dieselsdad

Im looking for someone who can do a full cage in my RX-8. This will need to be a cage similar to the T3 cars as the car currently has a full interior and will for some time longer. Car will be a HPDE car for now and eventually become fulltime racecar. I am located in Arkansas but could travel to surrounding states for the work. I would like to see someone who has a website to provide pictures of their work in cars like mine.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Michael

SouthFL

If you don't mind a 13hr drive, consult with Kirk Racing.

http://www.kirkracing.com/

expo1

Or you can buy a full cage from Autopower and use a local welder to do the install.

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

I'm going to get on my soap box again and suggest you don't put in a full cage if this car is going to be used on the street. Any accident will put your head in contact with the cage. The bar padding, that is sold and required by the sanctioning bodies, isn't enough to protect your skull. You should only drive a car with a cage if you are also wearing a helmet and a 5/6 point harness.

Also, the cage will interfere with the operation of your airbags.

VS8

iTrader: (4)

Senna

AWR/Racing Cages have done the Rx8 safety car cages here in Cali. It's a nice clean setup.

http://www.racecages.com/category/products/rx-8/

They used to have a bunch of pics of the cage but I can't seem to find them on their site anymore.

dieselsdad

I agree with the fullcage on the street idea.

I'm trying to make plans NOW for when the car gets slated to FULL RACE status at the end of 09.

I'm familiar with Kirk but they're a little further than I like. The autopower is not to my liking.

I'm looking for something similar to what's being run in Touring 3 cars or even the ST cars. I have biult my own cages for an ITA car but no longer have the time and don't really have the inclination either. Besides, those other guys are REALLY good. Now if I can just find one in Ar, Tx, Ok, Ms, La, Tn, Mo. etc...

Thanks,
Michael

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

WOW, that is bad. At best that is a "style bar," no way that would meet even the weakest of bar standards for any club.

Miatacage.com has done some custom RX-8 cages, but they are in Oregon. You can't go wrong with Autopower, but they are in Socal. Kirk is in Alabama, and they have some nice products, we just ordered one from them.

EricMeyer

I believe your real issue is this: You want a cage that will allow for an interior and then at some time in the future you'd like to transition the car to a race car. Here's the deal (and most people don't know this as evidenced is SOME of the responses in this thread---SOME PEOPLE, not ALL):

A cage for a car with an interior is made totally different than one designed for a race car. Totally different. You could put cage in which allows for an interior (which I have owned) and it's sexy and cool but it has manymore limitations that WHEN you decide you want to go club racing you will hate. HATE. One smart cookie offered a lack of headroom. He's right on the money. If you're taller than 5'9", I'll suggest to you that you can plan on hitting your helmet against your cool cage. Additionally, seat placement is a freakin' bear. BEAR. If you've never been involved with something that sounds so simple as a seat placement, I'll suggest to you that it's a much bigger deal. We typically pound the stuffing out of the driver's side of the trans tunnel to fit a seat slider and large seat into our RX8's.

The decision is a tough one. If you've got the dough and want to do it properly, plan on building two cages. There will be ZERO commonality with these two cages if done properly. Zero.

Smart people will go to the NASA or SCCA club racing rules (which your cage should be built to or you'll have spent a lot of money on something that will not pass tech). I see this all the time---some guy who knows how to weld makes what he thinks is a cool cage, takes it to the track and the tech officials tell him to go home, read the rules and fix 8 things that are blatantly wrong. It happens all the time. Let the cage buyer beware is an appropriate phrase for this effort.

So this probably makes sense thus far but those not in the know are probably asking "what's the difference with the cages? Aren't all cages equal?". No they are not. More variety than a Baskin-Robbins ice cream store.

See this: http://www.vividracing.com/forums/ga...3/996cage2.jpg

(apologies to vivid or whoever makes it for them). Here is an example of a really cool cage. I just googled "RX8 and Roll Cage" and theirs popped up. Notice it's for a Porsche. Nothing against them, it's the concept we are talking about which addresses your initial question--one street cage and then one race cage.

You'll see that this really cool powder coated cage is a bolt in model. It's attractive, sexy and has a place to attach some really cool seat belts. Wow! You're in. Instant chick magnet. The guys in NASA or your local Open-Track event will give it a big thumbs up---most of these guys do not perform tech inspection as thier full time gig nor do they build cages for a living. You car will be fine for these events and you'll tell all your friends that it's faster etc., etc. God forbid you get in a big crash because this bolt in rear hoop will do very little for your protection. It may help a little but it will be far, far from the protection of a race cage. Far, far.

Now let's fast forward. Just forward in time to your requirement of building a race cage. Please refer to the following link:

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/ccr.pdf

Please see page 60 and then page 65 for a cage illustration.

I'll point out a few differences that are usually hard to see for the first time cage buyer/customer/user. Congrats---you're normal. I've been involved with a half dozen cage designs in various cars I've owned including two "street cages" using the same logic that you're using. I wish someone would have pointed these things our prior to starting my projects. I guess you could call this post a "don't do what I did" novel.

You'll see in the yellow cage that the harness bar does not intersect with the diagonal bar shown in the NASA rules. The rear diagonal bars in this are wimpy and barely support the main hoop---its as if the main hoop is suspended in space. A more robust cage would have diagonals attached to the top corners of the main hoop and extend furthur rearward. They may also have a rear diagonal that goes from the upper left side of the main hoop (near the driver's head) to the right rear of the car. Most race cages have this if you do some more detailed observing.

Now on to the obvious stuff---the entire front 1/2 of the roll cage. Keep in mind that a rear bolt in cage is about as wide as your installed interior allows. Now you strip the interior and there is this HUGE gap between your bars and the cars exterior. Smart cage builders butt up thier bars to the actual body and then attach these bars to the body via a series of welds---increasing the overall rigidity of the car. Look again at other race cars up close and you'll see this. SpeedSource does this with thier "A" pillar bars with a larger drilled out gusset. If you put a cage in with your interior (like a T3 cage) once you remove your interior there will be a HUGE gap there and are you ready for this----it will make a huge, wide, visual block. You'll have to move your head to avoid this blindspot IN FRONT of you. It becomes harder to see certain curbing and makes it harder to hit your turn-in marks. The biggest deal with the rx8 street cage IMO is it's comfort. Hitting your head on your new custom cage sucks big time. If you run door panels in your street car, the required NASCAR door bars will have to be comprimised big time. So you'll have to re-do all of these too.

My advice: Look for closely at a GOOD race cage and see where it is attached. See how close these bars are to the metal body. Look closely where the bars all intersect with each other---ideally bars intersect at the same location as these aids in increased strength. Safety is #1. Most HPDE guys don't know this until they go off at a buck 10 into a tire wall (which rarely happens). Race car guys are more apt to have experienced an accident or know someone who experienced an accident----HPDE guys, rarely. Once you get in an big accident, you'll rethink just how robust your cage is and who built it.

You have a tough decision to make (and your not the first to make or consider this choice). If you've got the dough----do it. Your rear seat will be good for a helmet or a briefcase but that's about it. It's a hard decision.

Ready to build a cage? Do some research and find out ANY good shop in your area that builds or services race cars. Go and visit them. Ask them for a tour of their cages. Some of these shops don't do this work but know someone who does. Find your local NASA or SCCA tech inspector and ask for some references. He/she knows who does a good job and who doesn't pass tech (the 2nd or 3rd time).

I hope this helps. email with more specific quesitons and as always----don't contribute to this post unless you have something of value to offer and the facts to back it up. Too many wannabe's think they know what their talking about.

As a very good friend with twenty odd years of NASCAR and Winston cup cage building reminds me: "Safety is always #1".

Happy rotoring.

Eric
meyermotorsports@mac.com

RK

iTrader: (1)

Just to reiterate this point my friend raced in NASA for the first time this year from SCCA. He went to a professional cage builder in Ohio who was well versed in rules for SCCA and NASA but my friend failed to double check the rules with the work himself.

When he arrived at Mid-Ohio he failed tech due to missing a single cross support bar. We spent the entire night working to find someone to do a weld locally and ended up driving almost an hour to get it done. Had he not gotten down to MidOhio early, had he not had me to help, and had he not lucked into finding someone at the track willing to spend his Friday night welding he would have failed to run and would have failed to qualify for nationals (which he didn't go to anyway).

So even when you get someone who's done bars before you still need to verify the work with the newest rules for that particular racing club.

dieselsdad

Eric, Thank you as always. You have lots of good advice. You're right about the issues with a cage in a car with a full interior. I hadn't thought about that. I am still in the planning stages for this car in 2010. Next year it will run all of the HPDE's before becoming a fulltime racer. That's why I'm trying to find someone now who can do good work, many times those who are GOOD have a backlog.

I have other street cars so I suppose this one's interior will be fully sacrificed in the name of a good, safe cage.

Eric has good pictures on his site of cages but I would like to see others for comparisons sake. Does anyone have any good, DETAILED shots of other ST RX-8 cages?

StealthTL

iTrader: (1)

Was specifically asked by my insurance agent about a cage - seems my company won't insure any car with.

Just a heads-up.....

S

Senna

For reference purposes to others who might search this subject down the road. I addressed the roll cage issue with someone at Mazdaspeed Motorsports Development several months ago and he recommended a custom built set up and on the West Coast 7s as good resource.

http://www.sevensonly.com/

EricMeyer

The NASA guy tech (small world) for Mid-O is shane benson. This name may be familiar to some of you as he is the owner of AIM TUNING and THE POWER STATION----a Mazda based tuning shop! For those of you reading this and planning to do your own efforts, you may be interested to know that the #1 error Shane sees (I talk to him all the time about this) is lack of a 360 degree weld. So......check your welds closely.

Note #2: We carry a portable welder in our rig and often help people out in these situations for free (or beer money).

To reiterate, I'm not against street car cages, however if you want to transition these cages to a race cage, you run into some challenges (which I beleive was the original thrust of this thread).

Happy rotoring

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

eric is The Man--and a hell of a nice guy that is passionate about what he does (so well-I may add) and recently spent over 2 hrs with us Ga Rx8 club members at Road Atlanta. Every one listen to what he says--he knows and does his best to help.
As an experience trauma specialist working in a level one trauma facility--safety should be #1 always.
no cages in a street car PLEASE--for all the reasons mentioned PLUS the false sense of security a "cage" seems to give the inexperienced driver. Also PLEASE no 4 point/6 point belts WITHOUT a cage--on a rollover you want to be able to lie down --i have seen it happen and it aint pretty.
also remember hpde is EDUCATION--no tropies--no lap times--keep it that way. use it to learn what it is intended for.
Like Eric says also--over a buck ten and the world starts changing--over a buck 25 and the world changes again and so forth. Us Ga boys have made an informal pact to slow down a little (one member lost the TTD champonship by 3/4's of a sec against a fully prepped M3 with proper cage and all the goodies. Since our lap times have dropped a lot of the 3 yrs we have been running we have come to realize we are pushing things to much in regard to our oem safety equipment.
Heed Eric's advice--best you can get
olddragger

BERG

As some one that has built a lot of cages many of them RX8s including one of Eric's cars, I'll second the notion that full interior cages have many compromises compared to a cage built without. With a cage that needs to include a headliner or even some of the bolt in bars the distance between the roof and the bar is large enough to do significant damage to the car and sometimes the occupants in the event of a crash. In the end it is also just a big old pain in the ***! When I drive a non-caged RX8 I marvel at how easy it is to get in and out. But when you are ready and if you want to come to NY I'd be happy to set you up with whatever you like.
More pics here http://s254.photobucket.com/albums/hh115/BERG_Racing/

Senna

Does a full race cage (non-interior) simplify installing a race seat vs a "street cage" setup. Is that Recaro seat/bracket a plug and play system or did the bracket have to be fab'd etc.?

Thanks.

swoope

iTrader: (5)

wow,

more great info.

btw, send me a pm.. i might have to supply the beer after the koni race..



beers

EricMeyer

Good call John.

Guys, take a look at the link to John's pictures and I'll point out a few things that upon first glance, some people might miss. Good stuff.

1. See how the Main Hoop is tack welded to the roof? Also, see the small gusset connecting just over the driver's left side of his head to the roof structure? This would be rather challenging with an interior: http://s254.photobucket.com/albums/h...namPark008.jpg

2. Rigidity. For those of you that may not know, TRIANGULAR structures are generally accepted as the more stronger designs. Most all top-notch cars will contain several triangular structures. Notice how just about every bar intersects with other bars at the same junction/location. I'm no engineer but my good friend Pete Gebhardt has been building cages for Winston Cup and NASCAR for 20 odd years and this is the rationale that they use. Pete now works for the dragster great John Force Racing---building cars no less. RX8 triangluar picture below.

http://s254.photobucket.com/albums/h...rogress014.jpg

3. Door bars that locate INSIDE of the door well---not possible with door panels intact. Key safety point: It is generally accepted that these door bars (sometimes called NASCAR bars when they run in parallel) are designed AWAY from the driver and act like a crumple zone of sorts. You want the driver's side AWAY from the driver so that impact does not pin the driver. On the new Cars Of Tomorrow, these bars are staggered with the top bar farther out than the next one below---again, a "staged" crumple zone concept:
http://s254.photobucket.com/albums/h...hwelded008.jpg

4. Tons of Rigidity. This is a great example of a cage that has much more rear reinforcement than a typical cage. More time, effort and cost to the customer but safer---you get what you pay for. You don't see this in a bolt-in cage. Buy your cage fabricator a six pack for having to crawl/weave/slither in some very tight spaces. The RX8 does not have a solid "B" pillar. This is the area behind the front door and in front of the rear side window. Naturally we have our rear doors there in lieu of a B pillar. In presenting cage designs to Grand-Am, the main thing they were looking for with the RX8 was a very reinforced Main Hoop. This is because the length of our interior is so long and we don't have a B Pillar. Grand-Am wants safety. John has done an excellent job at supporting his main hoop from moving forward or rearward in an accident:

http://s254.photobucket.com/albums/h...hwelded003.jpg

5. Offset seat. See how the seat is located close to the trans tunnel. You'll need to figure out how to leave some space to attach mounting points for both the lap belts and the crotch strap belt. Most fabricators make their own seat mounts. Very few in my experience use the STOCK seat mounts (perhaps because I'm a big lug and HAVE to move the seat). Moving the seat allows you to put the seat where you want it. I'm 6'1" and NEED the seat farther away from the left side bar near the left side of my big headed helmet----offsetting the seat (which you can still easily center to the steering wheel). Leaving the seat in/near it's original location has my head touching this left side upper roll bar with my helmet---not smart safety in an accident. Taller drivers in a stock car (you'll recall) desire the seat LOWER for more headroom. Moving the seat allows for this. Also, it is generally accepted in racing that you want the seat as low as possible---for a lower center of gravity (cg), and you can also "feel" the car better. Most fabricator will buy a racing seat side mounts and modify them.

http://s254.photobucket.com/albums/h...namPark007.jpg

Additional note: We have put the XL or larger seats with Head restraints or wings in our cars without a problem---because we've relocated the seat and seat mounts AND it's on a slider to accomdate varied driver heights. Little E, one of our crew is about 5'5" and he can drive the car/reach the pedals because the slider has a good range of operation. Note: sliders generally have a small added height requirement when compared to FIXED seat mounts when can be located lower. These sliders are also often purchased from a race seat manufacturer as they match the seat mounts and the seat. Some people use a univeral seat mount and modify it. YOU CAN PLAN TO SPEND A FAIR AMOUNT TO FIT A SEAT. THIS IS NOT A BOLT-IN THANK YOU VERY MUCH PROJECT. You can do it cheap but safety is #1. Ours don't move except for sliding and I suspect John's does as well. I have seen some seats with a 2x4 underneath as a prop. No kidding.

6. Dash bar. Most fabricators yank the windshield glass to make it easier to get in there to weld. Remember---NASA/SCCA require welds that are 360 degrees around tubing. I've seen some DIY welders skip this and when this is found, the car doesn't pass tech and will require fixing before hitting the track. For a customer who buys this and doesn't know to check it----this is a total buzz kill. Notice the dash is gone---harder to do if you want to keep your interior---doable but harder. Note: Most race cars have the heater core removed and therefore have no heat or defroster. This makes it tough in the Northern states in the spring and fall and during rain. Something to consider. ZERO hard core race cars have heaters. A dash bar is required in Club and Pro Racing (an absolute no brainer). Most all sanctioning bodies require a right side net and most cars have this attached to the dash bar. Read the rules and PLAN YOUR BUILD to the UPCOMING rules or you'll end up redoing your project. You can also see the aluminum seat brackets on the driver side. Which brings me to another comment----I would say that 95%+ race cars have only one seat. Perhaps higher.

http://s254.photobucket.com/albums/h...rogress004.jpg

Additional notes not seen in these photos:

-Just about every RWD race car needs weight on the RIGHT side and TO THE REAR of the car to help achieve better balance and weight distribution. Most all RWD cars can't have enough weight in the rear (but you don't want to add weight----you want to RELOCATE it). Think of a big V8 mustang---lots of weight up from with the engine as an example. This is why you see ballast down low in the passengers seat area in some cars. Spec Miata's for example. Watch your rules as some rulesets dictate where your ballast can be located.
-Some fabricators will use a thicker wall tubing (heavier but still legal) on the right side of the car.
-Plan to locate your fire bottle system on the right side, the radio, cool suit or whatever extra stuff you want. Put the battery in the right rear of your trunk if your rules allow this----Koni Challenge rules require you to run the battery in it's stock location---I wish we could move it but we can't.
-Save money and gut your own interior. This is fun and takes a good day with a buddy for the first timer. DON'T gut the wiring harness. You'll be sorry. Note: The SpeedSource ST Koni cars carry a stock wiring harness.
-Most importantly---do yourself a favor and do extensive homework with rulesets PRIOR to having a cage built. Just because you give your money to a welder/fabricator doesn't mean that you're car will be safe and legal. Discount cages = discount results. It is generally accepted that the higher the sanctioning body you build your cage to, the more legal it is. The SCCA rule set (and it's 52 million pages) is generally accepted as a very acceptable rule set to build to.
-Timing: Don't expect your fabricator to build your cage two weeks before the first event of the season. EVERYONE waits untill the last minute and it ain't gonna happen kids. Most of these guys are slow in Dec/Jan and some of Feb---a perfect time to get your project completed. Only idiots wait until the last minute with car preparation. Pro teams complete an event, get back to the shop and start wrenching asap.

It is my hope that this helps shed light on a subject that is rarely talked about and has low market education.

Happy Rotoring

PedalFaster

Eric, just wanted to add my thanks to the others' -- your posts here have been extremely helpful and informative.

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

Also, check the quality of the welds. When I first started racing, my car didn't pass it's 3rd tech inspection. The first 2 inspectors passed the car with bad welds.
I was running in SCCA ITS. The Autopower cage was installed by a company that fabricating cages was their business. The rules, at that time, required that most of the interior be intact. The welders were afraid of burning/melting the interior pieces and didn't use enough heat on the welds.

BERG

BTW I gave a good friend of mine a minor concussion when we went for a test ride in a Pontiac that I had just finished a cage in. Exiting the parking lot I kicked it out just a bit and when it caught his dome hit the side bar. He was seeing stars for a while. Go ahead and bolt in a cool looking bar for the street (behind the seats). When you get serious and the car is a track toy only do the cage.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

were is the node for the rx8--anyone run a bar up the console?
Some beautiful work guys---!
OD

dieselsdad

Keep the info coming. It IS helping.

And just to set the record straight. THIS CAGE WILL BE FOR A RACECAR, not a street car.

I had thought it would be simpler to leave the majority of the interior in and do a Touring 3 style cage but you have all brought some good points to the table. The cage would be stronger and neater if done properly with a clean interior.

Lots of great places to do the work but so far nothing remotely close to Arkansas.

What else have you guys got?

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

Damn good info on this thread and a lot of people dont even know it--not you diesalsdad(by the way my Dad was a diesel mechanic--diesel tool size/pressures are impressive!!!
olddragger