PerSmitt

Yes I admit a bit of a provocative subject considering how many times this subject has been beaten to near death with a cold trout. Still stay with me because I have a few observations and questions that I would like to discuss.

When having pressed the DSC once you can kick out the tail and you can 4 wheel drift and everything. I believe we all can agree on this point. However you will still note the system interfering with your driving during heavy breaking. An example is when you brake too late for a turn and are forced to turn in (or land in the sand) you will hear a sound that is more than the squeal of the tires struggling. I don't know if it is the diff or the brakes working but there is definitly something there working.

And here comes the little warning on this subject: Your 8 can decide you are an idiot that shouldn't be driving. Mine has done this twice to me now (both times because of a missed brakepoint). This was done on a european RX-8 so I cant say for certain about other locations but I guess it would be similar.

This is the procedure:
1. Miss the brakepoint
2. Step fully on the brake to engage the ABS and turn at the same time
3. If you have bad luck the ECU now thinks you are a looser and will start to cut the gas a bit intermittantly. After the turn it will not allow you to drive faster than 50 mph. After a little while it will permit you to go all the way to 100 mph (if you are lucky) and then it will cut the gas again.

This was solved by going into the pitstop, disconnecting the battery for a while (or turn the starter) to make certain everything is drained. Then reconnect the battery and the RX-8 works like a charm again.

So a word of advice for all weekend racers out there. Turn off the DSC completely by holding the button 7 seconds to avoid the humiliation of crawling around the track to the pitlane while being passed by everything out there.

Spin9k

Good observation...but consider that the car may be right...missing breakpoints is worthy of a timeout and consideration of your untimely actions that caused you to upset your friend so much!

PBlue

iTrader: (1)

What ?!!?? !?!? ??! !!?!???!?! !!?!!? !???!?!?

PerSmitt

Yes it really happened. It is more prone to point out you are an idiot if the entire system is activated. I got the punishment after 1 lap only when I drove on Anderstorp (A Swedish Formula1 track). The reason, I had left the dsc system completely on for the first lap just while I got comfortable with the track.

Note all of you who have punished your car hard on the street: There is NO way to drive as hard on the street compared to the track so I doubt you would see this behavior.

I also want to stress that I know of two European cars this has happened on. One Finnish and one Italian (yes mine is an Italy import) so I cannot swear it will affect any other version of the RX-8 than the european.

And Spin9k, you are very right. My 8 is trying to tell me this about my cornering.

PBlue

iTrader: (1)

suffice it to say, i dont believe this.
I will test it out in a few weeks and report back.

I just dont understand why they would engineer a car to do all these ridiculous things, let alone writing the software for something and then not telling anyone about it.

I have spun out at autox going 60-70, and yes I have been full throttle, then full brake and full turning the wheel (was thinking about something that happened right before the run, i no longer answer the cell phone while waiting in line). Ive spun out, drifted, and fked up all kinds of brake points, and never ever has the car not wanted to go over 100, and i take the highway home so traffic cruises at 85, and crossing 100 to pass is normal.

PerSmitt

PBlue, when you are autoX-ing do you just press DSC or do you hold 7 seconds? As far as I understand the problem will not appear if you have pressed for 7 seconds, only if you have DSC fully on or partially on. (That means that I have never managed to reproduce it with DSC fully off)

PBlue

iTrader: (1)

I press it once, as the manual says, and as logic dictates.

PerSmitt

Then I would believe that it is a difference between the European and American models. The first time it happened to me I was reacting just like you: WHAT?! Did I just shoot my engine?

I know how hard punishment you give the car on the autoX so if you haven't gotten it to happen there I don't think you can get it to happen. However, i know other autoXers on this forum who claim faster laptimes once the button has been held 7 seconds. Don't know if it is Australian or American RX-8 though.

There is a graphical difference once you hold it 7 seconds. You get a little icon indicating a drifting car that is lit up constantly (which I'm sure you are already aware of). So whether holding it 7 seconds does something other than cosmetics on the American model I leave to you to find out.

And heck, if there is something that might improve lap times, shouldn't we at least try it?

xsnipersgox

your fuel pump seems to be dying.

PBlue

iTrader: (1)

The manual even states, if you hold it, it trips a CEL, which explains the other symbol. this has been done to death. Think logically for a second, holding it down doenst do anything more than turning it off. It cant be any more off. its fcking off.

iwannagofast

ahahaha

PerSmitt

Definitly not. This was clearly a limiting action on the part of the ECU. Here are the reasons why it was the ECU and not the fuel pump.

1. It is always directly after there has been major interference from the DSC/TCS. Otherwise I have never gotten anything like it. Even when I press the gas fully on a straight.

2. I have had it with a full tank. Fuel pump issues are after at least half tank is down.

1. Does the manual say directly that the icon is because of the CEL? I wouldn't know since my manual is in italian. Normally you would get a CEL symbol on the dash when a CEL has fired, not a drifting car. Your statement doesn't hold.

2. What is written in the manuals of various things are usually basically correct, but as with all technical documentation it is written by people who usually dont fully understand what they are writing.

3. There are video evidence posted on this forum when Best Motoring demonstrate the various modes and explain the differences.

4. There are drivers who have reported differences in lap times at autoX or track with the DSC just pressed or held for 7 seconds.

5. Holding the button down for 7 seconds could have another impact on the software. You have not read the source code, I assume, so your guess is just that a guess. As a programmer I can verify that it is very common with undocumented features in applications and this holding like 7 seconds is a typical way of having an undocumented feature. I mean seriously, why would a CEL fire because you hold a button 7 seconds if not someone wrote software for it to happen?

I for myself can hear a different sound when the car understeers if I have only pressed the DSC once. If you cannot then that is probably a model difference. I am just saying this quirk exists in the European model and I am wondering if anyone else has experienced it.

John V

iTrader: (1)

I forgot to press and hold the DSC button at the Atlanta Tour in '05. I just did the single brief press (this after completely forgetting to press it during a previous run ) The car spun the tires fine off the line, but when I braked hard for the first corner, engaging the ABS, the stability control system turned itself back on. The car wouldn't let me do any hard maneuvers without interfering.

I never forgot to press and hold after that because I wrote myself a note to do so.

kersh4w

iTrader: (3)

holding the DSC for 7 seconds does indeed store a fault code that a mazda dealership can view.

also, go ahead and search for "fuel starvation when tracking" or something similar. its a common problem.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Bingo !

To the op - this is how conspiracy theories start !

swoope

iTrader: (5)

i back this up.

i got the symptoms with 3/4 tank full. with tc and dsc on..

btw,

one push turns of the the traction control.

7sec turns off tc and dsc. that is how it works on my car..

beers

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

you mean the "can't go over 50mph" symptoms ?

swoope

iTrader: (5)

cant go over 50 tends to be cat. or new motor..

and what i talked about was fuel starvation on track left turns with 3/4 tank full....

beers

TheWulf

iTrader: (4)

From what I experienced:

Pressing it once turns off DSC

Holding it for 8 seconds turns off DSC and TC. This is shown by the "slippery" icon lighting up in the dash as well as the DSC off when doing this procedure. The exact procedure is:
- Hold DSC
- Turn key 2 clicks (right before start)
- Wait for 8 seconds
- Crank and start the car
- Release DSC
- BOTH lights will light up.

/tested on a 2006 GT, Canadian market.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

congratulations on finding a new way to do it !

PerSmitt

I am a bit uncertain how to interpret this. The conspiracy theories about 7 second DSC or fuel pump? As far as I know both are two very separate and very real issues.

And well about it being the fuel pump. My issue only happens once the stability program has had to work EXTREMELY hard. Nowadays I always hold the button 7 seconds and if the issue were to come back I will admit it is the fuel pump, but until then I believe it is the ECU messing with my head.

I have a track-week in the end of august, plenty of time to experiment when there are 4 days on the track in one week

And finally, lets drop the discussion if something is more off after being held 7 seconds or not. Some people (including me) have noted during heavy braking assistance from the ECU after one press. We are not stupid mindless sheep but actually racers and auto-crossers who actually have a tiny bit of a clue how it feels to drive a car, and we can hear and feel the difference when the support systems are engaged. If others who are tracking cannot feel any difference then we can only conclude that there is a model/firmware difference. This is not a "I'm right you are wrong" discussion. This is about various people having experienced different behavior from their RX-8s.

Btw, think about it. The European ECU doesn't work with the American RX-8, so there has to be some differences, right?

kersh4w

iTrader: (3)

the other way to do it just to hold it down for 7 seconds and both lights will light up too!

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

was refering to the heavy braking/dsc thing leading to only getting to 50mph . Don't you think Mazda wanted us to brake heavily ?
instead they designed a cleaver disabling thing that they don't even tell us about that we have to do to be able to take the car to the track . I don't think so .

More likely your fuel pump is dicey or some other fault is putting you into limp mode .
What lights come up on the dash ?

PerSmitt

I fully agree with you I cannot understand why someone would write such software for the exception that it is some form of safety program that if you have done something very stupid, you get a cooldown period. But yes, I agree it is idiotic, and so does my fellow racers who laughed at me after I had limped into the pits.

No light at all came on the dash. There was no indication at all that something had gone wrong.

The behavior was also odd because at first I was limited to 50 mph, but then the ECU decided: Ok you can go a bit faster. The car worked like a charm for the rest of the lap till the straight, once i hit 90-100 mph it went, oh no no and pulled me down to 50 mph again. Thats what made me feel it was not the fuel pump. I had it fine and accelerating and if it would be fuel starvation it would just stay at that speed, but nopes, full engine brake down to 50 mph. And if i went below 50 mph I had 100% of the power and then the moment I hit 50 mph the power directly vanished. Doesn't sound like a fuel pump to me.

And this is the whole reason why I am bringing up this discussion. In every third thread here someone curses about a dealership and their lack of knowledge so it is hardly there I can get the answer if this is an error or a programmed behavior. My hope is that someone with more knowledge or even inside knowledge in the ECU would know about this and say exactly what it is.

StuttgartRX8

I've never seen this happen with my European RX8, I went to Nurburgring on Sunday and I partially turned off the dsc and ran a 1/4 tank of gas and I had no issues the car performed like it always does. I ran Hockenheimring last year and I run it with holding the button down all the way and no problems then either.