RX-8 Facelift Final Drive = 4.777
01-15-2008, 07:07 PM
#51
Carter was on the limiter forever there, then went to 3rd on his fastest run (or two) and seemed way faster than everyone else through that section, not sure where he lost time to everyone on the rest of the course
Last edited by TeamRX8; 01-15-2008 at 07:32 PM.
01-15-2008, 07:37 PM
#52
Row faster, I hear banjos
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The 'strengthened' transmission, is merely the MX-5 transmission. I saw a new RX-8 version of it when I was in the Mazda Tech center in Irvine last month.
Provided the ratios don't change from the MX-5 transmission, the following should be a very accurate gear chart showing the differences between an '04-'08 car and the '09 R3. I omitted 1st gear from this, but first is significantly shorter, so it will run out sooner. I think 2nd being shorter will help, but 61mph will hurt on some fast courses.
I'll work to verify that the ratios aren't going to change. We hope to have a test-mule transmission here to play with in a month or so, and when we do I'll let everyone know how it holds up.
Overall, the car looks sweet in person - I just got back from the auto show. The seats are apparently quite a bit lighter. They are guessing this version to be 45lb lighter than a comparably equipped non-R3. The 'whizzy' options they have on this are all negligible in their weight (stereo, bluetooth, advanced keyless, etc.) Apparently the 19's are quite a bit lighter than the old 18's were, but that gain is cancelled for our purposes, so this car will only be 20-30lb lighter than a current car.
I definitely think there's one of these in our future... Juliann is jonesing to autocross more, and I loved running one at Nationals! (Thanks Kenny!) We need a daily driver anyway, and I love how this thing looks - so I think we'll be ordering one up. Love the blue, too. :D
Car (1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th FD)
04-'08' RX-8 (3.760 - 2.269 - 1.645 - 1.187 - 1.000 - 0.843 - 4.440)
09' RX-8 R3 (3.815 - 2.260 - 1.640 - 1.177 - 1.000 - 0.832 - 4.770)
Revs @60, '04-'08 RX-8 - 2nd - 8391.9 / 3rd - 6084.1 / 4th - 4390.1 / 5th - 3698.5 / 6th - 3117.9
Revs @60, '09 RX-8 R3 - 2nd - 8807.4 / 3rd - 6391.2 / 4th -4586.9 / 5th - 3897.1 / 6th - 3242.4
Speed @Redline, '04-'08 RX-8 - 2nd - 63.6 / 3rd - 87.8 / 4th - 121.6 / 5th - 144.4 / 6th - 171.3
Speed @Redline, '09 RX-8 R3 - 2nd - 60.6 / 3rd - 83.6 / 4th - 116.4 / 5th - 137.0 / 6th - 164.7
Rev drop, '04-'07 RX-8 - 2nd to 3rd - 6746.7 / 3rd to 4th - 6715.0 / 4th to 5th - 7839.9 / 5th to 6th - 7845.0
Rev drop, '09 RX-8 R3 - 2nd to 3rd - 6885.3 / 3rd to 4th - 6809.6 / 4th to 5th - 8061.4 / 5th to 6th - 7894.2
Provided the ratios don't change from the MX-5 transmission, the following should be a very accurate gear chart showing the differences between an '04-'08 car and the '09 R3. I omitted 1st gear from this, but first is significantly shorter, so it will run out sooner. I think 2nd being shorter will help, but 61mph will hurt on some fast courses.
I'll work to verify that the ratios aren't going to change. We hope to have a test-mule transmission here to play with in a month or so, and when we do I'll let everyone know how it holds up.
Overall, the car looks sweet in person - I just got back from the auto show. The seats are apparently quite a bit lighter. They are guessing this version to be 45lb lighter than a comparably equipped non-R3. The 'whizzy' options they have on this are all negligible in their weight (stereo, bluetooth, advanced keyless, etc.) Apparently the 19's are quite a bit lighter than the old 18's were, but that gain is cancelled for our purposes, so this car will only be 20-30lb lighter than a current car.
I definitely think there's one of these in our future... Juliann is jonesing to autocross more, and I loved running one at Nationals! (Thanks Kenny!) We need a daily driver anyway, and I love how this thing looks - so I think we'll be ordering one up. Love the blue, too. :D
Car (1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th FD)
04-'08' RX-8 (3.760 - 2.269 - 1.645 - 1.187 - 1.000 - 0.843 - 4.440)
09' RX-8 R3 (3.815 - 2.260 - 1.640 - 1.177 - 1.000 - 0.832 - 4.770)
Revs @60, '04-'08 RX-8 - 2nd - 8391.9 / 3rd - 6084.1 / 4th - 4390.1 / 5th - 3698.5 / 6th - 3117.9
Revs @60, '09 RX-8 R3 - 2nd - 8807.4 / 3rd - 6391.2 / 4th -4586.9 / 5th - 3897.1 / 6th - 3242.4
Speed @Redline, '04-'08 RX-8 - 2nd - 63.6 / 3rd - 87.8 / 4th - 121.6 / 5th - 144.4 / 6th - 171.3
Speed @Redline, '09 RX-8 R3 - 2nd - 60.6 / 3rd - 83.6 / 4th - 116.4 / 5th - 137.0 / 6th - 164.7
Rev drop, '04-'07 RX-8 - 2nd to 3rd - 6746.7 / 3rd to 4th - 6715.0 / 4th to 5th - 7839.9 / 5th to 6th - 7845.0
Rev drop, '09 RX-8 R3 - 2nd to 3rd - 6885.3 / 3rd to 4th - 6809.6 / 4th to 5th - 8061.4 / 5th to 6th - 7894.2
01-15-2008, 09:34 PM
#53
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So has anyone seen pics of the base car?
Still, I'm not sure any of these "upgrades" would get me to purchase the 09 car over my 05......Especially for the 20k difference in price...
Really, everything they've done to the car can be duplicated or bolted on fairly easy....Granted, it would not qualify for a "stock" class but who really cares other then a very few people.
I guess time will tell but I wouldn't bet on the 2009 RX8 bringing in the new customers that they are hoping for........
Still, I'm not sure any of these "upgrades" would get me to purchase the 09 car over my 05......Especially for the 20k difference in price...
Really, everything they've done to the car can be duplicated or bolted on fairly easy....Granted, it would not qualify for a "stock" class but who really cares other then a very few people. I guess time will tell but I wouldn't bet on the 2009 RX8 bringing in the new customers that they are hoping for........
01-15-2008, 11:48 PM
#54
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Hmm,,,Wierd..Many of the messages didn't show earlier on my browser. I can see the limiter on left course in second but only at the finish. A shorter second would have worked better on 5 other places on the course though.
Agree on the right side 1st gear spot though.
FM
Agree on the right side 1st gear spot though.
FM
01-16-2008, 11:57 AM
#58
Row faster, I hear banjos
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The '09+ RX-8 changes are so minor that I feel both generations of RX-8's should remain competitive - similar to the AP1 & AP2 S2000's. If the gear ratios are unchanged from the MX-5 6spd and curb weights are within 10-20lbs of the older models, it'll definitely be a toss up. Especially if the Edmunds report re: unchanged power output, holds true.
01-16-2008, 12:47 PM
#59
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My $0.02 on this issue...
The '09+ RX-8 changes are so minor that I feel both generations of RX-8's should remain competitive - similar to the AP1 & AP2 S2000's. If the gear ratios are unchanged from the MX-5 6spd and curb weights are within 10-20lbs of the older models, it'll definitely be a toss up. Especially if the Edmunds report re: unchanged power output, holds true.
The '09+ RX-8 changes are so minor that I feel both generations of RX-8's should remain competitive - similar to the AP1 & AP2 S2000's. If the gear ratios are unchanged from the MX-5 6spd and curb weights are within 10-20lbs of the older models, it'll definitely be a toss up. Especially if the Edmunds report re: unchanged power output, holds true.
The gearing thing, in terms of max speed in 2nd, is probably not too big a deal, as it seems there are less and less "National" type courses where exceeding 60mph is going to happen in the RX8. Of course, if there is a big difference in mid range 2nd gear acceleration, that would be huge...
01-16-2008, 01:08 PM
#60
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I agree with "OnedayMike" 100%.
+1 on acceleration out of 2nd gear corners before a long power on section. Data shows big time gains through sections when you can add a little speed right at the start of a section.
Nats had PLENTY of that this year and I don't think that is going to change anytime soon...
I have always guessed that the on throttle exit push that plaqued me(insert Jason saying it is a driver problem here ) when I was messing with the 8 came from rear toe-in change while under power and cornering.
I never measured everything in the rear suspension including bushing deflection to see if this was true though.
SO! If above hypothesis is correct, a "real" change to the rear suspension "could" potentially allow you to be on the throttle sooner and harder versus a earlier model all other things being equal see gearing change above...
It's all guesses right now though.
FM
+1 on acceleration out of 2nd gear corners before a long power on section. Data shows big time gains through sections when you can add a little speed right at the start of a section.
Nats had PLENTY of that this year and I don't think that is going to change anytime soon...
I have always guessed that the on throttle exit push that plaqued me(insert Jason saying it is a driver problem here
) when I was messing with the 8 came from rear toe-in change while under power and cornering.I never measured everything in the rear suspension including bushing deflection to see if this was true though.
SO! If above hypothesis is correct, a "real" change to the rear suspension "could" potentially allow you to be on the throttle sooner and harder versus a earlier model all other things being equal see gearing change above...
It's all guesses right now though.
FM
01-16-2008, 01:09 PM
#61
My $0.02 on this issue...
The '09+ RX-8 changes are so minor that I feel both generations of RX-8's should remain competitive - similar to the AP1 & AP2 S2000's. If the gear ratios are unchanged from the MX-5 6spd and curb weights are within 10-20lbs of the older models, it'll definitely be a toss up. Especially if the Edmunds report re: unchanged power output, holds true.
The '09+ RX-8 changes are so minor that I feel both generations of RX-8's should remain competitive - similar to the AP1 & AP2 S2000's. If the gear ratios are unchanged from the MX-5 6spd and curb weights are within 10-20lbs of the older models, it'll definitely be a toss up. Especially if the Edmunds report re: unchanged power output, holds true.
The '09 RX-8... I don't see anything there that makes it more desirable for a stock-class autocrosser. Again it depends on what they did to the rear suspension and how wide the 19" wheels are but it looks like it'll probably end up a wash.
01-16-2008, 01:24 PM
#62
I have always guessed that the on throttle exit push that plaqued me(insert Jason saying it is a driver problem here
) when I was messing with the 8 came from rear toe-in change while under power and cornering.I never measured everything in the rear suspension including bushing deflection to see if this was true though.
SO! If above hypothesis is correct, a "real" change to the rear suspension "could" potentially allow you to be on the throttle sooner and harder versus a earlier model all other things being equal see gearing change above...
It's all guesses right now though.
FM
01-16-2008, 01:37 PM
#63
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FWIW, Matthew and I also struggled with off corner push with the RX8, from time to time, with the worse being at Packwood. I don't think we really had that problem when running the big Hoosiers, however...interesting.
If the rear suspension revisions are a performance oriented change, I'd guess it would have to do with toe change and "rear steer", since I agree with FM that there's something that is going on there...on the other hand, it could just be some type of compliance oriented change, to improve the ride
If the rear suspension revisions are a performance oriented change, I'd guess it would have to do with toe change and "rear steer", since I agree with FM that there's something that is going on there...on the other hand, it could just be some type of compliance oriented change, to improve the ride
01-16-2008, 01:48 PM
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HAHA I love Jason. He is always gets me to laugh.
I better watch out calling Mr.Wood "OnedayMike"...I just was in the bathroom and looked in the mirror and saw the same name staring back at me!
FM
I love Jason. He is always gets me to laugh. I better watch out calling Mr.Wood "OnedayMike"...I just was in the bathroom and looked in the mirror and saw the same name staring back at me!
FM
01-16-2008, 02:03 PM
#66
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I can't divulge the "exact" location(s) but I know where there is some places that we can play and get the feel for the car/dampers.
R U thinking of going over to the Sand and Sage or SSSCC or whatever it is called 2 day event next weekend assuming weather is ok? We might do that instead of WW due to more runs possible over the 2 day event.
I have some new stuff I am playing with on my car too since it is obvious that the driver can't seem to get it done so he needs to make his car better...
Anyhow, that would be a really good test/play/setting time and I heard there might be some ZOK's and a MS-R car there for comparison purposes..
If your "new" car can whoop up on us "hacks"(ok..at least one hack) in the CS cars, I think you will have BS covered prety well.
Maybe we can talk Kevin into taking the big trailer with both cars versus one(small trailer) or both ZOK's(in the big trailer) if you throw him some gas money.
FM
R U thinking of going over to the Sand and Sage or SSSCC or whatever it is called 2 day event next weekend assuming weather is ok? We might do that instead of WW due to more runs possible over the 2 day event.
I have some new stuff I am playing with on my car too since it is obvious that the driver can't seem to get it done so he needs to make his car better...
Anyhow, that would be a really good test/play/setting time and I heard there might be some ZOK's and a MS-R car there for comparison purposes..
If your "new" car can whoop up on us "hacks"(ok..at least one hack) in the CS cars, I think you will have BS covered prety well.
Maybe we can talk Kevin into taking the big trailer with both cars versus one(small trailer) or both ZOK's(in the big trailer) if you throw him some gas money.
FM
Last edited by fastmike; 01-16-2008 at 02:05 PM.
01-16-2008, 02:03 PM
#67
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01-16-2008, 02:05 PM
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Hmmm, definitely something to consider. I was trying to get the SM guys out to have fun with spec miatas at the WW event, but if they're doing a 2 day thing, that could be worth trying out for some easy test and tune time.
01-16-2008, 04:17 PM
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01-16-2008, 04:30 PM
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01-16-2008, 06:48 PM
#72
it was just a prelude to saying that I agree with Jason S.; IMO the '09 will likely be enough of an improvement to put down quicker times.
The one area where the RX-8 falters is exiting the lower speed 2nd gear corners and having the shorter gearing is likely to pay off more than enough to offset any loss from running out of 2nd gear on the top end due to the overall trend in smaller, tighter, and lower overall speed autox courses.
The one area where the RX-8 falters is exiting the lower speed 2nd gear corners and having the shorter gearing is likely to pay off more than enough to offset any loss from running out of 2nd gear on the top end due to the overall trend in smaller, tighter, and lower overall speed autox courses.
01-16-2008, 07:00 PM
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it was just a prelude to saying that I agree with Jason S.; IMO the '09 will likely be enough of an improvement to put down quicker times.
The one area where the RX-8 falters is exiting the lower speed 2nd gear corners and having the shorter gearing is likely to pay off more than enough to offset any loss from running out of 2nd gear on the top end due to the overall trend in smaller, tighter, and lower overall speed autox courses.
The one area where the RX-8 falters is exiting the lower speed 2nd gear corners and having the shorter gearing is likely to pay off more than enough to offset any loss from running out of 2nd gear on the top end due to the overall trend in smaller, tighter, and lower overall speed autox courses.
No doubt you're on target, there's no question that the RX8 gets killed in turns where you can't go to 1st, but are out of the sweet spot in 2nd. I agree that the loss of "top end" (what, 2-3mph?) isn't a big deal, but am unsure if having shorter gearing is going to possibly make the off turn push issue even more obvious? I guess it doesn't matter, you still have to drive it accordingly and you will still benefit from the greater multiplication of what little torque is available.
Of course, that's also if there actually is a design, rather than set up, induced "push issue"
