Matt RX8

I know we all hate these threads but...

I know this very hardcore track guy (30+ track days per year and runs his own school) that says that there is no way a RX-8 can keep up with a E46 BMW (roughly 2000-2005, 2006 for coupe) on a race track in a race. He even says it couldn't keep up with 184 hp 325 (2001-2005) sedan. He says given that both cars have experienced drivers on any track.

Now I am basically a track newbie with only 7 days under my belt (all in the RX-8) but I really can't believe what this guy is saying. I also own an E46 325 vert and have owned an E46 330i before. Now I know that HPDEs are not racing but if I extrapolate from my own experience I find it very hard to believe that the E46 325 would beat an RX-8 in a race on any road course with equal drivers. I've run 6 out 7 of those track days with the local BMW club in their novice and intermediate run groups and I have run with all types of BMWs in run groups where everyone has a similar amount of seat time. Anyway, I've found the RX-8 to be a very capable car, similar in performance to an E36 M3. My car is stock except for the brake fluid and I've passed E36 M3s and E46M3s and also been passed by them, same goes for the E46 330 ZHPs. I can't recall ever being passed by an E46 325. Most of the older BMWs (especially the E36 M3s) that I run with are heavily modded and some are on r comps. And believe me, I'm not a great driver or anything. Just the 7 track days, 12 autocrosses or so and a car control clinic.

Also the RX-8 has won the Grand Am cup ST for the last couple of years, taking first in class in almost half the races where it is competing with the 330.

Am I mistaken to think the RX-8 can beat an E46 325 on a road course with equal and experienced drivers? What can I say to this guy or is he just lost like all of the other piston heads?

zaglo6204

ask for a more formal demonstration.

malfere2

Check out the time the Rx8 posted on Top Gear in comparison to the M3:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/powerlaps/page_2.shtml

Matt RX8

yes, but that is too easy for people to rule out...different track conditions on different days. The RX-8 episode is the best!

I think their just aren't that many really experienced track guys tracking their cars yet here in the midwest. I only know of only 2 other guys that track locally, one has lots of racing experience and the other guy is closer to my level of experience.

BlueEyes

^exactly. You want a comparison which is more realistic....

Hockenheim test times by Sport Auto.
Mazda Rx8 1,19,8 min
Mazda Rx8 Auto 1,23,1 min
Nissan 350z 1,18,7 min
Honda S2000 1,18,9 min
BMW M3 1,16,3 min
BMW M3 SMG 1,18,4 min

The 350Z and 8 were run on the same day, the s2000 and m3 on different days, but similar conditions if memory serves me. Sport Auto is far more reliable source than Top Gear. Certainly not perfect, however. But, a 3 sec difference is not likely due to environment on hockenheim.

The 8 should be able to keep up with the E46 330(C)i on a track. New ones, I don't know about, I think they got a nice power boost.

kw1k

no way man, my friend has a 325ci , so much body roll!

He must be mistaking or something.

BlueEyes

He probably doesn't know much about the 8.

Matt RX8

The E90 330s are now up to 255 hp (up from 225 base or 235 ZHP).

And this guy test drove an RX-8 a few times and has owned like 4 sevens in the past. And I don't think he has ever really driven one on the track but he's probably done some pretty mean test drives since he is such a hardcore track guy.

He's a wierd guy, he's owned about 50 cars yet he's only 30 years old and he's tracked a bunch of them. I've known him for 18 months and he's been all over the map from E46 M3 to 911 and now to GTO...

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

the rx8 1st of all costs thousands less than the bimmer and has more passenger room in the back seats(believe it or not). I have been with BMW's on Roas Atlanta (Track days) and they are not a problem. Where the 8 shines IMO over the bimmer is in it's powerband(large amount of rpm available=less shifting), the braking, and transistions. The bimmer will pull you on the straight and on coming out of a corner. But once you add it all up they are pointing the 8 by. I have owned bimmers in the past and I like those cars.
olddragger

RX8SpdDmn

I've never had a problem with E46 M3s on the track. I've never been passed by one in 4 DEs with my RX-8, yet I've passed every one I've come across.

I hung out with a couple instructors at BeaveRun, this guy Jet is my driving hero. The other guy had a 323i (2.5L motor) with suspension work, but stock powertrain. I feel that we had similar driving styles, as I rode with him and he rode with me, but overall, I have to assume that he's a better driver than me. I had Dunlop SP SS Race tires (not as sticky as his Hoosiers) with Hawk HP+ front and HPS rear pads, ATE Super Blue, and B&B midpipe. You can call our cars equally modded, as their both VERY light mods. So, the conclusion of this is that I passed him with NO problem, quite quickly.

I just wish I could do suspension on my RX-8. It's a lease, so I'm not dumping big money into it. This car does fantastic on the track, even stock. I'd like to add camber and reduce the roll and transition time, though. For a stock car, it's fantastic.

Stop&TurnFreak

The BMW has a higher center of gravity, softer springs, and less rigid swaybars. However, it does have a nice fat torque curve, but it does run out in the higher RPM band. Fact is this, lower center of gravity, and more sport oriented chassis and spring/shock/sway setup is going to equate to a faster car around corners. And despite the fact the torque curve is better in the BMW, on a twisty course, eliminating shifts is good for .25-.50 per shift elimnation. So, RX8's can corner harder, and eliminate shifts.....meaning, unless the track is a drag strip, you should do just fine over a stock 3 series. However the M's are a TOTALLY different story. Few cars in the world have the balance and poise the M3 (M5) bring to the table. Not saying they are unbeatable, because they are not, but you have to be able to push an 8 pretty hard (in stock form) to run an M3 down. Heck, my Evo has trouble with them, and I was making 280whp.

RX8SpdDmn

Read my post above. I've never had a problem with them. Also, although it's not scientific, The Stig (of Top Gear) ran identical times with a stock E46 M3 and RX-8.

Oh, and I've only faced one Evo, but I ran him down, too.

BlueEyes

Read my post above. The 8 was 3 seconds behind an M3 in a far more accurate test than Top Gear. What you've experienced doesn't mean squat unless the other drivers were of equal calibre and were pushing as hard as you. I have passed porsches, corvettes, bmws etc in a nissan nx2000. It doesn't mean it's a faster car.

As I have mentioned many times before, M3 drivers tend to be pretty crappy drivers. I am more than confident on most tracks an M3 could outrun an 8 with ease.

PedalFaster

Go drive an E46 M3 or an Evo and then try coming back here and typing with a straight face that an RX-8 could keep up with either one on any track with meaningful straights. The RX-8's arguably dynamically superior, but it's not enough to make up for the huge power deficit.

Matt RX8

Why is the M3 SMG slower? I thought they were suppossed to turn faster lap times than the 6 speed. Was the other M3 a CSL?

No doubt the M3 could beat the RX-8 on most tracks but the original discussion was whether the RX-8 could beat a 325i on any track.

BlueEyes

I don't think so, the M3 CSL did a 1,13,xx. I cannot remember the conditions that the SMG ran in, it could have been wet. They make note of all the conditions and drivers in their reviews, i'd have to look it up. There was another SMG in the 1,17,xx that I didn't notice, and a 6 speed in the 1,17,xx's as well.

RA-Eight

iTrader: (6)

I've taken an E90 330 w/ sports package on an autoX course and I was not impressed. Suspension was way soft compared to the 8. Seem to be able to power out of the corner but that's about it.

There's a thread out here somewhere where a Bimmer race team took an 8 out and was very impressed, especially when compared to an E46 M. I'll try and find it.

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

one thing i want to have clarification: are we discussing/comparing race-prepped cars or stock, off the showroom cars?? two totally different discussions.

BlueEyes

I understood it as stock cars.

BlueEyes

I don't think BMW tries to build the ultimate parking lot machine.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

the vehicle in question is an E46 325, not E46 M3. I 've prepared and raced a number of BMWs. The E46 325 does not have an LSD which causes wheelspin issues at the track. Your friend is mistaken. The RX-8 handles better and has better acceleration than the 325. No surprise, the 325 is heavier, 3200+ lbs and the 2.5L engine output is 177 hp. All else being equal, an RX-8 6 speed will clearly win.

BlueRenesis82

strike 2 for German engineering!

BlueEyes

What strike?

RA-Eight

iTrader: (6)

True, but I'm not sure even BMW knows what ultimate driving is anymore either! With all their electronic gadgets and gizmos might as well let the car drive itself. (but that's another thread)

Still searching for that article, I think it was a Turner Motorsports driver who gave a rave review.

BlueEyes

Try searching team WTF. I think that's who wrote it. I disagree about hte electronic gadgets, it has no more than the 8 and they can all be turned off. Unlike a certain other german manufacturer *cough* mercedes *cough*.