helmet.

Ok...first of all.. facts? based on who..you? :rolleyes: i'm not going to argue with you.. i'm simply telling the man a very educated opinion of an OWNER of an S2000... hard to argue..but i guess your trying. that's awesome you drove one on a circuit. I have too. i bet you had fun.. but you probably did not use it for everyday driving i would assume..please correct me if i'm wrong..(and i know you would). that is what i'm basing this upon..everyday driving. unless he plans to get it for track..which i asked and wasn't answered..i am giving everyday driving opinions from a former OWNER...not a guy that had it for 2 hour stints at a time.

2nd..i understand...since again..i OWNED an s2000 that it is STOCK better on the track.. i also do know that with a few well added mods it is EASILY equal to a stock S2000.. you can argue that all you want will do no good if it's aimed in my direction..because i know the abilities of both.

"The reigning SCCA Solo 2 B Stock national champion is well over six feet tall"...well that awesome. good for him. i have had many friends drive the s2k and all of them 5'10" and over..complained about how tight and cramped it was..lack of leg room..etc.. there again..basing my advice on actual experience.. My friend Zac who is 6'3" can drive the s2k......doesn't mean he enjoys being that cramped.

the white knuckles..hmm.. that's nice you can call "b.s." but you based that upon your driving experience.. who am i to know how this guy drives? i am simply stating it is not the easiest to drive in those conditions..and if you don't think so....i know you don't know the s2k that well. again..that was based on actual EXPERIENCE with a friend that was a little less experienced than myself driving it in the rain...especially on left handed turns from a stop into heavy traffic.

these are my opinions based on a wealth of experience dealing with both these cars.. u can choose to value them or not..i could care less..in the end it's him buying the car and finding out for himself anyways.

and i'll just let you finish it off..."I think the RX-8's a better all-around car than the S2000" i think that's what this guy really wants to know.

next time why don't you just post your opinion eh? instead of bashing others..especially when they know what the hell they are talking about. somethin to think about..esp. if you want to have any credibility or respect on this forum.

The original post asked about use on the track, not on the street. :confused:

He asked, "My question is Stock for Stock which car will handle better on a track.
Asuming the drivers are equal?"

As I said in a previous post, I'm 6'2", and my head brushes the roof of our RX-8, while I can fit in the S2000, with the top up, wearing a helmet.


Next time, why don't you read the original question before you bash someone who answered the question actually asked?

i can read. thanks. read my replies and maybe you'd understand that i was not just trying to answer the "who's better" question..i was looking past it and giving him the overall...so just incase this ISN'T JUST for track purposes...get it?? great. and i'll state the answer i've already given since you seem to have lost it..

"..i understand...since again..i owned an s2000 that it is STOCK better on the track"

..oh and also.. my final .02 when the hell...are the drivers ever equal? i've never seen it. i have run my 8 against the s2k and own it....again..probably the driver difference..but that just shows you how close the 8 really is to the s2k. i hope the original poster finds my opinions of some value..since you and pedalfaster clearly do not..for which..i could give a crap. have a great day!

Steve has my respect and, based on what I know of him, his credibility on these points is about as good as gets...even if I don't always agree with him.

Gee, that's an easy one--The guy is asking whether he will be faster on the track with an RX-8 or an S2000. I'm not a very good autocrosser, and a good autocrosser in an RX-8 beats me in my S2000, but I do better in my S2000 than I would do in the RX-8 (of course, assuming that I could fit in our RX-8 with a helmet, which I can't :p ).

I have driven both I have an 8 and my Dad has a S2000. I say they are 2 different cars. Yes they both redline at 9K. I find his S2000 has a shorter faster throw in the gear changes, alot shorter clutch, and is a convertable (obviously).

My 8 is a well balanced car and runs nose to nose with the s2000. I opted for the 8 because I think of it as more a touring car. It seats 4 and is a little more managable around town.

If you want to see which is better at auto crossing look at the classes I believe this year the scca moved s2000's in to class A and 8's are in B.

This is my opinion, so flame on if you wish.

rx8pilot, here's the original question again:

I did my best to answer that question as stated. If you have questions about the question's wording, take them up with the original poster, not me.

Steve

P.S. - Did I mention that I wrote the S2000 autocross setup FAQ?

Whenever BMI tests the RX8 besides the mazdaspeed video it doesn't do very well at Tsukuba...it seems only Takuya from the BMI staff is the only one that praises the car

I've driven a basically stock S2000 (front bar and hoosiers only) and a basically stock RX-8 (DA Konis and Hoosiers only). The RX-8 felt much more tractable at low RPM. Greg's S2000 would bog horribly unless I launched the thing at 6k like he told me to. Worse, when I did bog it, the clutch would be very soft on the 1-2 shift. Never had that problem in Clyde's car. The torque curve felt much more flat.

The S2000 had excellent steering, great brakes, and adequate power once it was really revving. The RX-8 had those features, too, but you could tell it was hauling around a bit more weight and was more softly sprung. I liked the RX-8 motor a lot more (sound, powerband, NVH).

Overall the RX-8 was the one that put the silly grin on my face and that's why it's the one that I would pick if I had to spend the dollars on one. I have no doubt that a properly prepped stock-class S2000 would wax a properly prepped stock-class RX-8 at an autocross or or on the track. Doesn't matter to me. The RX-8 was just more fun. No idea why.

I don't understand why it always has to be a pissing match. They're both great cars. Get the one you prefer. In a perfect world, I'd have both I suppose.

I had an S2000 before the RX8, and it was certainly a more entertaining car to drive, and was certainly quicker tha the RX8 although on paper the RX8 is marginally faster. I do find however that the RX8 handles much better on the round than the S which had an iritation will to oversteer. The RX8 is much more comfortable to go on a long journey, where as the S was MUCH better on fuel even when driven in the V-Tec 70% of the time. The RX8 cabin is a much nicer place to be, but I miss the S, and I will REALLY miss it when the summer comes!

Based on my experience with the S2K I'd say that might be a product of the clutch just being more worn or maybe an aftermarket clutch. Neither the RX-8 or S2K are the easiest cars to launch, but I was able to get a nice spin and launch on the S2K I drove with what I recall being a 4k-5k launch, it certainly wasn't 6k. I also noticed that wheel hop was never present with the S2K, and just going by others account that's not the case with the RX-8.

RX8pilot, give it up man, this thread is in competition racing, he wanted to know about the cars on a track and posted it here for that reason.

watch Best Motoring videos with a grain of salt ...
 

i didn't really trust the BM videos - i think BM is a biased production.

check out the videos in this thread. it's from 2 friends in an italian road race track with video cameras mounted in their respective RX-8 and S2000 - AWESOME footage. i'm not sure if the link is dead or not though - it's relatively old. if they are dead, drop me a PM and i'll send them to you some how.

the result is no surprise, but it sounds like this is what you're looking for.

i can't wait to get on a racetrack myself.

Neat videos. The RX-8 driver seemed to be a much better driver than the S2000 driver; unlike the S2k driver, the RX-8 driver had clean lines, kept his revs up and didn't brake too early. The speeds seemed very low (assuming speedos read in kph), but it was a curvy track.

Yeah, the racetrack is a blast, and it largely eliminated, for me, any small inclination I might have had to do stupid things on public roads. There simply is nothing you can do on a public road, anything like safely, which will rival the thrill of the track, and it's pretty safe at the track if the track day organizer has taken appropriate precautions, and you don't outdrive your abilities.

It was definitely a stock clutch. Maybe it was worn out.

My point was about the complete lack of torque down low. The RX-8 at least has SOME. :p Come off the cam in an S2k and you have nothing. The RX-8 will still make an effort to pull you out of the corner. Either one makes my M3 feel like a rocketship.

I would really like to drive one of the cars with good shocks that Wynveen, Saini or Hui have/had. Mr. Pedalfaster tells me it's a whole different ballgame.

IkeWRX said it best
Answer - S2000 - no contest.
Are there better track cars than the S2000 for the money? SURE.
Why not open it right up and compare the merits of cars that will trounce an S2000 for the same amount? EVO? STi?
If you are going to have a trailer car - why not just get a shifter kart and be done with it?

I'd like to believe the S2K has the upper hand no matter what track we are talking about.

They should modify the roof on the 8...a la Viper coupe. :cool:

je...they were still Jap Spec cars....slightly modified. :p

Darn, and I liked your first post so much....

This is, of course, nonsense. You "come of the cam" in an S2k at 6000 rpm. My S2k has as much torque from 3000 rpm up as the RX-8 has anywhere, and more from 6,000 up than an RX-8 has anywhere. On the track (as opposed to autox), I am almost never out of VTEC anyway, so that's pretty irrelevant. And it is just as easy to "bog" our RX-8 as our S2000.

Pace yourself. You can declare anything you want, but that doesn't void my experience. Apparently I need to e-mail Greg and tell him his S2k is broken. It's possible! :confused:

All I can say is I've driven both cars. I bogged the launch on the S2k several times during practice runs at the NEDivs. "Bogged" meaning I dumped the clutch at 4k instead of the 6k he suggested. No wheelspin. It was painful waiting for the car to rev from the 2k it "hooked up" at until it came on the cam.

The RX-8 had enough torque that with a "moderate" launch it would spin the tires and stay in a reasonably torquey part of the powerband.

Maybe Clyde's RX-8 is particularly strong and Greg's S2k is particularly weak, but I'm not making this up.

This again comes back to whether this is a question about street driving or competition driving. In the latter case, the comparison of off-cam power (or off-lobe, or whatever it is in a rotary :)) isn't nearly as important since you will very rarely find yourself out of the powerband.

As an aside, though, the initial question was "which will handle better?", whereas the answers have tended towards "which will be faster?" On the handling front, both cars have their weaknesses in stock form. The '00-'03 S2000s are fairly nervous at the limit due to excessive amounts of rear bump steer; they can be driven really quickly, but a lot of people get spooked by the looseness. This problem's fixed to a large extent in the '04-'05 cars; Honda arguably actually overcompensated, as the cars are delivered with zero camber in front, which makes them somewhat pushy. On the bright side, all S2000s are fairly stiff, have good body control / damping, and have unbelievablely good turn-in.

I have much less experience in RX-8s, but from my seat time and talking to other experienced drivers who have driven the car, I'd say it's considerably more forgiving in stock form than at least the early S2000s. Its failing is its lack of body control -- soft springing and damping means it tends to move around a lot in corners and over bumps, and in repeated transitions (e.g. slaloms), it can be a handful when it gets completely unsettled.

The S2000 has a definite learning curve to it -- I think most people would go faster right after jumping into an RX-8 than they would in an S2000. Give an experienced driver time in the S2000, though, and they'll outrun the RX-8.

Steve
- looking forward to the first West Coast B Stock confrontation in under five weeks

I'm looking forward to see what the Tour in El Paso in 3 weeks looks like. :)

--kC

Part of the problem is that you guys are talking about different generations of the car -- s2k has an '04 which has 10% more displacement than the earlier cars.

Having said that, yes, to launch an S2000 aggressively, you need to either dump the clutch above 6000 rpm or slip it significantly.

Steve

I have no problem with you reporting your experience with a particular S2000, but you reported as general fact: "Come off the cam in an S2k and you have nothing." That is pure nonsense, which is why I called it pure nonsense. Look at the dyno sheets for a reasonable set of RX-8s and S2000s, same year car, and you will see that. Sure you can find exceptions, but it's simply not reasonable to make a general statement based on that (especially given how the S2000 has been wildly successful at autocross, nationally, competing in the same class as the RX-8 last year; the S2000 got bumped up a class this year). Head-to-head, in autocross or on a race track, nobody would choose a stock RX-8 over a stock S2000, unless you wanted to bring three of your friends with you, of course. That's not to say that the RX-8 is anything but a fine car, but a typical stock RX-8 is not a better performer on any track than a typical stock S2000.

This gives me an idea for a whole new racing series, Quad Racing. A crew of one driver and three passengers. Similar to bobsled. I'm thinking the RX-8 would be fairly competitive. :)

Yeah, right up until someone invites the brand new M3. :p

Call it what you want. I'll still disagree, at least if you're talking about a pre-'04 car.

Now, as Steve posted, it's possible we're comparing different years. I've never driven the '04 S"2200" so I can't comment on that.

Looking at dyno curves, it appears as though the RX-8 makes a bit more torque down below 4000 RPM than the '01-'03 S2k. Around 10ft-lbs. "in the noise" as far as I'm concerned... not enough samples to know for sure, and I've never seen the two cars back to back on the dyno.

Gearing is the big difference here, S2k. The RX-8's overall gearing in first gear is 16.7:1, and Clyde's weighed 2880lbs. Greg's car is right around 2800 IIRC. The final drive is 4.1:1 with a 3.133 first gear. That gives overall gearing of 12.85:1. I'll grant you that the RX-8's tires were marginally taller, negating that gearing effect somewhat (but IMO not significantly - you do the math, 275/35/18 versus 245/40/16) but given the same torque, approximately the same weight and 16% better gearing, I'll give the edge in low-end torque to the RX-8.

Now, I never denied that the S2000 would be faster at a track, autocross or drag race. It certainly will be! It's lighter, for one thing, and has much better body control. I wouldn't have written my letter to the SEB last year if I thought the RX-8 were as quick on the autocross course. I'm just debating your torque comments here.

In my opinion, numbers are very similar on both cars, but even coming from a 8 owner myself, I still think the s2000 is the overall better car. Around the track the s2k will still have the upper hand no matter what due to its weight and superb handling and not to mention the 200 horses at the rear wheels ,but the rx8 shines in its price and the +2 more seats than the s2k. s2k is the last sports car i would think of buying because of the many other choices. For 32k+ I would go for a fugly STi and get the stupid speed issue over with, but for the overall better sports car rx-8 hands down. 2 very similar cars but in the end its all about personal choice. My 2 cents

I was thinking...in Canada the S2K costs about $10K more than the RX-8

So now...if you could buy an 8 and put $10K worth of mods in it...which would be the better car (performance-wise, on a track)? I don't race cars but I don't think it's a stretch to say the RX-8 would be.

Plus, at the end of the day you have a car that's actually FUNCTIONAL (4 seats, bigger trunk, DSC/TCS, etc.)

Something to think about...

You will have to include a very large can-opener, to take the top down, however. :D

As many have said many times, these are very different cars; no amount of money will give the same driving experience in an RX-8 as in an S2000, and no amount of money will make an S2000 as versatile as an RX-8. Each person has to decide for himself or herself what's important in deciding which car to buy, then drive all candidates, and make their decision.

Or, of course, you could get both. :p

Yeah... and you can go out and buy a VERY good shifter kart for 1/2-1/4 that price with TONNES of spares.

Once you start talking about modifying cars.. you throw everything out the window.

I was looking at a used S2K or a new 8 for 2005 competiton. I think the 8 can be close to the S2k in terms of scooting around a course. But that's just me. I'm crazy for thinking that I think... but it's fun to be crazy.