eccles

Ok, let's jump ahead to next year's Nationals. Assume several RX-8's are running, and some of them have gotten themselves into trophy positions. Another competitor, who finds himself just out of the trophies, has heard of the various non-factory ECU reflashes and piggyback ECU modules that are available, and suspects that at least some of the 8's ahead of him have such things fitted.

Assuming he decided to protest them, how would he prove his point? If an OBDII tool would identify such a thing, is hooking one up to a competitor's car in impound allowed, or would he have to put down his protest fee just on a hunch and risk being thought of as a sore loser?

tpryor

This came up a few years ago at Nationals. They tried to regulate any ECU changes by looking at the manufacturer supplied cheksum for the loaded software. As a test, they took several cars (with permission) and found that NONE of them matched! After checking with the manufacturer, what they found was that, due to CONSTANT updates to the programs, the checksums constantly varied from the "supplied" checksum, as THAT number was only a snapshot in time of the production life of the code. They gave up, and said it could not be regulated without hugely expensive equipment that they were not prepared to buy, and with the equipment they had it could not be detected with certainty.

To specifically answer the questions, only trophied cars (to a certain placing) can be checked at impound, and then only by event officials AND a notification at the start of the event that a certain number of cars will be checked. A competitor is NOT allowed to touch any part of another competitors car, EVER, so he would have to lodge his protest money (and the bond money), and take his chances.

If it was only ECU, my money says he gets away with it..........

Len

That reminds me of what happened with traction control in Formula One. When it was forbidden, there were accusations of cheating that couldn't be proven or disproven because the FIA couldn't be certain what the software was doing. So they gave up trying to figure it out and let the teams use traction control.

If the FIA doesn't have the wherewithal to regulate ECUs, who does?

Chuck Clifford

You would think that if it was an ECU flash that is not associated with any piece of new hardware, that it would be considered timing or tuning the stock hardware, and be allowed.

eccles

That's exactly the sort of modification that is not allowed. Solo II Rule 13.9.D specifically statesBut as other folks have said, unless the modification uses a piggyback ECU or something else that can be physically detected, it's unlikely to be protestable. Which implies that some sort of ECU reflash is going to become de rigeur for anyone wanting to be nationally competitive in an RX-8.

tpryor

:D :D :D :D

O.R.A.

Here is my idea of how you could detect any performance enhancements out of an ECU:

1) You get a good logger that can read and record the OBD codes and sensors.

2) You run it on a "control" vehicle.

3) You run it on the "suspected" vehicle.

This would have to be tested first to see how much variation there could be, but I think that factory maps for ignition and timing can only move a certain amount. For example, there is an ignition advance ceiling and anything above that would have to be due to a reflash.

This is what the WRX guys were planning on doing to each other to verify that, not only the peak boost was stock, but also the boost curve.

Hey, you could have a Mazda dealer guy flash ALL ECU's at an event prior to the event. That way everyone has the same program.

SA22C

Honestly, there are competative RX-8's in BS already, without ECU flashes. I wouldn't worry about it one way or the other. If it were me, I'd run in the Super Stock category. More mods are allowed. (Note: thats Western Canadian Motorsports Association rules, I don't know the SCCA rules)

Ike

Considering there are people getting 50+ hp from reflashes on various cars, do you still think it should be allowed in a stock class?

Chuck Clifford

From reading the WRX and Evo forums, I don't think that any of these cars are running without some sort of ECU reflash. Are they all detected? Are they all declared? It appears that the winner in the WRX and Evo (and many other Electronically tuned cars, eventually RX-8) industries, are the aftermarket people. If its illegal, than everybody is cheating in one way or another. I for one am not going to get caught up in it. It eventually gets to the point that the initial toy is 30,000 and all the add ons are 20,000 more.

My whole point was I did not think software alone should be illegal, since there are no standard methods to detect it, and some people don't even know what revision they are driving, and you are only getting the most out of your stock hardware with it.

RX-8 owners have gone in for their first oil change and had reflashes accomplished while they were there. Some companies pay millions of dollars a year for software configuration control. No weekend sport (drag strip, autox) is going to get a handle on it, and still keep the cost and hassles affordable.

I think the RX-8 is quite adequate stock for my purposes. If Mazda slips an ECU burn in during one of my free servicings, than I'll get an update, but keeping up with the Jones'es aint my bag.

AlexCisneros

ok, on a WRX, EVO, STI you are dealing with turbo cars... ECU flashes usually alter the boost levels which is how they are able to make an additional 40-60HP. I've personally never seen a NA car with an ECU flash pick up more than 5-10HP without severe modifications...

IMHO worry about driving your best and leave the cheaters alone... If they can only win by giving themselaves 10 more HP it speaks wonders of your driving skills compared to theirs...

Ike

Overall I don't think it's much a problem at autox. It's prettymuch gentlemans honor, and overall I think it's followed. Yes there are a ton of WRX's and turbo cars in general with reflashes and ECU mods but it would be tough for most of te WRX guys I know that autox.

1.) Ride alongs are very common place and simply looking at the boost guage and the feel of the car would clue you in.

2.) There are only a couple companies doing reflashes, at least for the WRX... It would be really simple to find out if someone you autox with has purchased a reflash.

The only people I could see doing it are less acomplished drivers that haven't been a part of the community for very long. If one of the top drivers is using a reflash it would become very obvious very fast, at least for a WRX and most boosted cars where the performace gains can be quite high. With an N/A car, and a car that's newer such as the RX-8 it will be a little trickier to spot it, but right now there's nothing to worry about since there is no reflash available.

Ike

eccles

True, but at national level, positions can be decided by mere thousandths of a second - in Super Stock this year, first to third were separated by a mere 0.014 seconds. Over two 60-second courses, a 5-10HP difference could easily mean twice that. At the pointy end of the field, taking the high moral ground may mean the difference between hero and zero.

Dr. Lightspeed

A properly tuned car can see 25 plus hsp with no external mods and that would make a differance.

Dr. Lightspeed

Having been in competitive auto racing scene for years. It may be a gentlemans game but I will say this. There are two types of competitors Loosers and Cheaters. Yea I am shure I will get flamed for this but it is the truth. Yea autoX says you need to declare an alluminum flywheel also but many are not declared.

Yes by the way the vin number is also used in calculating the checksum so that is not gonna be able to be used. The internal identification numbers can be used in the reflash of the program so that is not gonna be able to be used. A dealer is not going to be able to reflash an ecu that has the latest update from Mazda it is not allowed by the software.

O.R.A.

I know of WRX ECU reflashes that don't touch boost and still get 20-25hp improvements. The biggest benefit might not be at the peak, but the improvement over the area of the curve is tremendous.

As for the RX-8, look at canzoomer. Just messing with fueling he is getting at least 20hp out of the RX-8. That is huge.

The only way to detect will be monitoring the sensors. OBD-2 readers will give you timing advance, fuel trim values, etc. and you can compare a control car against a suspected car.

Dr. Lightspeed

Yes and No The advance curve is generated based on load. So sitting in someone's car watching the sensor values will tell you nothing. You would have to be making thatt car perform inorder to tell this. There is no advantage in advancing the timing at idle.

O.R.A.

Of course. That is what I suggested on my first post.

Another idea is to have a rule that states that the event organizers reserve the right to put all the ECU's of the same model cars into a pool and re-destribute them for the duration of the event.

Dr. Lightspeed

Can't do it the immobolizer will disable the car. Why worry about it mod your car then you will be on a level playing field or at least on the top of it at anyrate.

Ike

Who is making this reflash that doesn't touch boost? Because I sure don't know of one.

O.R.A.

Vishnu will do it for you if you want to.

O.R.A.

It is not OK to cheat just because others do it.

Ike

I suppose they have some maps that they don't commonly use, so I could see that.

O.R.A.

Yeah, they've done custom maps for customers that wanted to stay STX legal.

rotarygod

Just learn to be a much better driver! :D

When I autocrossed in my RX-7 years ago I did it for the fun of it. At the time I didn't know what the rules were. I just wanted to go out and have fun. I was told that my car could be in a certain class so I entered it there. I didn't know until much later that I wasn't even in the right class. Aluminum flywheel, headers, no cat, intake, swaybars, struts, springs and I still got to run with others who had nothing and I had an oil leak. That was a tech inspectors fault. Like I said this was before I knew anything about the sport and wasn't there to compete anyways, just have fun. I didn't run the fastest out of my class but I was easily in the top percentage. I just wasn't the best driver out there. If I run now I'll just enter in class X. I don't care about competition or standings. I just want to have fun. My friend is more concerned with the damn rules and won't touch his car so he can stay in the same class. He might not even enter a race more than once a year.