Rx-8 as a track-car
08-30-2011, 12:02 PM
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Rx-8 as a track-car
Hi,
First post from Sweden, so be gentle
I have found a Rx-8 (Right hand) that I can by for almost no money and I thought, heyy... Lets build a race-car!!
I was thinking of stripping the car out of everything from the wheel and back with just two race seats and a roll bar.
First question: How many kg (itīs okey to use your weird units to
) do you think I can stip out?
As a start I was thinking of:
Strip the car
Coilovers
Racing..hmm.. Do you say Tyres or Tires?!
Front and rear sway bars
catalytic converter
I donīt think I can get it as fast straight as my STi -04 but itīs not what I am looking for... I want to go fast around our boring tracks in Sweden and have a lot of fun!
What do you think? Iīm sure that you have many good tips to me! :D
First post from Sweden, so be gentle
I have found a Rx-8 (Right hand) that I can by for almost no money and I thought, heyy... Lets build a race-car!!
I was thinking of stripping the car out of everything from the wheel and back with just two race seats and a roll bar.
First question: How many kg (itīs okey to use your weird units to
) do you think I can stip out?As a start I was thinking of:
Strip the car
Coilovers
Racing..hmm.. Do you say Tyres or Tires?!
Front and rear sway bars
catalytic converter
I donīt think I can get it as fast straight as my STi -04 but itīs not what I am looking for... I want to go fast around our boring tracks in Sweden and have a lot of fun!
What do you think? Iīm sure that you have many good tips to me! :D
08-30-2011, 12:06 PM
#2
Contact fastlaneracing.com via Pm, he is from sweden and regularly tracks his rx8 with a bunch of other rotorheads
Your list is ok, add ignition coils and an accessport to tune it!
Bucket seats (and cage if it's a track only car) shed A LOT of weight too.
You can easily take away 100kg of useless stuff.
Your list is ok, add ignition coils and an accessport to tune it!
Bucket seats (and cage if it's a track only car) shed A LOT of weight too.
You can easily take away 100kg of useless stuff.
08-30-2011, 12:22 PM
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Contact fastlaneracing.com via Pm, he is from sweden and regularly tracks his rx8 with a bunch of other rotorheads
Your list is ok, add ignition coils and an accessport to tune it!
Bucket seats (and cage if it's a track only car) shed A LOT of weight too.
You can easily take away 100kg of useless stuff.
Your list is ok, add ignition coils and an accessport to tune it!
Bucket seats (and cage if it's a track only car) shed A LOT of weight too.
You can easily take away 100kg of useless stuff.
Thank you!!
Yes, off course 2 light weight seats.
Why the coils? Are the OEM bad?
Good! That will make the car like 1200kg ?
I think it will be great on the track as a starter.. Then maybe a SC in two years or so
Do you think I have to remap it? Even when Iīm running N/A?
08-30-2011, 12:28 PM
#4
OEM coils fail early, especially when abused.
If it's a track car also consider an higher oil pressure regulator and a better waterpump.
A lightweight flywheel and dekka 18lbs battery work wonders as well.
The rx8 is a great car to bring around a track. It lacks something like 100hp to be competitive on the straights though.
1200kg with a cage is possible, it requires some effort to get there though. It's expensive too as most of the parts that may help you lose weight are the intake, headers and exhaust. They don't do much power wise though
You can save 9 other kgs with a set of 2pcs floating brake discs. 1200$ for 9kg is a lot for most, considering that our stock brakes are excellent already when paired to the right brake pads.
Again, Ingemar will be able to seriously help you! I will give you his email via pm.
If it's a track car also consider an higher oil pressure regulator and a better waterpump.
A lightweight flywheel and dekka 18lbs battery work wonders as well.
The rx8 is a great car to bring around a track. It lacks something like 100hp to be competitive on the straights though.
1200kg with a cage is possible, it requires some effort to get there though. It's expensive too as most of the parts that may help you lose weight are the intake, headers and exhaust. They don't do much power wise though
You can save 9 other kgs with a set of 2pcs floating brake discs. 1200$ for 9kg is a lot for most, considering that our stock brakes are excellent already when paired to the right brake pads.
Again, Ingemar will be able to seriously help you! I will give you his email via pm.
08-30-2011, 12:47 PM
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Thank you again!
I have talked to Ingemar, and he was very nice and helped me. But itīs always good to get as much info as possible.
After the upgrades I was talking about I think next step is lighter wheels
I think I will add the coils you are talking about to my list and then just drive and have as much fun as possible!
I am little afraid of the engine tho.. As long as you keep it NA itīs reliable I guess?
I will go easy on the engine and donīt make to many laps at a time.. Cool it allot
I have talked to Ingemar, and he was very nice and helped me. But itīs always good to get as much info as possible.
After the upgrades I was talking about I think next step is lighter wheels
I think I will add the coils you are talking about to my list and then just drive and have as much fun as possible!
I am little afraid of the engine tho.. As long as you keep it NA itīs reliable I guess?
I will go easy on the engine and donīt make to many laps at a time.. Cool it allot
08-30-2011, 03:05 PM
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The chassis & handling on these cars is really good, good enough to make up for a pretty signifigant horsepower difference I feel. I've been really impressed with the times I've seen run with these cars without alot of horsepower upgrades.
Besides, straightaways are for fast cars. Corners are for fast drivers!
Besides, straightaways are for fast cars. Corners are for fast drivers!
08-31-2011, 12:29 AM
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The chassis & handling on these cars is really good, good enough to make up for a pretty signifigant horsepower difference I feel. I've been really impressed with the times I've seen run with these cars without alot of horsepower upgrades.
Besides, straightaways are for fast cars. Corners are for fast drivers!
Besides, straightaways are for fast cars. Corners are for fast drivers!
I donīt doubt that at all.. The car seems to handle great! Thats thy I started to look at it from the beginning
But I have a stock STi with coilovers and racing tyres and I want to stop abusing that car on the track and have another car just for that So the rear seats, speakers, boot, extra wheel etc will stay home What kind of brake-pads do you recommend ? I will keep the car on a low budget and thinking of only replace the pads.. maybe discs in the future.
The engine will stay near stock until iīm ready with the chassis, but I gues the catalytic converter will prevent me from blowing the cat out. Right?
And if itīs adds a little more umpf, thats great to of course!
08-31-2011, 08:13 AM
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Do anyone know if there is a built-tread like what I am about to do? Always fun to watch and will probably make my work faster I have tried, but without finding one :/
If there is a project tread with anyone stripping his car, that would be great to!! :D
I have tried, but without finding one :/If there is a project tread with anyone stripping his car, that would be great to!! :D
08-31-2011, 10:38 AM
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This thread is a good start if you haven't seen it yet:
https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-racing-25/weight-stock-rx8-parts-81791/ (weight of stock RX-8 parts)
I think ~1200kg is fairly attainable given the amount of weight reduction you're looking to do.
Going with 17" wheels will be lighter and cheaper as well. There are plenty of nice tire sizes for 17x9 or 17x10 wheels. Dropping the overall tire diameter by an inch or so will also increase acceleration a bit by simulating shorter gearing.
If you're looking for "build threads" of similar track cars, try googling "TTD RX-8". TTD is a popular time trial class in NASA for the RX-8 and you can find a lot of videos and information from there.
The RX-8 is a great platform and much better suited to handling compared to the STI. As long as you keep up on maintenance and address some of the weak points of the car (ie: ignition coils, as mentioned), it shouldn't give you any problems on track.
I wouldn't worry about the Accessport in the beginning for remapping anything. The factory ECU runs the car just fine. Getting rid of the cat will help avoid any issues on track with it getting extremely hot, and a lightweight exhaust just saves some weight. There isn't much power to pick up, so put that money towards good shocks and tires instead.
Brake pads can be a bit of a personal preference. If there is a brand you favored on the STI it will likely do well for the RX-8 as well. I personally like Carbotech, but there are lots of choices for track pads.
https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-racing-25/weight-stock-rx8-parts-81791/ (weight of stock RX-8 parts)
I think ~1200kg is fairly attainable given the amount of weight reduction you're looking to do.
Going with 17" wheels will be lighter and cheaper as well. There are plenty of nice tire sizes for 17x9 or 17x10 wheels. Dropping the overall tire diameter by an inch or so will also increase acceleration a bit by simulating shorter gearing.
If you're looking for "build threads" of similar track cars, try googling "TTD RX-8". TTD is a popular time trial class in NASA for the RX-8 and you can find a lot of videos and information from there.
The RX-8 is a great platform and much better suited to handling compared to the STI. As long as you keep up on maintenance and address some of the weak points of the car (ie: ignition coils, as mentioned), it shouldn't give you any problems on track.
I wouldn't worry about the Accessport in the beginning for remapping anything. The factory ECU runs the car just fine. Getting rid of the cat will help avoid any issues on track with it getting extremely hot, and a lightweight exhaust just saves some weight. There isn't much power to pick up, so put that money towards good shocks and tires instead.
Brake pads can be a bit of a personal preference. If there is a brand you favored on the STI it will likely do well for the RX-8 as well. I personally like Carbotech, but there are lots of choices for track pads.
08-31-2011, 03:51 PM
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This thread is a good start if you haven't seen it yet:
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=81791 (weight of stock RX-8 parts)
I think ~1200kg is fairly attainable given the amount of weight reduction you're looking to do.
Going with 17" wheels will be lighter and cheaper as well. There are plenty of nice tire sizes for 17x9 or 17x10 wheels. Dropping the overall tire diameter by an inch or so will also increase acceleration a bit by simulating shorter gearing.
If you're looking for "build threads" of similar track cars, try googling "TTD RX-8". TTD is a popular time trial class in NASA for the RX-8 and you can find a lot of videos and information from there.
The RX-8 is a great platform and much better suited to handling compared to the STI. As long as you keep up on maintenance and address some of the weak points of the car (ie: ignition coils, as mentioned), it shouldn't give you any problems on track.
I wouldn't worry about the Accessport in the beginning for remapping anything. The factory ECU runs the car just fine. Getting rid of the cat will help avoid any issues on track with it getting extremely hot, and a lightweight exhaust just saves some weight. There isn't much power to pick up, so put that money towards good shocks and tires instead.
Brake pads can be a bit of a personal preference. If there is a brand you favored on the STI it will likely do well for the RX-8 as well. I personally like Carbotech, but there are lots of choices for track pads.
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=81791 (weight of stock RX-8 parts)
I think ~1200kg is fairly attainable given the amount of weight reduction you're looking to do.
Going with 17" wheels will be lighter and cheaper as well. There are plenty of nice tire sizes for 17x9 or 17x10 wheels. Dropping the overall tire diameter by an inch or so will also increase acceleration a bit by simulating shorter gearing.
If you're looking for "build threads" of similar track cars, try googling "TTD RX-8". TTD is a popular time trial class in NASA for the RX-8 and you can find a lot of videos and information from there.
The RX-8 is a great platform and much better suited to handling compared to the STI. As long as you keep up on maintenance and address some of the weak points of the car (ie: ignition coils, as mentioned), it shouldn't give you any problems on track.
I wouldn't worry about the Accessport in the beginning for remapping anything. The factory ECU runs the car just fine. Getting rid of the cat will help avoid any issues on track with it getting extremely hot, and a lightweight exhaust just saves some weight. There isn't much power to pick up, so put that money towards good shocks and tires instead.
Brake pads can be a bit of a personal preference. If there is a brand you favored on the STI it will likely do well for the RX-8 as well. I personally like Carbotech, but there are lots of choices for track pads.
I think i Will go and get the car on sun/mon.. If anyone is interested i can start a new thread With the progress? :D
09-02-2011, 07:06 PM
#14
I am going to contradict some of the above. What I say is based on running the cars in Pro and CLub racing only, and I have ZERO knowledge of the RX8 as a street car. My cars weigh 2650lbs without driver and light fuel and make 225whp on 100 unleaded.
Shocks- forget everything over the counter. Buy the Koni 8212's as speced for Grand AM and enjoy.
Sway Bar- again, forget everythign over the counter. We make our own but you can buy pretty much the same thing from MazdaSpeed
The REAR sway bar is easy, just take the stock one and add Polyurethane bushings and drill a second hole in it near where tha bar tapers from round to flat (about 3/4" from the original) and your done.
Coils- I use the stock ones, not a single failure yet. I carry spares, but have not needed one
ECU- forget the AP, not worth the money or hassle. We are using the RacingBeat Race Flash and make more power than all but one other team, and they are using the Motronic 4.3 Motorsports, to the tune of $100K USD. The racing Beat Flash is around $400 USD, pretty easy math.
Exhaust- there is very little difference between the off-the-shelf stuff, but the race header and exhausts are radically different. Eric Meyers in Indy can put you in touch with the right people for this.
Radiator- Ron Davis or C&R, there really is no substitute. Deal directly with Ron Davis or C&R and explain that you are running a track car and they will make you very happy. Also, keep ALL of the factory ducting in place. DO NOT be tempted to re-engineer what Mazda did unless you like replacing motors.
Clutch/flywheel- I use the ACT flywheel/clutch combination, works flawlessly. Eric is using (I think) a tilton multi-disc.
Intake- I build my own intakes, and it is pretty dead simple to do so, just need to be able to weld aluminum. Otherwise, the AEM one works fine
Brakes- Use good pads and SS brake lines. I run Cobalt XR1 fnt and XR4 rr and get multiple races from each set and never have an issue with fade or lack of stopping power. Use the Mazdaspeed front brake duct kit and the brakes are done. The stock brakes are amazingly good.
Diff- the stock LSD is great. Change the R&P to a 5:12 and you will be amazed at how track-friendly the car becomes. If you run the car longer than about an hour at a time you will need a diff cooler.
Gearbox- The 04-08 gearbox is actually pretty tough but does not suffer abuse well and will fail quickly if hamfisted on the track. The 09-current gearbox is stronger and bolts right in. There are some plastic bits in the gearbox that need upgrading to metal, the Spec Miata guys have this covered.
Fuel tank/pump issues- Replace the stock pump with a Walbro 255HP pump, I believe part number GS342, but I would have to check. Also, use a transfer pump mounted in the right side of the fuel tank. We use a pump made by VDO for the 1993 VW Fox 1.8ltr(US market?) and pump from the right side of the tank to the fuel pump assembly in the left side of the tank. Works perfectly. Be aware that the stock fuel pump WILL fail indescriminantly and costs us dearly at Mid-O.
Some advice-
Run premix in addition to the OMP. DO NOT remove the omp. It is great to add the remote reservior for the OMP, but you should premix as well. Sustained high-rpm operation is tough on the engines and premixing the fuel adds a margin of safety. Racing Beat also proved that premixing adds power. I use Redline Two-Stroke Racing Oil, but any high-quality two stroke oil should be fine.
Check your oil after EVERY track session. In a 20 minute session we typically use 1/2 quart of motor oil. Currently we use Redline 30wt race oil, but again use whatever high-quality oil you choose, just check it after EVERY session.
Do not get wrapped up in the horsepower chase. These cars are momentum cars and handling is thier strong point. Changing to some magic spark plug or other widget is not going to help anything and could jeapordize reliability.
Reliability is the cars Achilles heal. At mid-Ohio we lost a gearbox without warning in the first race, and a fuel pump with little warning in the second. Replaced the fuel pump and the NEW OEM replacement was defective after 3 laps. When considering adding or changing anything question reliability above all else. After replacing the fuel pump the car ran four races in two days at a NASA race weekend and took an Overall and two class wins, and would have won the 4th race had I not used that race to test a potential new driver. Once you have the right bits, the cars will be very reliable and fast.
I am happy to help you with any input I can give, but be aware I am not often on these forums and am fairly busy with more important things, like racing.
Shocks- forget everything over the counter. Buy the Koni 8212's as speced for Grand AM and enjoy.
Sway Bar- again, forget everythign over the counter. We make our own but you can buy pretty much the same thing from MazdaSpeed
The REAR sway bar is easy, just take the stock one and add Polyurethane bushings and drill a second hole in it near where tha bar tapers from round to flat (about 3/4" from the original) and your done.
Coils- I use the stock ones, not a single failure yet. I carry spares, but have not needed one
ECU- forget the AP, not worth the money or hassle. We are using the RacingBeat Race Flash and make more power than all but one other team, and they are using the Motronic 4.3 Motorsports, to the tune of $100K USD. The racing Beat Flash is around $400 USD, pretty easy math.
Exhaust- there is very little difference between the off-the-shelf stuff, but the race header and exhausts are radically different. Eric Meyers in Indy can put you in touch with the right people for this.
Radiator- Ron Davis or C&R, there really is no substitute. Deal directly with Ron Davis or C&R and explain that you are running a track car and they will make you very happy. Also, keep ALL of the factory ducting in place. DO NOT be tempted to re-engineer what Mazda did unless you like replacing motors.
Clutch/flywheel- I use the ACT flywheel/clutch combination, works flawlessly. Eric is using (I think) a tilton multi-disc.
Intake- I build my own intakes, and it is pretty dead simple to do so, just need to be able to weld aluminum. Otherwise, the AEM one works fine
Brakes- Use good pads and SS brake lines. I run Cobalt XR1 fnt and XR4 rr and get multiple races from each set and never have an issue with fade or lack of stopping power. Use the Mazdaspeed front brake duct kit and the brakes are done. The stock brakes are amazingly good.
Diff- the stock LSD is great. Change the R&P to a 5:12 and you will be amazed at how track-friendly the car becomes. If you run the car longer than about an hour at a time you will need a diff cooler.
Gearbox- The 04-08 gearbox is actually pretty tough but does not suffer abuse well and will fail quickly if hamfisted on the track. The 09-current gearbox is stronger and bolts right in. There are some plastic bits in the gearbox that need upgrading to metal, the Spec Miata guys have this covered.
Fuel tank/pump issues- Replace the stock pump with a Walbro 255HP pump, I believe part number GS342, but I would have to check. Also, use a transfer pump mounted in the right side of the fuel tank. We use a pump made by VDO for the 1993 VW Fox 1.8ltr(US market?) and pump from the right side of the tank to the fuel pump assembly in the left side of the tank. Works perfectly. Be aware that the stock fuel pump WILL fail indescriminantly and costs us dearly at Mid-O.
Some advice-
Run premix in addition to the OMP. DO NOT remove the omp. It is great to add the remote reservior for the OMP, but you should premix as well. Sustained high-rpm operation is tough on the engines and premixing the fuel adds a margin of safety. Racing Beat also proved that premixing adds power. I use Redline Two-Stroke Racing Oil, but any high-quality two stroke oil should be fine.
Check your oil after EVERY track session. In a 20 minute session we typically use 1/2 quart of motor oil. Currently we use Redline 30wt race oil, but again use whatever high-quality oil you choose, just check it after EVERY session.
Do not get wrapped up in the horsepower chase. These cars are momentum cars and handling is thier strong point. Changing to some magic spark plug or other widget is not going to help anything and could jeapordize reliability.
Reliability is the cars Achilles heal. At mid-Ohio we lost a gearbox without warning in the first race, and a fuel pump with little warning in the second. Replaced the fuel pump and the NEW OEM replacement was defective after 3 laps. When considering adding or changing anything question reliability above all else. After replacing the fuel pump the car ran four races in two days at a NASA race weekend and took an Overall and two class wins, and would have won the 4th race had I not used that race to test a potential new driver. Once you have the right bits, the cars will be very reliable and fast.
I am happy to help you with any input I can give, but be aware I am not often on these forums and am fairly busy with more important things, like racing.
Last edited by d walker; 09-02-2011 at 07:22 PM.
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09-04-2011, 03:36 PM
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Nice to see my name, thanks G
I hope My mails has helped the op, you can Find both mine and Lennarts build threads at rejsa.nu and Rotaryheaven.net
There is 3 rx-8 that are built for gripracing (trackday & race) in Sweden.
Mine
Lennart
Rolf
Dont be afraid to contact us at www.wankelregistret.se
I hope My mails has helped the op, you can Find both mine and Lennarts build threads at rejsa.nu and Rotaryheaven.net
There is 3 rx-8 that are built for gripracing (trackday & race) in Sweden.
Mine
Lennart
Rolf
Dont be afraid to contact us at www.wankelregistret.se
Last edited by fastlaneracing; 09-04-2011 at 03:42 PM.
09-04-2011, 03:50 PM
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09-05-2011, 02:33 AM
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Thank you all for your advise!!
I will have a look at the car today after work. Will post pics if it follows back home with me! :D Wish me luck!
Then I have to register the car in Sweden, and after that my project will begin!
I will have a look at the car today after work. Will post pics if it follows back home with me! :D Wish me luck!
Then I have to register the car in Sweden, and after that my project will begin!
09-06-2011, 12:21 AM
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Hi!
Have a few questions iīm some one can help me with
If I use the Racing Beat midpipe, I donīt have to re-map it. Right?
Will I be able to take it to the track with the non resonated one? Most tracks in Sweden have 95db limit. I think I will use the standard exhaust except the mid pipe. What I have heard the rest saves weight but donīt give you any power ^^
What kind of oil do you suggest?
Have a few questions iīm some one can help me with
If I use the Racing Beat midpipe, I donīt have to re-map it. Right?
Will I be able to take it to the track with the non resonated one? Most tracks in Sweden have 95db limit. I think I will use the standard exhaust except the mid pipe. What I have heard the rest saves weight but donīt give you any power ^^
What kind of oil do you suggest?
09-06-2011, 02:48 AM
#24
Get a resonated midpipe that possibly has no muffling\packing material. Our exhaust gasses are very hot and burn regular mufflers in a very nice way
Weight and design aside it's important for you to have consistent results db wise!
Weight and design aside it's important for you to have consistent results db wise!
09-06-2011, 03:27 AM
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I will try to make the car "race-ready" until next spring. So have much time.
What oil do you recommend in the engine?