GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

There has been a lot of discussion about national level competition on this board, but what about local PAX competition? We have a very competitive PAX class here in the Oregon region, and while I’ll make it to a tour event, and maybe even nats, my main objective will be to compete in the local PAX class.

I’m looking at three possibilities – BS, STU, or BSP. The setups I would be using would be something like the following:

BS – 245 V710s on OEM wheels, Konis (possibly converted to double adjustable), exhaust.
STU – 275 615s or 265 Neovas on 18x9.5 wheels, KW Variant 3s, sway bars as needed, intake & exhaust
BSP – 285/30-18 v710s on 18x9.5 wheels, KW Variant 3s, sway bars as needed, intake & exhaust

Now, I know the BSP setup above wouldn’t be nationally competitive, but remember all I care about is being competitive at the PAX level.

The PAX factors for these three classes are:

BS – 0.822
STU – 0.82
BSP - .843

This means that if I could run a course in 60 seconds in BS trim, I’d have to do it in 58.5 seconds in BSP trim and I could take a leisurely 60.1 seconds in STU trim.

Any opinions on what would have the best chance in PAX? Seems like BS to me. BSP is intriguing but I don’t know if the extra 1.3 inches of tire (on an extra 1.5 inches of wheel) coupled with the coilovers would cut 1.5 seconds off a typical course. STU seems doubtful – you are basically asking for the coilovers (and a touch more power) to make up for less grippy tires.

Our courses will be an interesting mixture of very tight at some events, and more open, nats-style courses at others, due to a grand total of three different venues. All will be on asphalt.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

No doubt the softest index there is STU. Of all the ST classes only STU and STS2 dont have to go faster then the stock class the cars came from. STS and STX cars all have to go faster than those same cars do in stock class. Your main problem with STU in the NW is weather, if it rains the StiEvos will kill you. Stay away from BSP unless you are ready to double your budget and parts list. Cost wise BS is your best bet. Just a matter of if you like to tweak on your car and how much money you want to spend.

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

I'm not too worried about the STis in the rain, mainly because most of the Subaru crowd runs ST, not PAX. But yes, if one decides to land in PAX then that would be an issue.

So, you think STU has a softer PAX than BS? Interesting.

As for BSP I have no intention of building a nationaly competitive SP car - I know (more or less) what goes into such an excersize and I do not want to go there. I'm just trying to asses the competitiveness of the hypothetical BSP setup I show above against a well sorted BS or STU car.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

STU is soft, its a fact, look at the numbers:

2006 pax
STS.797 HS.780 GS.795

STX.803 DS.798

STU.820 AS.831 BS.822

STS2.802 ES.806

If you want to pax good in STS you have to beat GS. If you want to pax good in STX you have to beat DS. Funny the top cars in those ST classes are also rans right now in stock, Civic (HS) and WRX (DS), but the shine in ST. STU can go slower than BS and AS and still pax good, that tells me it is slow. I understand it may take some time for the STU cars to get to that level, just dont be shocked if that index gets jacked way up in 07'.

I dont think a few bolt ons and a big set of V710s would make for a good BSP car even at local events. Even your STU setup is only a fraction of what needs to be done. If you run PAX in OR or NWR you are going to face off with people that have cars set up for natls, if you go in half @ss you will get a beat down. I know I started racing in the NWR and OR region.

StrokerAce

Pax is based on cars prepared to the limit nationally. If you care about it you need to be in a class that you can prepare to the limit. People running preapred and modified (and street prepared to a lesser extent) complain about it because they are much further from a to the limit car than your average unprepared stock car is to the stock rules.

If you want to pax well you not only need to drive well but have a well prepared car (relative to national compeditors).

Ray

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

Yes, I suppose I knew all this. BTDT in CSP. If you don't have a "real" CSP car you don't do well in PAX. Thanks for the reality check, guys.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

Another reason to stay in BS is the NWR just got soft... Steve is selling the 968 so you know you wont see him or Ron... You only have to deal with Goeke.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

if STU is soft it's only because the RX-8 has yet to be pursued fully there yet. The E36 M3 is not even close to running the top times in BS and the Subaru STi is limited by tire/wheel size restrictions relative to it's output and weight that don't apply to to the other ST classes, so the comparison being made above is not very valid, IMO it will be quite a feat to get an RX-8 to run National level BS times in STU trim, it's not as leisurely achievable as you might think

and don't put much faith in the PAX, if you understand anything about it then you know it's a secondhand swag at best, there's not that much science behind as this year's late "correction" on several classes after a bunch of B&M'ing clearly showed

it's for fun only, not serious competition

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

I 100% agree PAX is BS, not B stock , I hate it. My point is look at the raw times for those cars and classes.

2005 Natl:

STS Civic 118.455 winner
HS Mini 119.692 winner
HS Civic 120.214 4th place past natl champ driver
GS Mini 118.534 winner
So an STS Civic is faster raw than its HS counterpart and even GS.

STX subi 121.634 winner
STX BMW 330i 122.526 2nd place
DS BMW 330i 122.650 winner
The best DS subi was 28th, so I would say they all gave up on DS and went to STX where they are going faster than the DS winner.

STU had some weather issues as did AS so I will only look at the dry day
STU Sti 62.428 winner
STU M3 61.692 2nd overall but quick time in the dry.
BS RX8 58.919 winner, quick time for the day was a 58.829
AS 993 porch 58.213 winner
AS C4 vette 57.841 2nd overall but quick time in the dry.

I will say I dont remember the weather for all the classes but I think you can see a trend. STS and STX are faster than the stock version of the same car. STU was way off. I am sure that will change as the class is still new.... Could be all the STU guys will hate Mark next year when he gets the index bumped.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

I new you would wimp out... Even with Ron gone.
Yeah go up there and run, I bet FM cant even beat Glen A in the 350z.

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

True, but ironically enough, most of the top drivers in OR region run PAX. Had I run in CSP proper last year I would have won, for sure. But in PAX I am toast - Jim Daniels (CSP) Jerry Jenkins (ES) Tom Kotzian (SS, multi-nat champ) Andy Howe and many others easily beat me (PAXed, and often times raw), both because they are talented drivers and have thouroughly prepped cars.

Anyway, because of the depth of talent in our PAX field I prefer to run there, to see how I compare to some of the better drivers.

George

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

yes, we run there not to take points/trophies away from regional competitors who care about that sort of thing, we do it for fun

locally we're lucky for it to be more than fun, one group offers an additional 2 runs for an extra $10 as a PAX Challenge event with a money payback, at the last event I ran in BS trim I won back my event money, the PAX Challenge money, and an extra $15 for 3rd overall


http://www.autocross.com/er/cc1005.htm#bs

http://www.autocross.com/er/cc1005.htm#r


outside of that it really doesn't mean anything

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

Perhaps to you, but I can tell you that locally there is genuine rivalry in PAX. Yes, we all understand it's not a "real" driver's contest, and that some cars have an unnatural advantage (can you say Mini Cooper S) but still, there is a freindly competitiveness present and people really want to win.

Congrats on your win, though. Not bad for a self-described "hack" driver.

Cito

I found that the PAX was actually quite a good indicator of where I stood in my region relative to known national-level competitors (Brian Goodner, Jeff Ellerby, Ron VerMulm), it indicated that I sucked pretty bad. And at Nationals, that was pretty much right on.

Cito

ULLLOSE, don't your numbers really point to going to BS instead of STU at least at this point with the given pax

STU M3 61.692 2nd overall but quick time in the dry. 61.692x.82= 50.59
BS RX8 58.919 winner, quick time for the day was a 58.829 58.829 x .822 = 48.357

Unless an STU RX8 is going to make up 2+ seconds over a BS RX8, it would seem that the way to go here that would be cheapest and most competitive per PAX would be BS???

Imp

I agree. 275 tires plus a little exhaust work and lighening the car (sprung and unsprung weight) will not gain an STU car, on street tires, 2 seconds.

Getting the car under 2650 lbs might gain you just under a second, if it can be done at all. (Exhaust/brakes/rotors/wheels/seats/AC delete/few other things). There's hardly any power to be made through tuning and exhaust.... so negligible time available there. Wider tires are what may help you maintain speed through certain sections... but even the good street tires are at least 1-2 full seconds behind R-Compounds.. that's a bit to make up... you'd need to not only match r-compound times, but exceed them by another second... and truthfully, I don't see that happening. Maybe gaining the 1 second you lost to them, but not gaining any extra time over them.

--kC

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

LOL, that old wive's tale is still circulating around eh ....


2650# is pie in the sky IMO, you'll be lucky to reach 2700# in STU legal trim and only then with an all out max effort, some parts will need to be custom.

.

Imp

Note: I didn't say there wasn't any power to be made, but you won't be making the same gainst like the EVOs and STis will.

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

Not quite right. The STU RX-8 has to make up 2 seconds on the STU M3. It only has to match the BS RX-8, to be competitive in PAX. And, assuming the STU numbers this year at Nats do not represent as much car development and driver skill as the BS numbers, we really don't know right now how close they will be.

But, it's hard to imagine that the slower STU tires would be completely offset by a set of coilovers & an intake. A full STU setup perhaps, but not the setup I listed in my first post. And yes, I know BS would be the cheapest route to PAX competitivness, I just would love a good excuse to get those KWs.

Cito

Yep, that was poorly worded. The fact is that you are going to have to make up about 2 seconds with only the allowed mods. STU is not only going to be more expensive, but also less likely to be competitive in PAX, IMHO. But, good luck, I have been wrong about these things most of the time