ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

So what Ron lays down on day one in the 968 to give us all a false hope. Then beat SS on Sunday and the rest of BS by a second.

PedalFaster

Super Stock ran first, in cold, dirty conditions, so they're not a particularly good reference for comparison.

I know both Joe and I felt we had left a lot on the table, but yeah, Ron opened up a gigantic can of whoopass on his last run.

Icemastr

Whose car did Karl Coleman end up driving? Looks like he and Amy ran Jacob Nygaards mini? How was the weather for the weekend?

fastmike

Weather great.

Karl's crank broke in the MR2.

I had a great day one..paxing OK in the MiataR then BOOM! had a REALLY bad day2.
Miata was not geared correctly for day 2 course.(not really great gearing on day one either/10AE was near perfect gearing for both days).
Never got close to rev limiter either day but day 2 was a killer due to gearing. I don't think I got over 40 mph for the first 2/3 of the day 2 course. Too fast for first though...
Ron did put the smackdown on the class day 2 but still paxed out about a pax second short for the weekend.
Maybe the 968 tq pulled it through on day 2?
I bet a 04 up S2000 would of been awesome on the course.

Fun event. Indoor pits were nice.
No camping onsite which was a bummer cause lots of parties got split up.
One of the fun things at Bremerton is the camping/party onsite.

FM

Imp

Nice run Ron. Nationals is a month and a half away.

Putting the smack down on the 2nd day in a tour... I love it when that happens. :D

--KC

ronbauer

Thanks guys. I didn't realize that I had been faster than SS, but to be fair, Kevin ran a safe run on his 3rd run to stay clean. Stacey Molleker ran his SS Vette in ASP and ran a 46.5, so there was more time out there for SS.

In any case, both days were difficult for gearing on most cars. Both the RX-8s and the 968 were doing plenty of downshifting on day one. Joe also did on day 2, but Anna ran almost identical times using only 2nd, as did GH.

During fun runs on day 1 (yes, I said fun runs..... we were done with competition runs at 2:30 on Saturday and 1:10! on Sunday) Joe ran a 49.1 with a passenger. Not to be outdone, I ran a 48.9, albeit without a passenger.

In any case, I enjoyed Sunday a lot more.... ;-)

The next two weekends should be good. I'll be co-driving with Joe in his car for the Denver Tour this weekend, and with Keith Casey in his car for the Toledo Pro the following weekend. Should be some good comparisons to see just how the cars compare!

Ron

Icemastr

Joe's car was real fast at the Outlaw Pro Solo from what I could tell. Be sure to give us your comparisons after you drive his car.

dknv

I share your pain, on Sunday I found myself facing my inexperience when I could not get the car to power out of those turns up into the sweepers. But it was a fun and challenging course, a well-organized event, and the NW region holds nothing back in their hospitality and cameraderie.

Fastmike, Icemastr, I wish I knew who you guys were while I was up there so I could have met you in person.
-Debbie

Icemastr

You wouldn't want to meet us we are both Miata drivers . I didn't go to the NT anyways though because the owner of the car I was going to co-drive with decided not to go. I plan on racing a SM2 RX-7 or Vette next year or the year after though. I am still slow though.

fastmike

Sorry I missed you.
Shelbi and I and KevinD went to dinner with GH on Thursday night...maybe you were not there yet???

IF we have the Tour at Bremerton next year, it is a "don't miss" event.
I like being able to party onsite after racing but this is not possible at Packwood since it is private property.

I don't blame Greg for the funky short sections on course(Heck! I was course set up with him). Rumor was that Nat office wanted more room between the slalom and the rest of the course causing Greg to design around this requirement.
WAY more than what the rule book calls for.
Saturday was not as bad as Sunday IMO. It seemed to flow ok.
I had a lot of fun on Saturday running the course. Sunday was UGH.

In regards to the 968, I think that the 8 has an equal chance when it can get revved up in second gear but when you so many sections that catch the 8 at the top of first or the bottom of second too much, the 968 is going to always win due to TQ imo. Greg's 944 TQ'd me off on Sunday forsure!!LOL!

FM

PedalFaster

I'm not sure the RX-8's at that much of a disadvantage to the 968 when out of its powerband. The 968 is a slug off cam, and has a very pronounced surge in power at 4000 rpm. We were between gears in all the same places the RX-8 was this weekend -- I was shifting four times on Saturday's course.

I still say we should find a freeway somewhere and do some rolling acceleration comparisons between my 968 and someone's RX-8...

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

Well the 968 does have like 70 ft lbs more tq than the RX8, that does not hurt. Also the RX8 like most Mazda gear boxes is not a great one for the 1st gear down shift. I would guess your 968 has a ZF, if it is anything like my vette ZF was it will let you go into 1st gear if you are going 60mph and dont match revs. :D

However should not be an issue in KS.

PedalFaster

Instead of worrying about our dinky little four cylinder when the going gets tight, we should all be worrying about those 350Zs. Very few people noticed that the third-fastest BS time on Sunday was actually set by Glenn Austin in his 350Z...

dknv

On Hoosiers.

fastmike

I watched Ron's fast Sunday run and it was with no shift to first after 3 cone.
I think you should use the tq if you have it..
You diff sounds weird too..Like it kinda chatters while turning and accelerating.
Maybe you should run better/different oil in it?
I don't think the shift to first in the finish on Saturday gained anything either for anyone. I just looped around it at a high speed.
You have 150lbsft of tq at 2000 rpms at the rear wheels. That is pretty good. I will compare it to the 8's which is on my home computer when I get home tonight.


When and where do you want to do this roll on?
I think the 968 is going to walk away from the 8.
Get going about 35 in second gear and punch it until whatever car hits it's revlimiter in second.
How fast does the 968 go in first and second?
8 might have some overrev in second on the 968 though.

8 will be at Everett on Saturday for ladies practice.
Doesn't have the straight pipe yet though which should help a little.
Gonna be there to help?
I might(not confirmed yet) have a 04 TurboPorsche showing up with a couple ladies that want to try out autoxing...
FM

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

there's no point comparing an RX-8 with a 968 in straight line speed contest, that's not where the RX-8's strength is nor is it really relative to an autox comparison

no problem shifting to first in my RX-8, it has triple synchros, practiced it plenty of times on the street but have yet to run an autox course that required doing so, my RX-8 starts coming on strong around 3500 rpm, which in 2nd gear is 25 mph on race tires

Catback straight pipe on an RX-8 will require earplugs if you intend to drive it on the street for any distance, not so much the volume (though quite loud) as the high pitched frequency buzz that drills straight into the core of your brain, I'm sure I suffered hearing damage on the trip to Wendover

fastmike

The course this weekend totally favored low rpm TQ which imo, does make the "roll on" a good comparison for autox between the 8 and 968.

I listened to another 8 with a straight pipe and liked the sound. Not bad at all...Did I do Fwy cruising with it? nope....Sure was a high quality job.
Place for a SS straight through muffler if needed at a later date. That thing sure sounded GOOD on course though!!!

Rumors that the 968 is misclassed come and go. Just want to add some real world tests to the debate.

My guess is that the 8 will outbrake the 968 in any test so that might be a +++ for the 8.

FM

ronbauer

FWIW, the 968 has a Variocam or something like that which really changes it's character at higher revs. I think it's VERY worthwhile to downshift the car in most of the same instances that the 8 downshifts.

We're still fighting inside wheelspin, so 2nd gear had plenty to break that inside tire loose as it was on Sunday. 1st was just another possibility of getting it all wrong! ;-)

Ron

PedalFaster

Mike, I'm going to be out of town for a week starting Thursday, but once I get back I'll PM you to set up some roll-on tests.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

eh, I'm sure you know more about it than me ... best wishes

fastmike

Send me a mail when you get back Steve and we will go eat and do the test(s).

I looked at Shelbi's dyno sheets with her ghetto straight pipe and stock exhaust(straight pipe best with a little high rpm missing).

They are in MPH(4th gear I think) and not rpm(too lazy to do the conversion) but 8 has a little over 100 ft lbs going up to 133-8ftlbs(140ft lbs on it's best run) and back down to a little over 100ft lbs at rev limiter.
Hp gets up to mid 180's.

I think? the 8 is geared higher then the 968 in first and second so....any quesses to which one is going to win this "roll on" tq/gearing test?
I do think that this matters alot in autox in this years BS class.

I think that 8 is lighter than the 968(how much???) which negates "some" of the 968 advantage on certain sections of certain courses.

FM

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

If your dyno run was in 4th gear you need to do it over. 5th gear is 1-1 in the RX8 not 4th.

PedalFaster

I wouldn't put too much weight on dyno chart comparisons, both because conditions may have varied, and also because of the RX-8's known tendency to dyno low.

We spot you a bit over a hundred pounds. We weighed the 968 at Atwater, and while I forget its exact weight, it was around 2940 - 2950 lbs. in race trim. From what I've seen, prepped RX-8s get into the low- to mid-2800s; there was some talk earlier of sub-2800 lb. cars, but I've yet to see one myself.

I don't know whose first gear ends first, but I noticed at Packwood that Anna Goeke was riding rev limiter in first gear between the start and the first turnaround for noticeably longer than Annie or Ron. This suggests that either the RX-8's first gear is shorter, or the RX-8 launches harder.

fastmike

Dyno runs go up to about 153.5 mph...Is that revlimit in 5th or 4th?
FM

fastmike

Hmmm....thanks for the info. I did not think that your car was that close in weight to the 8...I thought you were heavier.

In regards to dyno'ing low, we had about 10 8's there on that dyno day and Shelbi's was pretty good but not the best and all numbers are corrected for whatever the "70F at sea-level" or whatever dynojet uses for a correction factor.
TQ is pretty pitiful for the car....I think my Miata might beat the thing in a 20-45mph second gear roll on.
It would be interesting to do a math chart of the 2 cars gearing/tire od to see what is up.
The 8 does go to near 9000 rpm so I don't know what mph that is in first. I am surprised that you guys(968) were not shifting to second at the Sunday start section???
I was in second for a good ways in the Miata.

FM

FM