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Progress Technology Springs
R&D has completed and the AutoX springs are soon to be available.
AutoX Springs: MSRP $350 GB going on now: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-wheels-tires-brakes-suspension-55/exclusive-progress-autox-springs-group-buy-183663/ Front: 425 Lbs./In Rear: 280 Lbs./In Front Drop: -1.2 inches Rear Drop: -0.8 inches These are finalized numbers. |
Thanks for organizing this!
Would I be correct in assuming these springs would work with any stock style shock? e.g. konis. I think someone like TeamRX8 could give great feedback on this subject. Personally, I'd like to see a 1" drop front & rear with a front spring rate around 420-450lbs/in, and a rear spring rate around 275-300lbs/in. I'm sure more will chime in... |
I like 1"drop ront, 1/2" drop on rear, 400lb front, 275lb back
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I'd like to see some direct replacement springs with spring rates similar to what is found on the popular coilover kits (450-400 lbs/in Front, 300-250 lbs/in rear) with a very small drop, 0.75-1.0" or so.
Revalved Konis + stiff springs should work well for STX. In the mean time I'm figuring out how to mount Bilstein ASN shocks, inverted, at all 4 corners. http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:...w.gwracing.com |
450/275. 1" drop F & R.
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Originally Posted by shinronin
(Post 2933248)
450/275. 1" drop F & R.
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Thanks guys Keep it coming.
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I agree with the above sentiments. No current aftermarket spring, near as I can tell, would be a good choice for STX. The rates above are the current consensus, and they seem reasonable. As for the drop, about 1" is good, and give a front/rear drop bias that will achieve roughly neutral handling for the spring rates choosen. I don't care about looks.
Also, please let us know what bump stops were used in the development of the spring (i.e., stock, untrimmed, or trimmed, etc), as this can influence handling balance as well. |
Originally Posted by GeorgeH
(Post 2934417)
Also, please let us know what bump stops were used in the development of the spring (i.e., stock, untrimmed, or trimmed, etc), as this can influence handling balance as well.
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I will be very interested, currently running mazdaspeed springs and dspecs for STX/Track. Would love to go stiffer, 450/275 1" drop sounds great to me!
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Originally Posted by GeorgeH
(Post 2934417)
I agree with the above sentiments. No current aftermarket spring, near as I can tell, would be a good choice for STX. The rates above are the current consensus, and they seem reasonable. As for the drop, about 1" is good, and give a front/rear drop bias that will achieve roughly neutral handling for the spring rates choosen. I don't care about looks.
Also, please let us know what bump stops were used in the development of the spring (i.e., stock, untrimmed, or trimmed, etc), as this can influence handling balance as well. nice to see you around george! beers :beer: |
I'm interested in seeing how this works out, looking at STX for 2010.
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I'd prefer a little less than 1" drop. With the 1/2+- from the Koni's a full inch would be a little more than needed. IMO. The rates sound about right. If anything I would like to err on the side of stiffening up the rears. I'd like the option to remove the rear sway bar and balance with a stiffer front bar to improve traction.
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Originally Posted by swoope
(Post 2934802)
ding, ding.
nice to see you around george! beers :beer: Thanks swoope. I was about to suggest that they set the springs up to work well with both the OEM and Progress sway bars (if that were possible) but StrokerAce brings up a good point. I know this approach (no rear sway) is common in the Miata community. Anybody else have comments on that? |
Originally Posted by StrokerAce
(Post 2935595)
I'd prefer a little less than 1" drop. With the 1/2+- from the Koni's a full inch would be a little more than needed. IMO. The rates sound about right. If anything I would like to err on the side of stiffening up the rears. I'd like the option to remove the rear sway bar and balance with a stiffer front bar to improve traction.
With regards to rear stiffness, one other option is for Progress to make multiple spring rates available for the fronts & rears. e.g. Front: 450, 425, 400 Rear: 300, 275, 250 If this were the case, serious autocrossers would probably want to purchase multiple sets of front and rear springs as they figure out the right spring rate balance for asphalt & concrete. |
Originally Posted by chiketkd
(Post 2935624)
Agreed on the drop. I'd like to be at a 1" total drop when on koni yellows (which seem to be the most common/popular performance shock in the RX-8 community).
With regards to rear stiffness, one other option is for Progress to make multiple spring rates available for the fronts & rears. e.g. Front: 450, 425, 400 Rear: 300, 275, 250 If this were the case, serious autocrossers would probably want to purchase multiple sets of front and rear springs as they figure out the right spring rate balance for asphalt & concrete. And on that note there are now going to be 2 Springs being offered and Manufactured and designed by Progress at our Request. There will be a Track Spring 450/260 Maybe 270, but the rear is reaching the limits of coils on the spring, If I remember correctly from our conversation today. Then there will be a Street Spring with lower rates in the 230/180 Range. The Track spring will be exclusively available through Fluid Motorsports and will hopefully have 2 prototypes to get some field testing *cough* need a volunteer. *Cough* Not Just yet of course ;) The Challenge in Front of me is 40-50 spring sets will be needed to make the project remotely affordable, if the demand is there for the majority of that I have no issues pushing this through. Thank you to everyone for their input and please continue to watch this, please feel free to post up to express interest. The more interest I see, the more this project will see production. |
^Any idea on what the targeted ride height drop will be for the Track Springs?
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Originally Posted by chiketkd
(Post 2935700)
^Any idea on what the targeted ride height drop will be for the Track Springs?
Range is 1.2-0.8 |
Originally Posted by Fluid Motorsports
(Post 2935831)
We are going higher initially and once we get Field testing feedback we will go from there.
Range is 1.2-0.8 |
I favor the 0.8 better..
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Originally Posted by Winning 8
(Post 2936167)
I favor the 0.8 better..
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the RX-8 has a fairly low roll center already. Going too low changes the angles of the control arms and drops the roll center too far, giving it greater leverage on the springs. You have to increase the spring rate to compensate for the increase in leverage. Keeping the car just above a 1" drop, like .8" places it within it's sweet spot. Look at the championship-winning Speedsource cars. They avoided dropping their cars very far at all. What does Speedsource know about the RX-8 chassis? Think they've extensively modeled the motion of the control arms to see what happens?
Boy you must really an an "in" with Jeff at Progress Technology because I asked them two years ago to do RX-8 springs! All I heard was "blah, blah, blah... not enough of a market..." :D |
Originally Posted by PhotoMunkey
(Post 2936295)
the RX-8 has a fairly low roll center already. Going too low changes the angles of the control arms and drops the roll center too far, giving it greater leverage on the springs. You have to increase the spring rate to compensate for the increase in leverage. Keeping the car just above a 1" drop, like .8" places it within it's sweet spot. Look at the championship-winning Speedsource cars. They avoided dropping their cars very far at all. What does Speedsource know about the RX-8 chassis? Think they've extensively modeled the motion of the control arms to see what happens?
I'm just wondering if somebody has something specific as to why .8" would be better than 1." Looking at the Speedsource cars, I'll agree they don't look slammed, but I sure can't tell if they have lowered the cars .8, 1" 1.2" etc. by looking at the pictures. Besides, wouldn't they use custom control arms & links to correct the geometry? Not trying to be a PIA, just wondering if somebody has something specific. |
Originally Posted by PhotoMunkey
(Post 2936295)
the RX-8 has a fairly low roll center already. Going too low changes the angles of the control arms and drops the roll center too far, giving it greater leverage on the springs. You have to increase the spring rate to compensate for the increase in leverage. Keeping the car just above a 1" drop, like .8" places it within it's sweet spot. Look at the championship-winning Speedsource cars. They avoided dropping their cars very far at all. What does Speedsource know about the RX-8 chassis? Think they've extensively modeled the motion of the control arms to see what happens?
Boy you must really an an "in" with Jeff at Progress Technology because I asked them two years ago to do RX-8 springs! All I heard was "blah, blah, blah... not enough of a market..." :D
Originally Posted by GeorgeH
(Post 2936387)
Yes, I'm familiar with all this.
I'm just wondering if somebody has something specific as to why .8" would be better than 1." Looking at the Speedsource cars, I'll agree they don't look slammed, but I sure can't tell if they have lowered the cars .8, 1" 1.2" etc. by looking at the pictures. Besides, wouldn't they use custom control arms & links to correct the geometry? Not trying to be a PIA, just wondering if somebody has something specific. 0.8 is best becasue going to low you start getting negative camber, among others issues. Swift went with that number as well, he favored 1.2 and .8 the most Front to rear. Talking to him today, he is extremely intelligent and has been doing this for a long time I am confident in his decisions and hope to see this project through. |
Originally Posted by Fluid Motorsports
(Post 2936524)
0.8 is best becasue going to low you start getting negative camber, among others issues.
Swift went with that number as well, he favored 1.2 and .8 the most Front to rear. Talking to him today, he is extremely intelligent and has been doing this for a long time I am confident in his decisions and hope to see this project through. |
are they doing the street springs, the same height ???
if not where I could get some camber kit for rear, because I don't need 2.3 degree of camber driving 360 days on the street.and five days on track. |
would love to see 1 in the front, and .8 in the rear..
that sounds kinda dirty. :) beers :beer: |
Originally Posted by MilesJ
(Post 2933247)
Revalved Konis + stiff springs should work well for STX.
A revalve *may* not be needed. With the miata koni sa's, a revalve isn't needed unless running rates above 450-500 lbs/in. I sent Lee Grimes @ Koni the following e-mail and I'll post up his response. Hi Lee, I purchased a set of Koni SA's from one of your US vendors for my 2006 Mazda RX-8. What are the stiffest spring rates I can run front and rear on my car before needing a revalve? Many thanks! |
Originally Posted by chiketkd
(Post 2938186)
Miles,
A revalve *may* not be needed. With the miata koni sa's, a revalve isn't needed unless running rates above 450-500 lbs/in. I sent Lee Grimes @ Koni the following e-mail and I'll post up his response. This should be interesting. |
Originally Posted by chiketkd
(Post 2938186)
Miles,
A revalve *may* not be needed. With the miata koni sa's, a revalve isn't needed unless running rates above 450-500 lbs/in. I sent Lee Grimes @ Koni the following e-mail and I'll post up his response. |
I don't know how to run the numbers myself but here are Shaikh's dyno's of the Bilstein and the OTS Koni vs OEM Tokico.
http://forum.miata.net/vb/attachment...chmentid=69391
Originally Posted by Shaikh@FatCatMotorsports
(Post 2536977)
No Bilstein HD plots until I turn a different dyno adapter on the lathe. Following are the OE Tokicos and Koni Sports with some comparisons of average F vs. V and full-loop F vs. V (interesting behavior shows up! ;) )
Shaikh FRONT http://www.fatcatmotorsports.com/iga...kico_Fr_Rr.JPG http://www.fatcatmotorsports.com/iga...Koni_vs_OE.JPG http://www.fatcatmotorsports.com/iga...Koni_vs_OE.JPG http://www.fatcatmotorsports.com/iga...HYSTERESIS.JPG http://www.fatcatmotorsports.com/iga...HYSTERESIS.JPG http://www.fatcatmotorsports.com/iga...HYSTERESIS.JPG REAR http://www.fatcatmotorsports.com/iga...ff_vs_Soft.JPG http://www.fatcatmotorsports.com/iga...HYSTERESIS.JPG http://www.fatcatmotorsports.com/iga...HYSTERESIS.JPG |
I think the koni shocks could handle 500lb front and 350lb back. Got a friend driving a FD using those spring rate, and a FD only weight 2600lb.
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Still no response from Grimes -- hopefully I'll hear something soon. I'll also try calling their technical support.
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Originally Posted by TeamRX8
(Post 2934131)
I'm glad to see he finally listened ... :hahano:
KW Variant 3 and Ohlins PCV use 450/280. we knew this. we just thought going much stiffer was better and we were wrong. :banghead: :eyetwitch |
speed source also has to contend with acceleration traction problems with that 3 rotor they run. this changes things. After being fully satisfied with a koni yellow, tein h springs and rb bars on my street/track set up --now that i have added a little over 100hp to the picture--this has changed everything. If i dont get a little acceleration "squat" (weight transfer) the rear end will break out easily. So currently I am searching once again for a better set up. I like the progressive spring idea.
Point is --speed source is a completely different car than most of us run--dont compare. olddragger |
Originally Posted by olddragger
(Post 2943335)
speed source also has to contend with acceleration traction problems with that 3 rotor they run. .......
Point is --speed source is a completely different car than most of us run--dont compare. olddragger |
This is my initial response from Lee:
Hello Chike, You have asked the new "most popular question" that I get these days but the problem is that there is no specific answer to it, it is a general ballpark at best but first needs more info. The problem is that this question only considered two things: spring rate and valving. It totally ignore many other important things like usage (street, racing, autoX, missed usage), driver preferences, other mods to the car, etc. Shocks don't work in a vacuum, they are important components that have input from or to a wide variety of items that work together. Anyone who says "they are good for 600 but not 650" for example is either fooling themselves or fooling you as you cannot just draw a single line like that. As soon as you do, we can find examples of people who are happier with higher rates and obviously we can make a big difference on track or autoX with stock springs and revalving. For certain there are spring rates way outside the ballpark that would need more valving but they would likely not be used that realistically anyway. If you would like to call me, we can discuss this further so I can get some input on your wants and needs. My office phone is xxx-xxx-xxxx ext xxx and my work cell is xxx-xxx-xxxx from 8-5 eastern time and often later a bit. Lee Grimes KONI North America
Will post his response. :) |
FWIW, the spring rate ranges I mentioned to Lee that were being considered were as follows:
Front: 400-500lbs/in Rear: 250-325lbs/in See his response below: Chike, Looking at the valving, I would think those spring rates would be well within the acceptable ballpark if the shocks are adjuster at or in the upper end of the adjustment range. Of note, that application already has quite a very great deal of compression damping in it off the shelf and could not be increased really if the shocks were to be revalved. The front rebound makes a good bit of force but can certainly be increased with revalving if needed. The rear has room for increases in both bump and rebound although the bump is not particularly low on that end either. My suggestion would be to run the car with your spring upgrade and decide for yourself if you feel like you need them to be revalved. If you find that the car is best at the max setting and more range above that would be better, then it is a candidate for revalving. By comparison, the current B Stock national champion won on the off-the-shelf KONI Sport valving with no revalving so they are already pretty capable out of the box. Lee Grimes KONI North America Chike, You will be fine with the range that you're looking at. The 325 is getting towards the upper end of the range of the adjustment but you'll still likely end up at a quarter or half turn off of full firm even with the 325# spring rate. Thanks. |
Originally Posted by chiketkd
(Post 2943993)
FWIW, the spring rate ranges I mentioned to Lee that were being considered were as follows:
Front: 400-500lbs/in Rear: 250-325lbs/in See his response below: I also sent a similar e-mail to Koni's Technical support department and got the following response: So it looks like the spring rates being discussed within this thread are well within the valving capabilities of the off-the-shelf koni shocks. :) |
I didnt think that they ran a 2 rotor car anymore? Speed Source that is?
OD |
I want to ask is the springs going to be linear springs, or progressive springs??
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Originally Posted by olddragger
(Post 2947110)
I didnt think that they ran a 2 rotor car anymore? Speed Source that is?
OD FWIW, to the best of my knowledge the spring rates used in these koni cars are being referred to. I think in Team's STU thread, during his suspension trial-n-error "process" he did try running the road race stiff springs used on koni challenge cars. |
Bump. Any update on this project Fluid?
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eric meyer also warned about going to low as that will change the suspension geometry. i believe he said somewhere around 1" was about right.
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Originally Posted by chiketkd
(Post 2971334)
Bump. Any update on this project Fluid?
Unless more people are ready to pony up some money now, it will be a challenge getting these to the market faster. I am bit hesitant at taking a risk for a 50 spring order outright....without more interest. I know the interest is there, I guess it is the safety net I am waiting for. Also I believe Progress is amidst his designs or he could be waiting for a final go ahead from me. I will talk to him today possibly if not early next week. |
Added a poll vote!
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Thanks Fluid. I voted. You can count on me to buy at least one set, possibly two. Even though I can't run these springs until after Solo Nats, I'll purchase a set if they come on the market before then.
-Chike |
I'm interested in a set. Also willing to be a tester if you throw in some sway bars too. :)
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Originally Posted by mp5
(Post 2974336)
I'm interested in a set. Also willing to be a tester if you throw in some sway bars too. :)
Lol I got so many PM's about that... |
Originally Posted by Fluid Motorsports
(Post 2974465)
Lol I got so many PM's about that...
beers :beer: |
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