Pettit RX8 going to NASA Time Trial
07-03-2010, 05:54 PM
#27
going to dyno/weigh and corner balance at Balanced performance---soon.
Going to do 3nd gear runs--maybe 4th?
Have spoken with engine builder and a 8K redline is safe for me and that would still allow a little cushion.
Getting new set of r6 hoosiers next month.
OD
Going to do 3nd gear runs--maybe 4th?
Have spoken with engine builder and a 8K redline is safe for me and that would still allow a little cushion.
Getting new set of r6 hoosiers next month.
OD
07-04-2010, 03:45 AM
#29
The dyno and classing must reflect everything the car is capable of doing without intervention by the driver.
Imagine if everyone dyno'ed to the RPM they felt was "safe" and then pulled out that extra 1500 RPM when they "needed" it!
Sandbagging your dyno is cheating.
07-04-2010, 08:24 AM
#31
Registered
Yea, I have to agree. The Honda S2K that is in first place in TTD for the season with me is running very strong. There's no real competition. He can do minor mods to his car and get huge gains. We make the same mods to our cars and get minor results.
Denny, can't you run the dyno in 5th to the rev limiter just to define your numbers even though you do not plan to go beyond 8K at the track?
Denny, can't you run the dyno in 5th to the rev limiter just to define your numbers even though you do not plan to go beyond 8K at the track?
07-04-2010, 09:41 AM
#32
the rotary engine can run to almost 10 K before e shaft problems. Does that mean I have to do that?
hell no.
ls 6 engines can run to 8K--do they do that--hell no
Rick has said 8K is safe but he doesnt advise over 8.3 on my build.
if anyone question my rpms (ha) then i will have data to back up the 8K redline for every session.
its common sense and if someone is sandbagging in a NASA TT class then they need to get a life.
nasa will soon be going to a gps system anyway to help weed out whatever "cheaters"e out there. At least that is what I have been hearing.
Don, only going to take it to 8K period. gear really doesnt natter. I am told a lower gear may show a higher hp number?
Jeff doesnt anyone ever c/o that you may be running a different ecu map? Mind you please--not that you are, and I dont think you would--but your system does have that capability, so that is something anyone could ? --right?
thats why anyone can challenge a car and a dyno is done post session while the car is in impound.
olddragger
hell no.
ls 6 engines can run to 8K--do they do that--hell no
Rick has said 8K is safe but he doesnt advise over 8.3 on my build.
if anyone question my rpms (ha) then i will have data to back up the 8K redline for every session.
its common sense and if someone is sandbagging in a NASA TT class then they need to get a life.
nasa will soon be going to a gps system anyway to help weed out whatever "cheaters"e out there. At least that is what I have been hearing.
Don, only going to take it to 8K period. gear really doesnt natter. I am told a lower gear may show a higher hp number?
Jeff doesnt anyone ever c/o that you may be running a different ecu map? Mind you please--not that you are, and I dont think you would--but your system does have that capability, so that is something anyone could ? --right?
thats why anyone can challenge a car and a dyno is done post session while the car is in impound.
olddragger
07-04-2010, 10:51 AM
#33
Registered
07-04-2010, 12:28 PM
#34
It's only a joke for those who are not "favored" by the rules.
Really, the power-to-weight classification system with mod-points is an excellent system.
But like all systems, you need to master it and use it to your advantage.
Generally, the people that say its a "joke" are the types that complain about "the Man" and sour grapes and all that.
If that is what your rev limiter is set to, then yes.
If you want to run an 8k rev limiter, then it MUST be in your flash.
I don't know what YOUR racing experience is, but out here, people take it very seriously. TT-B is often a $100k initial buy-in. Don't even ask about TT-R.
Absolutely. I dyno with my race flash and I compete without the AccessPORT and I am required to verify that my operating flash is the one that was used to establish my baseline at impound.
If I were at Miller in September, I would be required to remove my OBD-II connector from the car completely.
Really, the power-to-weight classification system with mod-points is an excellent system.
But like all systems, you need to master it and use it to your advantage.
Generally, the people that say its a "joke" are the types that complain about "the Man" and sour grapes and all that.
If you want to run an 8k rev limiter, then it MUST be in your flash.
If I were at Miller in September, I would be required to remove my OBD-II connector from the car completely.
07-04-2010, 05:26 PM
#37
So Jeff does that mean all cars reclassified have to have a redline that is either mechanically or electronically verified?
I havent seen redlines mentioned in the TT rules?
As far as taking it seriously--i do think the nasa ttb guys do, but i will be a small fish in a big pond. TTB seems to be one of the most popular classes in the SE. I will not be doing a 1:38 at Road Atlanta, no way. Not without a cage. i will be one of the few using a DD in the TTB class.
And remember i have proof every session that i didnt go over 8K.
Impound--thats my point. Mine can be verified anytime--just likes yours.
Have to admit its a good question---how is the modified engines redline determined and who does it?
Don--flash is free for yall---damn! S2's have a BIG edge.
OD
I havent seen redlines mentioned in the TT rules?
As far as taking it seriously--i do think the nasa ttb guys do, but i will be a small fish in a big pond. TTB seems to be one of the most popular classes in the SE. I will not be doing a 1:38 at Road Atlanta, no way. Not without a cage. i will be one of the few using a DD in the TTB class.
And remember i have proof every session that i didnt go over 8K.
Impound--thats my point. Mine can be verified anytime--just likes yours.
Have to admit its a good question---how is the modified engines redline determined and who does it?
Don--flash is free for yall---damn! S2's have a BIG edge.
OD
07-04-2010, 05:42 PM
#38
Besides being a dishonest thing to do, if you dyno and leave 1500 RPM on the table and then, in an event, you find yourself using that 1500 RPM, you are subject to a "teardown" or a challenge.
If I were one of your competitors and I heard that you dyno'ed only up to 8000 RPM, I'd challenge your results just to have you DQ'ed.
If you put it on the dyno as the result of the challenge and you were able to get to 8050 RPM and made only 1 extra HP, you would be black-listed.
07-04-2010, 06:46 PM
#39
It's only a joke for those who are not "favored" by the rules.
Really, the power-to-weight classification system with mod-points is an excellent system. But like all systems, you need to master it and use it to your advantage.
Generally, the people that say its a "joke" are the types that complain about "the Man" and sour grapes is all
Really, the power-to-weight classification system with mod-points is an excellent system. But like all systems, you need to master it and use it to your advantage.
Generally, the people that say its a "joke" are the types that complain about "the Man" and sour grapes is all
I have never attempted to run NASA, but have served on the SCCA rules committee and have a good understanding of the overall classing issues so your sour grapes argument fails in that regard. It's just the opposite, which is why NASA has flourished in that regard but not so well as an overall serious racing organization.
07-04-2010, 07:06 PM
#40
Registered
Yea, that's why I'm say'n I don't have a chance. Right now, I'm 3rd in points and only 50 points behind John (onrails RX-8) for second place. He has one more event than me. He and I run very close. I'm not making excuses, it's just a fact. That S2K is untouchable with 775 points. John has 420 and I have 370. The S2K has set track records in TTD at CMP (1:49.84 - new layout) and Roebling Road (1:22.49). I gave it everything I could at Road Atlanta and he beat me by a couple seconds. Until my daily driver has a roll cage, harness, hans and seats, I will have to hold back a little, like you Denny. I'd say that considering that I drive mine to work every day, I'm very pleased with the results. Also, just for ***** and grins, I do have 2 first places and 1 second place finish this season. Since I have only run in 4 of 10 days with NASA-SE, I'm pretty comfortable with my car and driving.
Denny, I think I would talk to Jeff England (NASA-SE Time Trials Director) and get him to approve what your are suggesting. I say that because it would be nice to know going in just what you can expect rather than assuming it is OK. He may say that if you have documentation from Rick that all is well but I would want it defined ahead of time. Is it possible for you to set your redline with the set-up you have?
Denny, I think I would talk to Jeff England (NASA-SE Time Trials Director) and get him to approve what your are suggesting. I say that because it would be nice to know going in just what you can expect rather than assuming it is OK. He may say that if you have documentation from Rick that all is well but I would want it defined ahead of time. Is it possible for you to set your redline with the set-up you have?
Last edited by SilverEIGHT; 07-04-2010 at 07:10 PM.
07-04-2010, 08:49 PM
#42
Yep Don---thats what i have in mind.
by the way na engines also are recommend an under 9K redline.
Jeff -posing this question on the TT board.
i will let all know what is said.
Hell any rule can be bent!
On the regional level i have never heard of a challanged being done. nationally ---yes.
by the way na engines also are recommend an under 9K redline.
Jeff -posing this question on the TT board.
i will let all know what is said.
Hell any rule can be bent!
On the regional level i have never heard of a challanged being done. nationally ---yes.
07-05-2010, 02:26 PM
#43
well looks like i will not be running in TT. Director says it has to be taken to rev cut--- i think that is around 9.5?
he does acknowledge that the engine redline is not mentioned in the rules.
What he said makes sense:
"This is definitely a problem. Once we are using GPS regularly to test compliance, it won't matter nearly as much. However, if you have a motor that is physically capable of making more power, and their is no actual rev limiter put on it, then how would you propose that we allow you to run based on those lower levels (that are adjusted by your foot)? We do not have the time or manpower to check your OBD2 data recordings after each session you run. As far as I'm concerned, if we have a car that is not rev limited, and the power curve on the Dyno is still heading upward at the point that the owner wants the Dyno operator to stop the testing, we should just extrapolate where that curve is headed to the actual known redline. However, as you state, it is not specifically written in the rules. It is written in the rules that NASA will determine how to run the Dyno testing, though. And, if I am running the testing, and I have this situation, then I will just determine that the owner is failing to be compliant with the testing by not allowing testing to redline--ie, DQ. We unfortunately cannot just rely on the word of a competitor that he won't run past a certain rpm on the track when there is nothing to physically stop him/her, and we do not have the methods/resources available to adequately ensure compliance.
As well, I have not seen your request for Dyno re-classing. I'm hoping that you are not under the impression that you can just max the car out at the limit of Adjusted Wt/Hp ratio for a class, and then choose your own base class to start calculating your points at.
No way in hell am i taking my boosted engine to 9.5K and i bet most other boosted guys dont either.
No way that i know to lower the rev cut outside of installing an aftermarket system. I am not doing that.
It looks like the end of the road.
OD
he does acknowledge that the engine redline is not mentioned in the rules.
What he said makes sense:
"This is definitely a problem. Once we are using GPS regularly to test compliance, it won't matter nearly as much. However, if you have a motor that is physically capable of making more power, and their is no actual rev limiter put on it, then how would you propose that we allow you to run based on those lower levels (that are adjusted by your foot)? We do not have the time or manpower to check your OBD2 data recordings after each session you run. As far as I'm concerned, if we have a car that is not rev limited, and the power curve on the Dyno is still heading upward at the point that the owner wants the Dyno operator to stop the testing, we should just extrapolate where that curve is headed to the actual known redline. However, as you state, it is not specifically written in the rules. It is written in the rules that NASA will determine how to run the Dyno testing, though. And, if I am running the testing, and I have this situation, then I will just determine that the owner is failing to be compliant with the testing by not allowing testing to redline--ie, DQ. We unfortunately cannot just rely on the word of a competitor that he won't run past a certain rpm on the track when there is nothing to physically stop him/her, and we do not have the methods/resources available to adequately ensure compliance.
As well, I have not seen your request for Dyno re-classing. I'm hoping that you are not under the impression that you can just max the car out at the limit of Adjusted Wt/Hp ratio for a class, and then choose your own base class to start calculating your points at.
No way in hell am i taking my boosted engine to 9.5K and i bet most other boosted guys dont either.
No way that i know to lower the rev cut outside of installing an aftermarket system. I am not doing that.
It looks like the end of the road.
OD
Last edited by olddragger; 07-05-2010 at 02:35 PM.
07-05-2010, 03:07 PM
#45
Nature vs. Nurture
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This is still higher than you want to go, but when the tach reads 9,500, the engine is actually at 9,000. The tach reads high. I have a Cobb and can check my actual RPM. At 8.500, my engine is at 8,200. A dyno reads the actual rpm, so your tach will be incorrectly higher than the dyno reads.
07-05-2010, 03:11 PM
#46
Second:
If you have not engineered your system to take it all the way to the end, then you need to decide where the end is and program that into the EMS.
Certainly, all the other boosted guys I tune take it to the end. I have the logs.
Since you have a flash tune, tell your tuner to lower your redline. End of story.
Last edited by MazdaManiac; 07-05-2010 at 03:16 PM.
07-05-2010, 03:28 PM
#47
" I told you so?" God -sounds like we are married.
So the cobb can take the rev cut to a lower rpm?
I should call Cam.
Others are going to 9K?
Thats nice--keep them screaming.
I wonder if all reclassified TT cars are running a rev cut?
OD
So the cobb can take the rev cut to a lower rpm?
I should call Cam.
Others are going to 9K?
Thats nice--keep them screaming.
I wonder if all reclassified TT cars are running a rev cut?
OD
07-05-2010, 03:33 PM
#48
lol
Of course.
Not like he can help you with the AccessPORT.
Mine is set for 9200. Most are similar, though I've had a few ask for 10k.
I usually recommend 8900 for the smaller turbos.
All cars have a rev limiter. By "rev cut", do you mean a lowered rev limit than stock?
In TT reclass, you run on the dyno. Where you stop is up to the director.
Of course.
Not like he can help you with the AccessPORT.
Mine is set for 9200. Most are similar, though I've had a few ask for 10k.
I usually recommend 8900 for the smaller turbos.
All cars have a rev limiter. By "rev cut", do you mean a lowered rev limit than stock?
In TT reclass, you run on the dyno. Where you stop is up to the director.
07-05-2010, 03:45 PM
#50
Asshole for hire
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OD - I'm certainly no expert here but reading that quote it sounds like all you need to do is alter your fuel cut to whatever you want your max rpm to be and your good 
i imagine you should be able to do this with your current flash capability. if not, a few hundred for the Cobb would be a small investment IMO to get you on the right path
i imagine you should be able to do this with your current flash capability. if not, a few hundred for the Cobb would be a small investment IMO to get you on the right path