Recommendations - HPDE F/R Pads
Hi all,
I've just bought a 2005 RX-8, and am dying to get it out to the track... I recently got rid of my Acura Integra GS-R, which I've taken to ~10 HPDE weekends, and loved. I had good success with Hawk HP+ pads on the Integra, and only had to run them on the front (ran HPS in the rear), but at the last laps in a 25-30 min session could definitely tell they were overheating, even on street tires. My question: for the RX-8 on street tires, 1) are HP+ pads up to track weekends, and 2) given the more favorable weight distribution vs. the Integra, are upgraded "track worthy" rear pads a requirement? A follow up to question 2 - would you recommend the same compound front and rear? I'm planning to only run these pads at the track, so street use is not important. Any input is welcome. Thanks! |
I run HP Plus both front and back at an HPDE 3 or 4 pace. They hold up well enough for what I need out of them. Only if I stay out more than 40 minutes will I begin to feel some fade.
I'm not pushing the car to its limits (its my street car that sees track duty), and I also like not having to swap out pads for track days, so this compound suits me fine. It allows me enough braking at the track to lap quickly and smoothly on a street tire, yet I bet if I throw on some R compound rubber and try to run at my own limit, I would surpass the HP Plus' abilities. Another highly recommended compound is the Cobalt Friction GT Sport as supposedly a step above the HP Plus in terms of bite. Anything more needed than that and you're simply needing race compound pads (from your preferred brand- Hawk/Porterfield/Carbotech, etc.). My suggestion would be to try a set of HP Plus at first as a minimum baseline, then go from there as you see how much pad you're going to need. |
GoJackets:
Contact Matt Nicholson at CarboTech (www.CarboTech.com). Matt is very helpful in determining compounds for various uses. Mark Pfeffer |
Thanks for the replies, guys...
I've sent an e-mail to Carbotech for their recommendation, and I'll see what they say (by the way, their website is www.ctbrakes.com) I'll post their recommendation here... |
Hawk Blue 9012 Track Pads all around.
Street pads (HPS, HP+, Hawk Performance ceramic) really can't match the safety of a track pad. |
^
Many underestimate the ability of the HP Plus at the track. It's not a race compound, but it's definately not to be grouped with HPS and Performance Ceramic. |
whats the diff between the blue and the HP+?
|
Originally Posted by chetrickerman
(Post 2241405)
whats the diff between the blue and the HP+?
The HP Plus is a step below a race pad's capabilities. It is an intermediate between a street pad and a track pad. |
you would have to switch out the blue's correct and then warm them up?
|
Blues are a dedicated track pad. You do not want to use these on a street car, as you will never get them up to their minimum operating temp on the street. Until you get them up to temp, they will actually perform worse than OE pads.
|
Yes, blues should be swapped in at the track and brought to operating temp (not hard to do) for proper use. Drive them around town and they're going to be harsh on the rotors.
|
^true dat...don't ask me how I know...:uhh:
I ran various Hawk compounds for a couple of years, but ended up swapping to Carbotech Panther series...less aggressive dust (much easier to clean) and less likely to overheat (compared to the HP+ in my application) and cause uneven pad tranfer layer (which results in squealing and shuddering). I had problems with the HP+ and pad "smearing", but that was on a 3350lbs Mustang, the '8 is probably much easier on brakes! |
I took South Fls advice from another thread and have to say he was right on the money with the HP+ . Good all round pad for track and street .
|
Originally Posted by mwood
(Post 2241720)
^true dat...don't ask me how I know...:uhh:
I ran various Hawk compounds for a couple of years, but ended up swapping to Carbotech Panther series...less aggressive dust (much easier to clean) and less likely to overheat (compared to the HP+ in my application) and cause uneven pad tranfer layer (which results in squealing and shuddering). I had problems with the HP+ and pad "smearing", but that was on a 3350lbs Mustang, the '8 is probably much easier on brakes! On the RX8, the HP Plus has been fine. |
Originally Posted by SouthFL
(Post 2241943)
I also had problems with the HP Plus on a Stage II WRX wagon (not enough rotor and heat dissipation on that car on stock brakes at the track for its power and weight).
On the RX8, the HP Plus has been fine. You might want to try the Carbotechs, too, just for comparisons sake ;) |
overheating the brake pads at an HPDE sounds more like a heavy brake foot issue than a brake pad compound issue ...
|
^
HPDE 4 / Advanced Solo is basically 8 thru 9/10ths race pace. People run really hard out there. |
and you go 40 minutes on HP+ compared to his 20 - 25 minutes on HP+ :dunno:
I was referring to the OP, not you |
Originally Posted by TeamRX8
(Post 2242555)
and you go 40 minutes on HP+ compared to his 20 - 25 minutes on HP+ :dunno:
I was referring to the OP, not you I get about 40 minutes out of them on the RX8. I used to get 20 minutes out of them on my WRX. The larger rotor diameter and heat dissipation of the RX8 brakes allows one to get better use out of the pad. For the most part, at first, as a novice, one drags brakes, causing excessive heat build-up. As the learning curve grows, one puts less heat into the brakes as the brake zones shorten. Yet, as the intensity in pace increases as skill level rises, one again builds heat into the pads, therefore needing a better compound. It's all relative to vehicle, skill and pace. Edit: and apologies Team, I thought you were referring to HPDE in general. |
Originally Posted by TeamRX8
(Post 2242503)
overheating the brake pads at an HPDE sounds more like a heavy brake foot issue than a brake pad compound issue ...
Seeing as there are a number of posts on this board that I've read suggesting going to higher temp brake fluid to avoid boiling/losing pedal, but not that many complaining about rapid pad wear, I'd guess the RX8 pad to have a fairly high heat range, maybe in the 900 degree range or so? Most street/track pad, like the HP+ will go a little higher, like maybe 1000-1050 degrees, I think. |
XP-8 for the win.
|
My inquiry to Carbotech:
Hi - I wanted to see if you could recommend a set of pads for me... I've just bought a Mazda RX-8, and I'm planning to take it to 3-4 HPDE track weekends a year, on street tires. I have prior experience with Hawk HP+ pads from my Acura Integra, and found that my pace was pushing the limits of those on street tires, and I would see some fade after 25-30 minutes. I'm concerned that the extra weight of the RX-8 will be too much for the HP+ pads, and I've heard great things about Carbotech... Could you recommend a compound for me - these pads will be swapped in just for track events, so no need for street use. Do you recommend the same compound for the front and rear of the car? And their response: I would recommend our XP10 front, and XP8 rear for your track use. Our Bobcat 1521 would be the best choice for your street use. You can use the Bobcat's and any of our XP series compounds on the same rotors with no problems at all. Let me know if you have any other questions or comments. Sounds reasonable, based on the compound descriptions on the website. I'm interested in their claim that a completely ceramic pad (as opposed to one with metallic content) is the way to go. One thing they claim on the site is that their pads are essentially incompatible with other pads on the same rotor, so they would not recommend, for example, running stock pads for street use and XP10's for track use on the same rotor without machining the surface to expose fresh rotor. If you follow that recommendation, that puts you either 1) having dedicated track rotors that match your pads or 2) moving to their Bobcat series pads for street use. In the past, I've always moved back and forth between Hawk HPS for the street and HP+ for the track, but I suppose that's still "keeping it in the family". |
<---Track rotors.
|
So, I'm still debating this issue. There's such a big difference in price between the Carbotech and Hawk ($122 for Bobcats vs. $75 for HPS, $155 for XP-8 vs. $106-111 for Hawk HP+ or Hawk Blue).
Anyone have experience running Hawk Ceramic on the same rotors as HP+ or Blue? I would like to run ceramic for daily use to cut down on dust and still give decent performance (I don't ask/expect my daily pads to perform like track pads, though). I know the theory is that pad material transfer is the reason Carbotech recommends not mixing pad materials, but if you're going to re-bed the pads when you change them out, I'm not sure if that matters as much. The other alternative is HPS for daily use, but I'd rather have something a little less dusty. I'm not crazy about having a complete extra set of rotors for the track pads, given the prices on OEM Mazda Rotors. I can't find them for less than $114 each. Anyone with firsthand experience? |
Get a set used from Mazmart, just get them turned and you save a bundle.
|
Here's something else to consider that you've likely not heard about. I used to track on HP+ pads both front and rear and found them not overly impressive, not good bite, not confidence inspiring haul down from high speed. So I moved on to these and am extremely happy compared to HP+ as they are very suitable in 0 degree weather as well as 90 deg track days in HPDE 4 groups. No warmup is esp. nice so I do not have to have two sets of pads, one street, one track.
details: https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...obalt+friction |
Spin, do you use the GT Sport as both a street and track pad? Reason I'm asking is that I've really reached the limits with what HP Plus pads can do for me. I only use them at this point due to my laziness for pad swapping- but that's got to stop. Seems like 200 treadwear tires and the speed I'm carrying into brake zones these days have caught up to the pad's limits.
|
After using the HP10's after the HP+...I wouldn't go back
Swapping the pads is a PIA I suppose...but I always seem to get to the rack really early anyway :D: |
^
It's not the before track day swap- it's the damn I'm tired and I want to go home pad swap that I don't like ;) |
|
^ Swapping between R4 (track) to R4S (street) is yet another option which I've overlooked.
|
Carbotech Panther...XP8 for street/track, with a bias to track. Might be worth a try, they were great on my Mustang, after I got tired of HP+ melt down and the Hawk Blue to oem pad shuffle.:)
|
Originally Posted by SouthFL
(Post 2253019)
^
It's not the before track day swap- it's the damn I'm tired and I want to go home pad swap that I don't like ;) Just brake really hard on the way home ;) |
I use the HP+ pads. I put them on at home before the event and swap them out later the weekend after the event. In fact, I've even run on them longterm before. When I go back to the OEM pads, the car feels like it doesn't want to stop anymore...
|
Originally Posted by SouthFL
(Post 2252958)
Spin, do you use the GT Sport as both a street and track pad? Reason I'm asking is that I've really reached the limits with what HP Plus pads can do for me. I only use them at this point due to my laziness for pad swapping- but that's got to stop. Seems like 200 treadwear tires and the speed I'm carrying into brake zones these days have caught up to the pad's limits.
Absolutely :) , I've got them on right now and went out yesterday, they grab just the same from my driveway @15 degrees now as during an HPDE @90 in summer. Probably few believe what I'm saying about this, but I guarantee you'll be happy with them hot or cold, and for track days they perform extremely well. I think people just get stuck with brands they know and don't realize there is technology that will improve their experience, IF they'd take the leap of faith required :scratchhe . Personally I don't like products that require compromise and inconvenience, and these guys deliver the goods I need. Apparently something about no binder, just a special pressure compacting makes them grab irrespective of temp. Not to mention Cobalt Friction has had their pads extensively tested by RX-8 race teams and know the car well and can give recommendation depending on your needs. Give them a call, they'll talk to you about it as they did me. The only downside I've found is they are a bit noisy the last 3 ft as you stop on the street, but to me that's an insignificant thing compared to all their pluses. Plus they told me this up front - I said no biggie. |
Originally Posted by Spin9k
(Post 2253408)
Absolutely :) , I've got them on right now and went out yesterday, they grab just the same from my driveway @15 degrees now as during an HPDE @90 in summer.
Probably few believe what I'm saying about this, but I guarantee you'll be happy with them hot or cold, and for track days they perform extremely well. I think people just get stuck with brands they know and don't realize there is technology that will improve their experience, IF they'd take the leap of faith required :scratchhe . Personally I don't like products that require compromise and inconvenience, and these guys deliver the goods I need. Apparently something about no binder, just a special pressure compacting makes them grab irrespective of temp. Not to mention Cobalt Friction has had their pads extensively tested by RX-8 race teams and know the car well and can give recommendation depending on your needs. Give them a call, they'll talk to you about it as they did me. The only downside I've found is they are a bit noisy the last 3 ft as you stop on the street, but to me that's an insignificant thing compared to all their pluses. Plus they told me this up front - I said no biggie. |
Call me crazy, but I actually like having two sets of pads - I want great pads for the track, but I don't fool myself into thinking I need killer pads for everyday driving. I'd rather have quiet pads with less dust. I get to the track 3-4 times a year (depending on how often she lets me!!), so I'd like a race car those weekends, and a reasonably sporty car the rest of the year. That's why I bought an RX-8. There are better pure sports cars out there, and there are more comfortable, lower cost cars out there, but the beauty of the car to me is the balance.
So... I'm going to continue to shop the Carbotech, Hawk and now Porterfield options. The Cobalt track pads sound good, but they don't have a true street pad, and that's not what I'm looking for. I would like to be in the same brand to minimize issues with the rotors. I appreciate all the discussion - just what I was looking for. Thanks! |
Originally Posted by gojackets
(Post 2252733)
Anyone have experience running Hawk Ceramic on the same rotors as HP+ or Blue?
Anyone with firsthand experience? I've seen the transfer layer take on a crazy tortoiseshell appearance when going from, say, Pagid Sport for street to Hawk DTC-70 for track. The mixed transfer layer was inconsistent and potentially unstable. You can usually nurse it through the transition if you're careful and pay attention (may take a couple sessions). The risk is that during the unstable phase, it will become excessively irregular and judder develop. Let that go long enough, and you're buying new rotors. |
First thing I did before my first HPDE (was PDX with the WORSCCA) was replace the brake fluids with ATE Super Blue, and put on some Hawk's HP+ on all four calipers.
Since then, I've been to a total of two HPDEs, 1 AutoX, 3 RallyXs and approaching 10,000mi with no problems (and I do brake hard on the street. I like scaring the shit out of the car in front by braking at the last moment). If only my tires held up this good... Anyway, unless you're a really hardcore driver, you won't even use the HP+ to their maximum capacity. Only downside I found was the increased squealing on the rotors. If your pads/rotors aren't warm, they squeal like a banshee, especially in cold weather. I've noticed extra dusting when washing, but I don't really see it often because I painted my wheels grey. |
Well...there are a number of here that way overdrive the HP+... take that as you will. They worked OK for the first year for me...but hey melt off like butter when they get really hot. A true motorsports pad set is miles better than the HP+ ( no pun intended :) )
|
No shit. That's like saying an F1 car is wayyyy better than the 8. Thanks Captain Obvious. :D
But if you're not doing serious competitive racing, you don't need hardcore pads. |
HUH??? You on crack?
|
What I said was that HP+ aren't the best pads for someone who pushes the car hard.......Captain obnoxious!
|
Originally Posted by dannobre
(Post 2255074)
What I said was that HP+ aren't the best pads for someone who pushes the car hard.......Captain obnoxious!
https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-racing-25/tires-goddamned-tires-136061/ it rubs the lotion on itself.. beers :beer: |
Originally Posted by dothackRAVE
(Post 2255068)
No shit. That's like saying an F1 car is wayyyy better than the 8. Thanks Captain Obvious. :D
But if you're not doing serious competitive racing, you don't need hardcore pads. wow, you get good advice that is above your head.. maybe read a bit more???? beers :beer: |
>.>
I'd like to know why you'll want to pay big bucks for race pads when you're not racing at all. He said HPDE, not club racing. HPDE = no lap times. That's all I'm saying. Pay for equipment that you use. |
Cause a set of HT10's lasted me over 10 track days...the HP+ less than 2......you do the math...............
|
Originally Posted by dannobre
(Post 2255098)
Cause a set of HT10's lasted me over 10 track days...the HP+ less than 2......you do the math...............
|
personally I would swap between Hawk ceramic pads for the street and then the race pads of your choice if you want to be that serious
|
Originally Posted by dothackRAVE
(Post 2255068)
No shit. That's like saying an F1 car is wayyyy better than the 8. Thanks Captain Obvious. :D
But if you're not doing serious competitive racing, you don't need hardcore pads. |
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:58 PM. |
© 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands