Eradicator

*noob alert*

So I'm new to the whole heel-toe thing. I must be doing something wrong because I feel like I can't contort my foot/leg the right way to even get my heel on the gas pedal while braking, let alone pressing it down to rev. What am I missing here? Do I need to have my seat moved up more than "normal"? Can you only heel-toe when you press the brake pedal completely?

RobDickinson

uh, sry to spoil your day but you dont use your heal (mebee one day pre stoneage).

Brake with the top of your foot and use the side on the accelerator. But it depends on pedal layout and foot size etc.

It isnt easy to get right, especialy when your pushing the limit already, takes some practice.

mikeb

practice indeed
practice makes perfect
but be cautious please

Foureagles

Noob :

Ball or arch of the foot on the brake, little piggy on the throttle. If that's a stretch, just reach down (NOT NOW -- STOP FIRST!!) and bend the throttle closer to the brake.

Disclaimer: My size 12 moccasins make bending the 8's throttle unnecessary, so I haven't checked to see if Mazda extended the reach of electronic nannies all the way to the pedals.

{{{{

Ophitoxaemia

one other thing: generally heel toe is set up for when you are threshold braking and the brake pedal is depressed deeply. for normal namby-pamby street braking the throttle may remain out of reach, and then of course no heel-toe is required.

check rear view mirror before threshold braking in this car! :D

james

M-ster

If this
would be of any help.

Wingnut

I know my b-e-a-utiful silver RX-8 has synchronizers (as most all production manuals have) but does anyone here double de-clutch? For those who don't know but read the description of heel-and-toe previously linked, it is similar with a intermediate step added, roughly:

1. Begin braking.
2. Depress clutch.
3. Shift to neutral.
4. Release clutch.
5. 'Blip' throttle to a RPM a little higher that the engine speed will be when downshift is complete (engine speed will decrease slightly before downshift is complete).
6. Depress clutch.
7. Shift to lower gear.
8. Release clutch while keeping throttle near mesh speed.
9. Finish braking.
10. Accelerate out of corner.

Something like that.

Here's someone else's description...

It should extend synchronizer life (they seem to be the first to go on manual transmissions). I do it much of the time because I can't stand to hear my poor baby's synchronizers scream as I down shift especially 4th to 3rd or 3rd to 2nd (I won't mention 2nd to 1st, I haven't had the heart to do that since my '86 and '80 RX-7 days.) I would never do it on my 8 and there's no practical reason I can thing of but with practice you can shift without the clutch (O.K. not from start into 1st.)

Any toughts?

Wingnut

eccles

I've "double shuffle"d since I first learned to drive in my mother's '68 Mini, which had attrocious synchros. My first car was a '57 Hillman Minx, which had NO synchro on 1st, so I continued the practice.

27 years later, I have to make a conscious effort not to double-clutch on a downshift. Done properly, it can make a significant difference in both the smoothness and speed of downshifts - something which has always stood me in good stead on the track.

blizz81

I do a lazy double clutch turns at times (or just straight downshifting in turns). Main difference is I blip the throttle after I'm in gear, when I'm done braking through the turn and ready to accelerate out.

Which means the synchros aren't getting any help, but it can still help maintain smoothness.

Encouraging that someone noted a heel-to-toe method above that's toe-out. I'm bow-legged and can turn my feet 90 deg out like Mary Poppins, but can barely go back past straight the other way that's more commonly done on heel-to-toe.

lefuton

erm, correct me if i'm wrong but that description and the one in the link was for normal heel-toe? atleast that's what i've been doing all this time.

that and for those who want to learn, you may (or may not) be better off learning just how to rev match while downshifting first before tackling heel-toe. once you get the concept and it becomes more of a reflex than thinking about it you can try heel-toe =P

another thing i noticed in that link was to practice heel-toe slow... i personally think that's really really difficult... personally would recommend practicing the motions in the car while it's off. or even the first few motions then eventually get through the entire thing.

Efini 8

my advice is just dont think about each step and do what comes natural. thats what I did and its like second nature to do - its sooo much fun (at least it is to me haha). I have only been driving manual for a few months and right now I am perfecting my heel toe as well as trying to 'drift' by kicking the clutch.

9-K Rever

I can say practicing your throttle blip on the downshift would be the first place to start...keep doing that unti you get a smooth down shift every time..then move up from there..

Efini 8

remember there is no "correct" way to heel-toe, it differs for everyone

sferrett

Here's a good video of a guy driving a rx8 around laguna seca with front, tach and pedal cameras and you can clearly see him doing some heel-toe action.

http://partners.musicmatch.com/test/...ime-attack.avi

You'll need the DIVX codec (just the free one will do) from www.divx.com:
http://download.divx.com/divx/DivX511Bundle.exe

bassik277

Is it really necessary to "shift to neutral" and blip the throttle? Because what I do is just shift down and blip the throttle with the clutch all the way in, and then release. Is it the same difference, or am i double clutching wrong?

eccles

What you're doing is a simple heel-and-toe, not a double-declutch which requires depressing and releasing the clutch twice (hence the name!).

hogcar

Just wondering, why would you double clutch a downshift?

eccles

When shifting down, the gearbox input shaft has to be spun up to allow the lower gear to mesh - this is what synchromesh does. Old older cars, double-clutching was necessary because they had weak (or no) synchros, so you had to bring the input shaft up to speed yourself to avoid crashing the gears.

On modern cogboxes, it's less of an issue, but I can still downshift faster and smoother with a double-clutch than by using the synchros alone.

Gord96BRG

Exactly what eccles said, and as Wingnut said earlier:
Synchronisers DO wear, albeit slowly in most modern cars. If you ever drove an Alfa Romeo from the 60s through the 80s, then you'd know all about premature 2nd gear synchro wear (gone in 20K miles) and that the only way to shift 3-2 without grinding it was to double-clutch.

(By the way, the Fast'n'Furious comedy movie made mention of double-clutching UPshifts, so I hear (I will never stoop to watch that drivel myself). On an 18 wheeler truck, it helps - but it's pretty useless and slow on any car I know of. It's really only on downshifts that double-clutching is of benefit.)

Regards,
Gordon

Hymee

iTrader: (1)

Good posts Eccles, Gord et al. Really sums it up nicely!


You have to 'heel-n-toe' to revmatch under brakes anyway.

"Double shuffle" is a left foot thing. Heel-n-toe is a right foot thing. They are normally used together. Probably better to learn and initially practice seperatley.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Genom

LOL. Probably? I'd say unless your pretty damn gifted at driving, it's a sure thing ya need to learn them separately :D

Len

Well, I know of such a car - my '92 Prelude, which had trouble getting into 2nd gear in the winter until it warmed up. And imagine double-clutching when the clutch pedal takes about a second to come up after you remove your foot.

Gord96BRG

Got me! :o Actually, there are quite a few cars that are tough to get into second gear when the gearbox is cold. I always switch to synthetic gear oil, it greatly reduces the problem.

Regards,
Gordon