wankelbolt

iTrader: (21)

There at the end is where the Carbotechs lose: XP10 are twice the price of HP+.

Do they last twice as long? Doubt it. Stop in half the distance? No. I'd bet money they can't stop significantly shorter than the HP+ since the limiting factor is ultimate grip of my R-compound Hoosiers. Trivial to get into ABS with the HP+ if I choose to. So what is the advantage of spending twice the price?

For most people here who track their RX-8s and have bills to pay the HP+ wins by virtue of best bang-for-the-buck.

I would love to do some head-to-head comparisons. Your profile doesn't mention where you are but I'm heading to Summit Point at least twice this month and would love to do a little lead-follow with somebody with different pads who thinks they are better. Might even swap cars if you can show me you know what you are doing. That invitation is open to any and all.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Go back to the first post and look at the graph..........

Now tell me the HP+ will work as well on a track as the HT10


You are beating a dead horse here with " it work OK for me" data

Spin9k

I see some commonality here in the comments and it seems to boil down to things like

- what I have tried
- value for money spent
- defending a product's name
- liking how it works
- personal preference

And these are all valid enough reason for using a product and there's nothing wrong with that. I agree that HP+ is a pad that works, causes no fade of note, and works both on the street and the track.

What I'm saying, and I'm sticking with this story...is that there are (un-named) products that I currently use, that for me, provide elevated standards of track performance that the Hawk HP+ didn't exhibit. Like light years better feel, like light years more responsive, longer wearing...I could go on... . Really. My car is maintained well and has no deficits that otherwise affect the brake performance. I'm sure I could endure a track day with the HP+, as I have done so many times. But I wouldn't want to because my standards of performance have risen beyond what that pad can provide.

Like many things, beer, wine, food, cheese, and lots in life....personal preference plays a part, but until you've directly compared one thing with another, you're basically speaking with no authority in comparing them. For me neither price, value for money, brand, or the fact that it has worked 'ok' on track is meaningful. What is important for me is that the brake 'feel' suits my braking style, the product does not fail, but works and lasts well while providing a superior braking experience. It's all very subjective, much like the "10 Best handling Cars" elsewhere on the forum, lots of peps may wonder how a freaking underpowered RX-8 could place third amonst some truly hot and expensive cars???? FCOL, they've never driven one and so can't imagine what could be so much better than their favorite XXXX ride, or the stories they read on the 'Internets'. But go figure, we know the reason!

If you're happy, great, if you wonder if there something more, try something else, be it Hawk or anything else....then tell us what happened. I did and never looked back.

wankelbolt

iTrader: (21)

That about sums it up.

You said HP+ was no better than stock, apparently with a straight face. That's ludicrous. The only explanations I can think of for that are you don't know what you are talking about (I don't believe that), you got cheap Chinese fakes, or something is wrong with your car.

Clearly. If "compromised" HP+ pads were "*****" no better than stock, I wouldn't be able to do that lap after lap would I? Non sequitur.

Mosport is about a ten hour drive for me. I'd love to come up there and do some head-to-head testing, but September is out and looks like I'm busy during the only open weekend event in October, then the season is done. Maybe next Summer? Summit and NJMP stay open into November, if you're interested.

As for "proper" Hawk pads, I do carry a set of Blues in case the HP+ pads start to fade, but haven't needed them yet. No argument, the Blues are coarse, brutal pads, but they stop the car right now!

Spin9k

The only thing clear, you've never taken a course in logic.

"It also clear that carrying more speed into a corner than a guy driving a superior car clearly proves one of the above points. "

"Clearly. If "compromised" HP+ pads were "*****" no better than stock, I wouldn't be able to do that lap after lap would I? Non sequitur."

wankelbolt

iTrader: (21)

OK. The HP+ will work as well on the track as the HT10 on an RX-8 that isn't a full-blown race car.

If the brakes can exceed the grip of the tires, repeatedly, without fading, you don't need more pad. That simple fact seems to be lost on some people here. They seem to think that spending more money on a "better" pad will give them better braking. Physical impossibility.

Better "feel"? Maybe. And there Spin has a point. But feel is subjective and ranks well below objective measurements of performance, durability, and cost for me. I want the car to stop, stop reliably, and not require me to replace the pads every track day or cost a fortune. I would think those objective specs would be important to most people who want to track often and bring the car home in one piece. Maybe I'm wrong.

wankelbolt

iTrader: (21)

I know an Ad Hominem attack when I read one.

Chris_Bangle

iTrader: (2)

^ You are missing my sarcasm

I said that even stock may be better, I have not been on stock pads in a long time but from memory they did not appear to be as bad as the HP+. (It is possible that my judgment was somewhat tainted by going from a proper Carbotech pad to the compromised HP+).

From what I understand Hawk has moved on from the Blues.

I am going to be at Mid Ohio with the ARPCA Sept 24-26 and again in late October with Buckeye BMW, I have no interest in NJMP, don't know anything about Summit. I will be running Xp10s in the front on stock rotors.

I see no merit in the argument of referring to 'outbraking' a superior car - I don't know anything about the other driver. We had a local guy here who constantly used to put up videos of him passing a corvette in his insight around the Mosport DDT track (wtf is that supposed to show us?).

The best way to compare the pads is putting a pro driver in the same car with different pads.

I have a friend who used to race professionally at a very high level, if you are ever at Mosport I can ask him to come out.

Spin9k

OMG you are missing out on two simple looking, but exceedingly challenging and enjoyable tracks. Esp. Thunderbolt, one heavenly joyous trackday experience You should try them...

tmak26b

I dont have direct comparison., but i do have something similar to offer. i have data from my car last year (xp10) vs a rx8 on hp+ this year. Despite running slower overall (due to a combo of driver, tires, shocks, power), my car would generate more g's under braking. Obviously the difference in cars and drivers might skew the result slightly, but i think the carbotechs do have a slight advantage.

As far as cost, i think the difference is small enough in the long run since hp+ are harder on rotors than carbotechs. i could have gone 3 or 4 sets of pads before new rotors.

No idea on pedal feel since they all feed scary after a few hotlaps.

Spin9k

..had to look that one up and I'm confused? I think...not sure lol!

What I was alluding to is the "superior car" reference doesn't prove you couldn't outbrake him...and beat him... after all isn't the RX-8 a superior (braking) car? Well, in fact it is .. a truly superior braking car ... it's one of the very, very, very, very best...even stock...or with 'oem_like' HP+ pads - and that's a fact. But that doesn't mean the pads are the reason.

Chris_Bangle

iTrader: (2)

^ I don't know if you are being serious but I have a list of tracks that I would like to go to. I am in Ontario and still have not been to Calabogie (so that's next). VIR is on the list as well as Rd Atlanta.

And to all of the Americans on here - an open invitation to Mosport, not sure there are many tracks around the world that would beat it for exhilaration + I believe it is the fastest track in North America. There is no room for error but the rewards of driving it are worth it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DWeejbOZnY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujj9RED_1QU

Spin9k

...why wouldn't I be serious? You live in Ontario and VIR and Road Atlanta a far far more distant. Calabogie is uniquely great as well. But I don't understand why you would dismiss NJMP, a new US $50M 2 track facility closer to your location.. call me crazy... dunno.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

I wish my laptop wouldn't have fried the hard drive with all of my old Traqmate data on it...you could easily see what happened to the HP+ after about 5 laps of our local track.....lap times got longer..and the braking decel was lower when the pads got greasy.....

Chris_Bangle

iTrader: (2)

I think you misunderstood me, I am not dismissing anything; there are tracks that I would like to drive, NJMP is not on the list. If I had unlimited funds and time, I would try as many tracks as I can, given that this is not the case, I have to prioritize.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

Guys---WTH?
HP+ pads versus race pad discussion?
I have seen HP+ used by drivers coming up through the ranks. As soon as they get faster they run out of pad in a 20-25 min race. And this is with a 3K lb car.
HP+R compound rubber and 20 min races do not mix. Thats undeniable.
Its a really good pad for its purpose.

Hawk has come a long way in the last couple years. The new hawk pads are MUCH more rotor friendly than the old track pads. Much better pads all around.

Plus their hats look damn good!
OD

tmak26b

I have been to NJMP (Thunderbolt). Track is better than average, but not great. I actually rank Mosport along the same line, nothing really special about it other than the two corners around Moss and the feeling of dying in T2 (or is it 3?)

In the upper half of the east coast, I would probably rate Glen 1 and VIR.

That's my opinion of course.

wankelbolt

iTrader: (21)

Not really, Denny. This started when JantzenRX-8 asked for a pad recommendation for an HPDE on a relatively slow course (post #34). I suggested he could save some money using HP+ and be very happy, after which other non-pros started in with "they are teh sUxXoR!" and telling him he needed really expensive pads, like pros use on fully-prepped race cars, to "feel" right. Or his car would burst into flames when he was flat-out.

Denny, I disagree. I run 25-30 minutes sessions on them with stock brakes and they last for days. I'm not a pro, but I'm not that slow either. At the end of a session the amount of pedal pressure required to generate enough braking torque to get into ABS hasn't noticeably changed. So there is zero benefit in a more-expensive, higher-torque pad in my application.

They aren't particularly hard on rotors either. I'm on my second set of HP+ pads on the same rotors.

No doubt Hawk makes better pads now. The HTC and DTC pads are by all accounts very good, but they are also twice the price and serious overkill for a HPDE with stock horsepower. Somebody with Eric's level of skill and preparation needs at least the DTC pads. Your average HPDE driver in an RX-8 does not.

Chris_Bangle

iTrader: (2)

While this is off topic and everyone's preference is difference, I don't know how many times you have driven Mosport but 2, 4, 5, 8 are all great corners but to really get Mosport you have to drive close to the limit - then it's exhilarating. It is very flowing with great elevation changes. Anyhow, thanks for the pads, I will try to make it to VIR next season.

Highway8

iTrader: (11)

I think people are missing the point. Read the first few post by Eric. He says go out and push your brakes to the limit, check the temps and select a pad within your brake operating range. If you are on street tires with stock suspension, hps will probably work fine for the street and track. If you have upgraded the suspension and use a performance tire or r-comps but don't push the limit on the track the hp+ will probably be the perfect fit and you can (but I wouldn't) use them on the street and track. Higher horsepower cars and/or cars with race tires with a good driver should be using a race pad (dtc or ht series). I say this based on the operating temps I have experienced.

For the people who think that just because you can activate the abs, that you are 1: pushing the brakes, and 2: generating enough brake torque. I suggest you tr braking latter, don't coast between gas and brake and apply the brakes harder, don't let up just because the abs activates and reduce the time between brake and gas. If you work on these things you will find that you can brake latter, you will generate a lot of heat in the brakes and reduce your lap times by seconds.

Lastly, if you are worried about spending an extra $50 or $100 on brake pads I think you have your priorities wrong. Brakes are one of the most important systems on your car. They can effect your lap times by seconds and they can determine wether or not your car goes home in one piece. I'm not saying spending more will always better or will produce better results, but brakes are just the last place you want to spend too little because it can cost you a lot more in the long run.

Razz1

I don't understand why you guys don't solve your problems.

R-4

http://porterfield-brakes.com/index.php

They work great!

tmak26b

i personally witnessed a set of portersfield destoryed by an intermediate level driver in an evo in one weekend, took out the rotors too. waste of money and time

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

Wankelbolt--think you misunderstood me Bro.
I probably didnt word it clearly though.
The HP + IS ok for the HPDE driver. A lot of the Ga guys used them for quite a while.
I should have been more clear in saying as the driver wants to go faster and use one of this car's strength better in a RACE then the hp+ pad is not a pad to use.
People that are racing they car dont have stock suspension or less than excellent tires.

You know how to take care of your brakes on the track dude--a lot dont
But the hp+ pad is ok for the hpde person. You drive want you have and have a hell of a lot of fun.

OD

dondo

iTrader: (7)

less , OD.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

its my birthday---so NO!
Cheers!

I did correct it though.

OD