Overheating - turbo vs na on track comparison
05-22-2008, 02:38 PM
#77
That depends on how much labor on my part is involved. If you need me to engineer the whole thing, that will be a LOT of money. On the other hand, if you have already figured out how you want to do it and know the dimensions of the radiator you want built it won't cost a whole lot by comparison. However, if the finished rad meets the specs that you submit and it still doesn't fit right, that is your responsibility. I am not being harsh here, just realistic, and you now know what it is I am doing with the BHR stuff and why each revision costs me a LOT of money. Whenever I mess up I hafta eat the cost, too. The latest revision was mostly me just accomodatinig the top-mount turbo guys like the Esmeril and PTP kits. I ate a bunch on that one.
Last edited by Charles R. Hill; 05-22-2008 at 02:40 PM.
05-22-2008, 10:19 PM
#78
It did seem to run a little hotter with rays intercooler, we are problem solving and I am sure Ray will have an answer into how to increase cooling of our charge temps for us pettit guys. This was a beta track test in the south---one of the best places to do this!
Olddragger
Olddragger
05-22-2008, 10:28 PM
#79
After talking over OD's particular situation with Cam, I am leaning toward pointing people to my radiator before using the new intercooler. My reasoning, at this time anyway, is that the factory rad has a difficult enough time flowing air through it and to add a larger heat exchanger just makes matters worse. On the other hand, getting my rad, which flows air through it better, will help improve the efficiency of whatever intercooler/heat exchanger is in front of it. The rads have kicked *** on every car that has them from what my customers tell me. The thing that somewhat puzzles me, except if my above supposition is correct, is that the heat exchanger uses the same core design as my rad.
05-23-2008, 09:09 PM
#80
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After talking over OD's particular situation with Cam, I am leaning toward pointing people to my radiator before using the new intercooler. My reasoning, at this time anyway, is that the factory rad has a difficult enough time flowing air through it and to add a larger heat exchanger just makes matters worse. On the other hand, getting my rad, which flows air through it better, will help improve the efficiency of whatever intercooler/heat exchanger is in front of it. The rads have kicked *** on every car that has them from what my customers tell me. The thing that somewhat puzzles me, except if my above supposition is correct, is that the heat exchanger uses the same core design as my rad.
another thing i want to share is the ducting to the radiator. there are huge open spaces on the sides (especially on the driver side) and the bottom of the radiator. i am making some panels to close the bottom and the sides as much as possible to see how much it will help.
05-23-2008, 09:26 PM
#81
The problem here doesn't seem to be that the heat from the exchanger is overheating the radiator. I believe it to be that the exchanger is blocking airflow from an already somewhat compromised radiator(factory) and the efficiencies of both are then compromised. I'll return to the project in a little bit after I take care of a few cars I am working on/sponsoring.
05-24-2008, 10:37 PM
#83
The problem here doesn't seem to be that the heat from the exchanger is overheating the radiator. I believe it to be that the exchanger is blocking airflow from an already somewhat compromised radiator(factory) and the efficiencies of both are then compromised. I'll return to the project in a little bit after I take care of a few cars I am working on/sponsoring.
beer
05-28-2008, 01:57 AM
#85
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HI, FWIW I thought I would put in my 2 cents worth.
Background is that I run a Promaz turbo setup (220+ KWrw or 295+ HPrw @ 9-10psi) and track this car occasionally even though it is set up as an everyday drive.
I have no heating issues on the road, even on days in excess of 40oC (96oF).
However on the track under constant boost I find the car is running quite hot, hotter than I’m comfortable with. i.e. Water Temps above 110oC (208oF) and Oil above 130oC (240oF).
It has been my belief that the intercooler has robed my radiator (non stock PWR upgrade) of air flow. In the attempt to assist I placed ducting from the front of the car to behind the intercooler which has certainly helped but no over come the problem.
I’m currently redesigning the undertray to incorporate a “scoop” to collect air from underneath and channel directly to the radiator behind the intercooler.
If I have this mod complete prior to the next track day in June I hope to report the outcome.
Other things I have contemplated are, Greddy Oil Pan, MAZPORT water pump, methanol injection, thermostat mods/change, vented bonnet.
BTW I have already opened up all the blocked grill moulded diamonds and remove the number plate on the track!
I must admit that I'm attempting to modify my driving techniques to some degree changing gear earlier than I used to.
Background is that I run a Promaz turbo setup (220+ KWrw or 295+ HPrw @ 9-10psi) and track this car occasionally even though it is set up as an everyday drive.
I have no heating issues on the road, even on days in excess of 40oC (96oF).
However on the track under constant boost I find the car is running quite hot, hotter than I’m comfortable with. i.e. Water Temps above 110oC (208oF) and Oil above 130oC (240oF).
It has been my belief that the intercooler has robed my radiator (non stock PWR upgrade) of air flow. In the attempt to assist I placed ducting from the front of the car to behind the intercooler which has certainly helped but no over come the problem.
I’m currently redesigning the undertray to incorporate a “scoop” to collect air from underneath and channel directly to the radiator behind the intercooler.
If I have this mod complete prior to the next track day in June I hope to report the outcome.
Other things I have contemplated are, Greddy Oil Pan, MAZPORT water pump, methanol injection, thermostat mods/change, vented bonnet.
BTW I have already opened up all the blocked grill moulded diamonds and remove the number plate on the track!
I must admit that I'm attempting to modify my driving techniques to some degree changing gear earlier than I used to.
05-28-2008, 11:05 AM
#87
hint on your oil temps(a little high for us rotaries) --open up the front part of the front fender chad some--i just cut a big unobvious hole in mine and placed a screen over it. It seems to help some--highest oil temps I have ever had is 230F.
Also if you can drive the track under 8Krpms--that helps a lot with temps.
Part of our "problem" may be the a/c condenser.
My ideal set up would be
1-a vertically mounted air water intercooler(same size) with dual fans and shroud,
2- a 1 gallon coolant tank with a cool can relocated away from the front of the car, 3- stainless finned connecting hoses,
4- a larger fluidyne radiator(i like fluidyne and Be Cool products),
5- an electric water pump( i have been wanting one for years!!) with time delay, 6- 6- better radiator shroud,
7- a 180F thermostat,
8- a vented hood
9- a little bigger oil coolers with thermostat.
Charles Hill or Mazsport needs to get busy!
and I need to make more money
olddragger
Also if you can drive the track under 8Krpms--that helps a lot with temps.
Part of our "problem" may be the a/c condenser.
My ideal set up would be
1-a vertically mounted air water intercooler(same size) with dual fans and shroud,
2- a 1 gallon coolant tank with a cool can relocated away from the front of the car, 3- stainless finned connecting hoses,
4- a larger fluidyne radiator(i like fluidyne and Be Cool products),
5- an electric water pump( i have been wanting one for years!!) with time delay, 6- 6- better radiator shroud,
7- a 180F thermostat,
8- a vented hood
9- a little bigger oil coolers with thermostat.
Charles Hill or Mazsport needs to get busy!
and I need to make more money
olddragger
05-28-2008, 11:31 AM
#88
Well, Denny, I got plenty busy on the radiator a long time ago and they are available. See how much Be Cool will charge you to make one. I know I did.
Last edited by Charles R. Hill; 05-29-2008 at 12:02 AM.
05-28-2008, 04:42 PM
#89
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at least for people who has aftermarket radiator, close the bottom gap between the undercover and the bottom of the radiator. factory radiator has a around 1.5" thick foam to seal that gap. i think a lot of air actually goes through the gap rather than the radiator core, especially at higher speed when the pressure difference becomes more significant:
05-28-2008, 08:36 PM
#90
I know Ray-- it would be much more than yours and not anymore effective, radiator wise.But they can deliver a custom make with a custom twin fan/shroud combo that totally seals the front for about 2K. Needless to say i will not be getting one from them! if I get a new radiator it will be from you!
hey Get us a thermostat!!!
OD
hey Get us a thermostat!!!
OD
06-10-2008, 10:27 PM
#94
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After a lot of thinking I have decided to change tack. Along the same lines as sammytcl I have looked at closing the gap between my aftermarket radiator and under tray. I have placed foam between them and made a bracket to apply some resistance so that the gap does not open (allowing air to flow under radiator) when travelling at high speed. Also I have made a path (stiff rubber matting) that forces the air from the front grill area over the top of the intercooler into the path of the radiator. This may rob some of the air from the intercooler but I don’t think that has been my problem.
Hope to trial this mod on June 20th.
06-12-2008, 10:01 PM
#95
those of us that are running the rb cold air scoop are experiencing(i have come to find out) a very significant recirculation swirl at the TOP of the i/c, a/c and radiator stack. A recirculation swirl like this can decrease the radiator's air flow by over 30%
More to come on a fix--which may mean modifying the rb scoop among other things.
olddragger
More to come on a fix--which may mean modifying the rb scoop among other things.
olddragger
06-13-2008, 01:12 AM
#96
those of us that are running the rb cold air scoop are experiencing(i have come to find out) a very significant recirculation swirl at the TOP of the i/c, a/c and radiator stack. A recirculation swirl like this can decrease the radiator's air flow by over 30%
More to come on a fix--which may mean modifying the rb scoop among other things.
olddragger
More to come on a fix--which may mean modifying the rb scoop among other things.
olddragger
would be nice if you could use the area in the grill above, that is totally blocked by design.
beers
06-13-2008, 09:54 AM
#97
SMoke/camera test at speed. When the fans turn on it helps,but it still continues. It looks like the rb scoop creates somewhat of a hollow space --so to speak-- that promotes this recirulation swirl. the air backs up in from of the coolers --normal resistance pressure--but because of the shape that is caused by the scoop the swirling starts. Easy fix is to remove the rb scoop.
Also, remember the oldthread from Australia that spoke of their cars running hotter and slower with the rb scoop? This was happening during those long high speed outback drives they we doing.
The challange will be to get cold air into the engine bay/airfilter AND stop this affect. Which way we do this is the question.
I need to add that at low speed driving it is not as pronounced. But over 35mph or so it becomes apparent. Higher the speed the worst it gets.
AND before I die i am going to make the side vents fully functional! The way i am feeling today --i need to get started on it soon.
olddragger
Also, remember the oldthread from Australia that spoke of their cars running hotter and slower with the rb scoop? This was happening during those long high speed outback drives they we doing.
The challange will be to get cold air into the engine bay/airfilter AND stop this affect. Which way we do this is the question.
I need to add that at low speed driving it is not as pronounced. But over 35mph or so it becomes apparent. Higher the speed the worst it gets.
AND before I die i am going to make the side vents fully functional! The way i am feeling today --i need to get started on it soon.
olddragger
06-20-2008, 08:44 PM
#98
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OK, hit the track yesterday and can provide feedback on my efforts. I previously mentioned I had placed rubber "scoop" to channel air from front grill area over intercooler onto the radiator and placed foam between bottom of aftermarket radiator and undertray (with reinforcing bracket). However also changed over to Greddy Oil pan.
Observations were that it took longer to heat up and quicker to cool down. Even though was a cold day (15oC or 59oF) temps still reached 110oC (230F) for water and 120oC (248F) for oil.
Note this track has two reasonable straights where I'm under boost all the way reaching 205-215 kmh (127-133 mph) before hard braking.
Improvement was the rate at which it cooled back to 90oC (194F) when I backed off the pace.
I assume extra volume of oil in pan was a help. Still need to get them temps down further escpecially before summer comes around.
Observations were that it took longer to heat up and quicker to cool down. Even though was a cold day (15oC or 59oF) temps still reached 110oC (230F) for water and 120oC (248F) for oil.
Note this track has two reasonable straights where I'm under boost all the way reaching 205-215 kmh (127-133 mph) before hard braking.
Improvement was the rate at which it cooled back to 90oC (194F) when I backed off the pace.
I assume extra volume of oil in pan was a help. Still need to get them temps down further escpecially before summer comes around.
After a lot of thinking I have decided to change tack. Along the same lines as sammytcl I have looked at closing the gap between my aftermarket radiator and under tray. I have placed foam between them and made a bracket to apply some resistance so that the gap does not open (allowing air to flow under radiator) when travelling at high speed. Also I have made a path (stiff rubber matting) that forces the air from the front grill area over the top of the intercooler into the path of the radiator. This may rob some of the air from the intercooler but I don’t think that has been my problem.
Hope to trial this mod on June 20th.
Hope to trial this mod on June 20th.
06-21-2008, 07:20 PM
#99
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thanks for sharing your data.
mine intercooler placement is a little different from yours. it's stock greddy location. the lower opening on the front bumper is still mostly open for direct airflow to the radiator, only the grill area is blocked by the intercooler. the intercooler is also getting direct air flow to ~80% of its surface area.
i will be testing my set up (closed bottom and side gaps) next month (july 14th) on track again expecting ambient temp around 100+ F. all i need is 20-25 mins of wot run while keeping the water temp below 230 F.
mine intercooler placement is a little different from yours. it's stock greddy location. the lower opening on the front bumper is still mostly open for direct airflow to the radiator, only the grill area is blocked by the intercooler. the intercooler is also getting direct air flow to ~80% of its surface area.
i will be testing my set up (closed bottom and side gaps) next month (july 14th) on track again expecting ambient temp around 100+ F. all i need is 20-25 mins of wot run while keeping the water temp below 230 F.
Last edited by sammytcl; 06-21-2008 at 07:28 PM.