panda

i have two sparco harnesses, and i am really wanting to install them in the 8,i was going to bolt them straight to the frame, i was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts/comments/sugesstions, on if im doing this wrong or if they have another idea etc......

thanks!

andrew

Jt-Imports

are we talking like a 4 point-5point?

If so I dont see any reason why you cant put them under the original spots on the floor for the original belts also. I did this in my FD, granted I dont play with RX8s much so I can say for sure, but its something to look into vise drilling or something like that.

JT

Sputnik

Where are you planning on mounting the shoulder harnesses?

---jps

VividRacing.com

In our experience with racing harness, we usually use Takata harnesses and they come with eye bolts to replace the stock seat bracket bolts and the harnesses hook into the eye bolts. The shoulder straps hook into the back seats. Here's some pics.



enjoy!

eccles

Please tell me I'm not seeing the shoulder belts anchored to the floor. Shoulder belts should never be mounted more than 45 degrees below the horizontal - any lower and they are more of a danger than a restraint in an accident.

panda

i am very confused in this subject.....i am planning on getting a shop to do them for me, i just kinda want to have a small idea of what im talking about to make sure they are doing the job right, i have never had harnesses in any of my cars before

but i understand you eccles when the shoulder strap need to be mounted 45 degrees below the horizontal, that seems logical

andrew,

Sputnik

Actually, the rule is that is should be 45 degrees or less from horizontal. You also need to mount the belts with grade 8 hardware to proper locations with appropriate backing plates.

---jps

wakeech

...so he's saying that to do it correctly, you're gonna have to muss-up your interior; SAFE racing harnesses are NOT just a cosmetic upgrade.

on that note, are you sure that you'd want to be driving in a car that doesn't have roll cage, as those 4 or 5 point harnesses are going to keep you pinned in your seat whether that's a good thing or not (as the roof come down around your head, literally)??

panda

i want the harnesses for added safety, the look is great as well but i think the added safety is a good idea.........
if they are attached to the seat mountings or the frame of the car, should they not be quite safe??, correct me if im wrong though


andrew

Sputnik

Using the stock mounts for the lap belts is the best idea, because they are already of a proper grade, and the chassis has the appropriate strength at those locations.

Where-ever you make new mounts, for the shoulder or anti-sub belts, you need to make sure that they are also supported properly, otherwise they will literally rip out at the worst time.

What Wakeech was referring to is if you have a set of harnesses properly mounted, your body is locked into the upright position. If the car rolls over and the roof caves in, the only flexible part of your body is your neck (because the rest of your body is locked in by the harness), and it will take the brunt of the impact. If you are wearing a stock seatbelt in the same situation, the stock seatlbelt will allow all of your body to shift and give under the impact, so your neck isn't taking as much of the force. This doesn't mean that you're guaranteed to walk away from such a roll, but there is a danger of hurting your neck much much worse with a harness.

The other reason why a roll-bar or roll-cage is a good idea with harnesses is that it makes a very good mounting point for a harness bar. A harness bar will run horizontally behind the front seats at a proper height for mounting shoulder belts, and at a proper strength. Like the harnesses, they have to be designed and installed properly too.

Another thing to consider about harnesses is that when they are adjusted properly, you are locked in that upright position, and you cannot lean forward to reach some of the controls. Things like turn signals and gear shifts are always within that close of a reach, but depending on the car, things like lights or fog-lights, mirrors, radio controls, climate controls, etc., might be out of reach. While this is not a safety issue, it is an annoyance. And some people tend to leave their harnesses slack enough that they can reach those things, which renders the harnesses less effective and maybe harmful. And don't forget, when you have harnesses adjusted properly, it is harder to check blind spots, and very difficult to turn to the rear when going in reverse.

---jps

panda

that is a lot to think about sputnik, thankyou......
i am going to get them installed, but i am thinking about getting the company to keep my seat belts in there for the time being, if they can, so that i can use the belts if they become an inconvience, i thought they would be safer but maybe they are not going to be?

what do yall think?? harnesses, safer or less safe than a converntional seatbelt?



andrew

VividRacing.com

Wow, had no idea I'd stirr up such a debate. As far as the location of the anchoring point, the pic may be a bit misleading. We removed the back seat to and mounted them with the supplied hardware inbetween the upper and lower sections of the back seat.




Check it out http://www.vividracing.com/main/8stage9.php

BTW, the mounting points are what is recomended in the instructions and this is how our track instructors mount them in thier streat/track cars. As long as your breaking the 45 deg plane your fine. We've raced with them and can stand behind Takata's product.
As for the saftey factor, seat belts are fine for day to day driving and do an adiquate job but are limited when it comes to performance and effeciency of protection. In fact, harnesses in most cases are even faster to get out of if an emergency because of the central locking cam.

eccles

I don't want to labour the point, but I feel I must reiterate the safety issue. The problem with mounting the shoulder straps too low has to do with simple geometry - the restraining force provided by the shoulder belts (which I'll call the "pull" for the sake of simplicity) comprises two vectors: horizontal and vertical.*

• The horizontal pull is what keeps your shoulders back in the seat - it's the pull you want. The further you mount the belts from the horizontal, the less pull they have in this direction.
• Conversely as the horizontal pull vector decreases, the vertical vector increases. This is pull you don't want, because it's directed downwards on your shoulders, with the possibility of spinal compression damage in an accident.

Now in a car such as the Evo, where the seats are designed with shoulder harness holes, it's possible that the seat may protect the wearer from the vertical pull of incorrectly-mounted shoulder straps, but it cannot undo the fact that the available pull in the direction you need it, has been greatly reduced.

I guess it's like the old saying "If you have a ten-dollar head, use a ten-dollar helmet." This is safety equipment and safety should be the primary concern at all times. Any time you compromise functionality for the sake of aesthetics, convenience, or ease of installation, you're making a potentially life-altering decision. In the end, it's your decision - I just ask that you be cogniscent of the potential repercussions.

(*)There's a third vector - lateral - which comes into play as you move the rear mounts away from a line directly dehind the driver, but I omitted it from this discussion for the sake of simplicity.

panda

well i will hopefully have them installled by friday/saturday....
so i will post pics etc.... when i am done.....


andrew

VividRacing.com

All I have to say is, they hold me in just fine. No saftey comprimised. If you've never sat in a harness fully straped in while being rocketed around the track then I could see how you would be skeptical.

eccles

And unless you've seen a race car after a major wreck, and seen how much the belts stretch and the mounting points deform, I can see how you would be skeptical.

I've been driving timed laps and wheel-to-wheel racing since I bought my first RX-3 back in the late 80's, and all my race cars had full 5-point harnesses, so I'm quite familiar with their comfort and usage.

I was also a scrutineer (technical and safety inspector) for the Confederation of Australian Motor Sport for several years, so I'm also quite familiar with their need for proper mounting.

There's a world of difference between being held into your seat at loads of less than 1G, and being kept in that seat when you encounter the 20-40G decelleration of even a minor accident. (Crash recorders in INDY cars have seen over 100 G's.)

I don't want to turn this into a dick-sizing contest, but I do know what I'm talking about. A car with belts mounted below 45° would not have been allowed on the track on my beat.

PUR NRG

The point of a four- or five-point harness is to keep you secure in the seat during an accident. Saying the mounting points you have keep you secure while driving has nothing to do with whether they'll keep you secure during a crash.

SCCA recently had an in-depth article regarding this issue and their conclusion is the shoulder belt should not be steeper than a 45 degree angle from the horizontal plane. You can also see this link for rules from other sanctioning bodies.
________
CHRISTIANITY DICUSSION

eccles

Of course, the very fact that this thread is in the "Appearance/Body Kits" forum supports the contention that most folks who install harnesses see them primarily as a cosmetic upgrade and are more concerned with form than function.

winbluerx8sport

Is there anyway to put in harness and save teh backseats? (thinking maybe baby seat mounts in back? (NO?) Any ideas i MSUT have harnesses with new seats... i slide too easily

AlexCisneros

I have the SPARCO 3" 4pt harness in my car. The shoulder belts are clipped into the child safety system at the back of the seat (<= 45°) The lap belt is clipped to the factory seat mounting bolts on the floor. The bolts had eye bolts welded on to them.

I do not recommend this set up for road racing (nor any 4pt belt, they can allow you to submarine). This set up is used for AutoX (lower speed, not an excuse but they really hold you in ).

Pictures on request

winbluerx8sport

it would be for Autocross THANKS ALOT! got pics!?

AlexCisneros

I snap some tomorrow and post them

winbluerx8sport

Thanks

AlexCisneros

ok, here are the pix...

First one shows the install using the child latch system

Second is a close up

Third shows the angle relative to the seat back

Fourth is a crappy close up of the left side bolt. This one holds the "seat belt rail" in place.

Fifth is a close up of the right side bolt that holds the seat down.

Both are covered by plastic

AlexCisneros

Last one shows the view from the front.


I'm too lazy to remove the belts and put them on between autoX's (even though I can) so I just swing them over and put the pads on the back side :D






•REMEMBER•
Under no circumstances should this set up be used on the street. A 4pt belt can allow you to submarine, and even though it may (or may not) be safer than the OEM 3pt belt, Insurance companies may decline you if you are not wearing OEM belts.