CS / BS solo recipes?
Water Foul
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,521
Likes: 266
From: Republic of Texas
Koni Shock - Sport Series MAZDA RX-8 2003 - 2008 8240-1227SPORT
Actually I bought my Koni's from THmotorsports for the best price and free delivery. Shopped a dozen places once I had a part number and made up my mind which way I wanted to go.
Tirerack is just a good quick fitment place but more expensive than any number of vendors. The Koni's were the same price as OEM Tokico shocks from Mazdaspeed using the racer's discount. The only other choice from Mazdaspeed was a bilstein coilover set for $1500 but that's STX territory not legal for stock.
Mazdatrix and others have Tokico HD Mazdaspeeds backordered. No help. Tokico D-Specs have rear adjustments (extenders) if you feel the need they are the only game in town that I found? Lots of people like them.
Maybe you'll luck out and find a good used set from a wrecked car or someone who's changed classes?
Decisions, decisions. It's a tough call.
Personally I'm blown away how much superior the Koni's are to the stock sport Tokico's on my 2004.
Actually I bought my Koni's from THmotorsports for the best price and free delivery. Shopped a dozen places once I had a part number and made up my mind which way I wanted to go.
Tirerack is just a good quick fitment place but more expensive than any number of vendors. The Koni's were the same price as OEM Tokico shocks from Mazdaspeed using the racer's discount. The only other choice from Mazdaspeed was a bilstein coilover set for $1500 but that's STX territory not legal for stock.
Mazdatrix and others have Tokico HD Mazdaspeeds backordered. No help. Tokico D-Specs have rear adjustments (extenders) if you feel the need they are the only game in town that I found? Lots of people like them.
Maybe you'll luck out and find a good used set from a wrecked car or someone who's changed classes?
Decisions, decisions. It's a tough call.
Personally I'm blown away how much superior the Koni's are to the stock sport Tokico's on my 2004.
Yes only do one thing at a time and evaluate. It may take you along time to get all the speed/handling available just out of the new dampers, alignments, tires and air pressures. Spend extra money on seat time going to events and having fun taking on more experienced drivers @ bigger events.
Registered
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 302
Likes: 0
From: Seattle, WA
Registered
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 84
Likes: 1
From: Long Island
Not being a fan of over rebounding a car. I can see a large front bar with DA rear shocks being a better a setup than 4 Koni singles. Penske 7500DA's would work well as long as you can invert them for stock class. Compression adjustment would work to dial out some of the oversteer experienced with increasing front roll stiffness.
Is that what you have experienced when you increase FRONT roll stiffness? That's counter what typical wisdom states, but I know that there are many variables and I wonder if there are other things that are affecting oversteer.
Thanks
Registered
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 84
Likes: 1
From: Long Island
Tuning compression and potentially bump stops in the rear can allow for additional front roll stiffness and/or compression over the norm. It may or may not be necessary but I've always found a more responsive car easier to drive fast.
Last edited by JeffH; Nov 26, 2013 at 10:05 PM.
I was always able to beat the local guys in the BRZ twins when they had stock rims on street tires but since I learned there is a set of front camber bolts available from the factory giving them -1.2 camber all around I find them much harder to beat. I didn't think those were legal in street stock. But I guess the term "crash bolts" goes along way?
There are only two adjustable shocks I could find Koni's and Tokico D-spec. The others were all more expensive and not adjustable. No one ever faulted a Bilstein? Tons of coil overs available for the track or STX cars tho'.
For 2014 I plan on wearing out my R1R's which seem to wear quite well. But I don't leave my State anymore. It's all for bragging rights down here in FL. I can still drive with the best of them. Nationals is a whole different universe in preparation. $$ Best to be a co-driver in a great prepared car.
Registered
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
From: Akron, OH
Wheels and tires are here.
245/40R17 ZII's on 17x8 +45 Kosei K1 TS
BTW, if anyone is looking for cheap 17x8's these wheels are on a 40% off closeout sale on Tire Rack, which is why I bought mine in the middle of winter. They only have a few sets left though...
245/40R17 ZII's on 17x8 +45 Kosei K1 TS
BTW, if anyone is looking for cheap 17x8's these wheels are on a 40% off closeout sale on Tire Rack, which is why I bought mine in the middle of winter. They only have a few sets left though...
Water Foul
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,521
Likes: 266
From: Republic of Texas
Well, I've gone an done it now. Instead of going with Koni Sports, I let someone convince me I can be competitive in STX, so I have a set of PSS9 coilovers coming. My second set of tires will be illegal next year (180TW), so I am going to wear them out at the track and AutoX this year, whether perfect for the task or not, then go lighter and wider next year.
So long, CS!
So long, CS!
Registered
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Registered
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
From: San Diego, CA
Alignment setting for CS
Hello Mark,
I am going to try and replicate your setup from below - running CS. (I also have the Koni single adjustable and the Hotchkis bar). After your suggestion (on the other thread) - I currently have the following:
Front Camber - 1.3; Rear camber - 1.6; Front Toe - 1/8'' Toe Out; Rear Toe - 1/16'' Toe In; Rear suspensions: 50%, Front - Full Soft
* I asked my current alignment shop a few times about trying to get more front camber. They are not able to get beyond -1.3. Is there a specific set of instructions you can help with - which I can try and convey to the alignment guys to try and achieve?
* I currently run with a 2 PSI difference (BFG Rivals) from front-rear and this results in pretty neutral-under steer response. Is this similar in your setup too? Or does the -1.1 camber make it more tail happy?
Can you please share your current alignment setting, tire and your comments on how your car handles? Would be great for noobs like me to understand stuff better.
Thanks,
Arvind
I am going to try and replicate your setup from below - running CS. (I also have the Koni single adjustable and the Hotchkis bar). After your suggestion (on the other thread) - I currently have the following:
Front Camber - 1.3; Rear camber - 1.6; Front Toe - 1/8'' Toe Out; Rear Toe - 1/16'' Toe In; Rear suspensions: 50%, Front - Full Soft
* I asked my current alignment shop a few times about trying to get more front camber. They are not able to get beyond -1.3. Is there a specific set of instructions you can help with - which I can try and convey to the alignment guys to try and achieve?
* I currently run with a 2 PSI difference (BFG Rivals) from front-rear and this results in pretty neutral-under steer response. Is this similar in your setup too? Or does the -1.1 camber make it more tail happy?
Can you please share your current alignment setting, tire and your comments on how your car handles? Would be great for noobs like me to understand stuff better.
Thanks,
Arvind
Howdy,
So, ran the car today in the form I'll take it to Nationals, except that I still need to swap out the SS brake lines for stock.
Basic setup was:
Front: -1.6 deg, 0.1 deg toe out. ~ 7 deg caster (not entirely sure this was remeasured after the camber was adjusted, but also not sure if that matters). Hotchkis MX-5 adjustable front bar. Koni Sports
Rear: -1.1 deg, 0 toe, koni sports @ ~75% stiff.
Michelin PSS 245/35-18 tires
Clip in 3" lapbelt using standard forged eyebolts in the stock seat belt locations. Custom spacer on the buckle mount.
On a mostly non-transitional course on a lower grip asphalt lot, we ended up at 42 psi front, 38 psi rear, 1.5 turns from full soft on the front Konis, & full soft on the front bar.
The PSS's seemed to like heat... Grip went up noticeably between first and second run and we got them very hot without them falling off much if at all.
We tried pressures ranging from 32/28 all the way to 46/38. Settled back on 42/38 that we started with, but it seemed more about feel vs. anything detectable on the timer. The lower pressures felt a little more mushy.
Tried front shock settings of full soft, one turn from full soft, and 1.5 turns from full soft. Didn't make a hell of a lot of difference to either of us really, which maps to what I've felt before on non-c5 Koni sports where it seems like playing with the **** doesn't really do a hell of a lot.
Tried the bar in the middle and softest positions... At the middle position it seemed a little more pushy immediately after turn in. Full soft, the front tried to hang more immediately after turn in. Stability mid corner & exit was similar with both.
Overall, it didn't seem to do anything dumb, was fairly straightforward to drive, no big issues I saw. I'd love to be able to get more front camber as tire temps showed us to be working the outside edge pretty hard, but it doesn't seem like its there. I suppose I can try the "loosen it all, tension it, and tighten it all back up" thing, but I'm gonna need more motivation to want to screw with it.
So... We'll see what its like at Nationals on concrete. I'll be taking the stock bar with me, just in case the car tightens up more.
Also... I freaking hate the flat metal Koni adjuster for the front. Holy hell does that thing suck to use. Does anyone make something that doesn't suck / has a bigger diameter? I think I'm just going to start popping off the strut tower bar and using a regular Koni dial if not.
Mark
So, ran the car today in the form I'll take it to Nationals, except that I still need to swap out the SS brake lines for stock.
Basic setup was:
Front: -1.6 deg, 0.1 deg toe out. ~ 7 deg caster (not entirely sure this was remeasured after the camber was adjusted, but also not sure if that matters). Hotchkis MX-5 adjustable front bar. Koni Sports
Rear: -1.1 deg, 0 toe, koni sports @ ~75% stiff.
Michelin PSS 245/35-18 tires
Clip in 3" lapbelt using standard forged eyebolts in the stock seat belt locations. Custom spacer on the buckle mount.
On a mostly non-transitional course on a lower grip asphalt lot, we ended up at 42 psi front, 38 psi rear, 1.5 turns from full soft on the front Konis, & full soft on the front bar.
The PSS's seemed to like heat... Grip went up noticeably between first and second run and we got them very hot without them falling off much if at all.
We tried pressures ranging from 32/28 all the way to 46/38. Settled back on 42/38 that we started with, but it seemed more about feel vs. anything detectable on the timer. The lower pressures felt a little more mushy.
Tried front shock settings of full soft, one turn from full soft, and 1.5 turns from full soft. Didn't make a hell of a lot of difference to either of us really, which maps to what I've felt before on non-c5 Koni sports where it seems like playing with the **** doesn't really do a hell of a lot.
Tried the bar in the middle and softest positions... At the middle position it seemed a little more pushy immediately after turn in. Full soft, the front tried to hang more immediately after turn in. Stability mid corner & exit was similar with both.
Overall, it didn't seem to do anything dumb, was fairly straightforward to drive, no big issues I saw. I'd love to be able to get more front camber as tire temps showed us to be working the outside edge pretty hard, but it doesn't seem like its there. I suppose I can try the "loosen it all, tension it, and tighten it all back up" thing, but I'm gonna need more motivation to want to screw with it.
So... We'll see what its like at Nationals on concrete. I'll be taking the stock bar with me, just in case the car tightens up more.
Also... I freaking hate the flat metal Koni adjuster for the front. Holy hell does that thing suck to use. Does anyone make something that doesn't suck / has a bigger diameter? I think I'm just going to start popping off the strut tower bar and using a regular Koni dial if not.
Mark
Thread Starter
Registered
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
From: Youngstown, OH
Howdy,
I've made some changes since then. There are degassed converted Koni dual adjustable shocks on the car now. They set the ride height a bit lower (no gas pressure) and so my alignment now is:
Left Front: -1.7 deg camber, 4.7 deg caster
Right Front: -2.0 deg camber, 5.1 deg caster
Total toe: -.27 deg (note degrees, not inches. IIRC this is around 1/8"?)
Left Rear: -1.3 deg
Right Rear: -1.4 deg
total toe: .01 deg (zero)
My shock settings won't match up to yours that well I expect. I'm got rear rebound in the range of 3/4 to full stiff for the shocks you have. Front rebound I play with some, but on concrete at the last event I was 2 turns from full soft up front (near full stiff, IIRC). I'd have to check my notes on compression, but it doesn't matter since you can't change yours anyway.
I tend to leave the front bar at full stiff. Changing it hasn't made a lot of difference from what I've found. My guess is that the additional stiffness taking grip away is balanced by holding the front slightly flatter and keeping the tire happier, improving group. Net is not much change.
I'm running Hankook RS3v2's now. 34/34. I've also run 34/32 and it seemed like it might have rear grip a touch, but its nothing major. Honestly, I don't tend to feel 2 psi changes.
I don't have a specific set of instructions for getting more camber. You can ask them to do a caster sweep (i.e. use the caster cam and adjust it through its range, looking for higher camber numbers). You can also loosen all the control arm & lower shock mount bolts, make sure there's weight on the suspension (jack under the ball joint on each control arm, if you're working on the floor), then tighten it up. I've heard of folks strapping the cars down or pulling on wheels or such, but I've not done it.
All of these tweaks do matter and add up, but remember that we're talking about tenths of a second here... If you're the typical new person and you're a few seconds back, just put anything reasonable on the car (which you have) and then go drive it!
Mark
I am going to try and replicate your setup from below - running CS. (I also have the Koni single adjustable and the Hotchkis bar). After your suggestion (on the other thread) - I currently have the following:
Front Camber - 1.3; Rear camber - 1.6; Front Toe - 1/8'' Toe Out; Rear Toe - 1/16'' Toe In; Rear suspensions: 50%, Front - Full Soft
* I asked my current alignment shop a few times about trying to get more front camber. They are not able to get beyond -1.3. Is there a specific set of instructions you can help with - which I can try and convey to the alignment guys to try and achieve?
* I currently run with a 2 PSI difference (BFG Rivals) from front-rear and this results in pretty neutral-under steer response. Is this similar in your setup too? Or does the -1.1 camber make it more tail happy?
Can you please share your current alignment setting, tire and your comments on how your car handles? Would be great for noobs like me to understand stuff better.
Front Camber - 1.3; Rear camber - 1.6; Front Toe - 1/8'' Toe Out; Rear Toe - 1/16'' Toe In; Rear suspensions: 50%, Front - Full Soft
* I asked my current alignment shop a few times about trying to get more front camber. They are not able to get beyond -1.3. Is there a specific set of instructions you can help with - which I can try and convey to the alignment guys to try and achieve?
* I currently run with a 2 PSI difference (BFG Rivals) from front-rear and this results in pretty neutral-under steer response. Is this similar in your setup too? Or does the -1.1 camber make it more tail happy?
Can you please share your current alignment setting, tire and your comments on how your car handles? Would be great for noobs like me to understand stuff better.
Left Front: -1.7 deg camber, 4.7 deg caster
Right Front: -2.0 deg camber, 5.1 deg caster
Total toe: -.27 deg (note degrees, not inches. IIRC this is around 1/8"?)
Left Rear: -1.3 deg
Right Rear: -1.4 deg
total toe: .01 deg (zero)
My shock settings won't match up to yours that well I expect. I'm got rear rebound in the range of 3/4 to full stiff for the shocks you have. Front rebound I play with some, but on concrete at the last event I was 2 turns from full soft up front (near full stiff, IIRC). I'd have to check my notes on compression, but it doesn't matter since you can't change yours anyway.
I tend to leave the front bar at full stiff. Changing it hasn't made a lot of difference from what I've found. My guess is that the additional stiffness taking grip away is balanced by holding the front slightly flatter and keeping the tire happier, improving group. Net is not much change.
I'm running Hankook RS3v2's now. 34/34. I've also run 34/32 and it seemed like it might have rear grip a touch, but its nothing major. Honestly, I don't tend to feel 2 psi changes.
I don't have a specific set of instructions for getting more camber. You can ask them to do a caster sweep (i.e. use the caster cam and adjust it through its range, looking for higher camber numbers). You can also loosen all the control arm & lower shock mount bolts, make sure there's weight on the suspension (jack under the ball joint on each control arm, if you're working on the floor), then tighten it up. I've heard of folks strapping the cars down or pulling on wheels or such, but I've not done it.
All of these tweaks do matter and add up, but remember that we're talking about tenths of a second here... If you're the typical new person and you're a few seconds back, just put anything reasonable on the car (which you have) and then go drive it!
Mark
Registered
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
From: San Diego, CA
Thanks a ton again Mark - that really helps. I would put myself in the "not too bright" driver category with more aggression than skill :-) I have been driving the RX8 a decent bit - about 150 runs in the 2 years I've had it - for the longest time I did not change anything (switched from a FWD car which took me while too). I AutoX in San Diego - which has a killer CS group and I am 2-3 seconds behind the leader mostly. I want to try and learn car setup in parallel - I am sure it is not going to give me those 3 seconds I need though - unfortunately :-) I want to try and get to a setup (and learn the method) for maximizing grip - and hopefully I can adapt my driving to suit it.
I am going to get a set of RS-3's (V2) - I am going to try 235/40 - because the most time I loose has been in sweepers where I end up feeding too much steering due to lack of feedback from the front wheel - want to see if narrower/slightly thinner tires will improve that.
* Wondering how many runs you got out of the Rival's before they were heat-cycled? Would you also happen to know how many runs you can get out of the RS3s?
Thanks a lot again Mark.
I am going to get a set of RS-3's (V2) - I am going to try 235/40 - because the most time I loose has been in sweepers where I end up feeding too much steering due to lack of feedback from the front wheel - want to see if narrower/slightly thinner tires will improve that.
* Wondering how many runs you got out of the Rival's before they were heat-cycled? Would you also happen to know how many runs you can get out of the RS3s?
Thanks a lot again Mark.
More camber as follows:
1. Put car up on jack stands and remove all four wheels.
2. Unbolt end links from sway bar ends.
3. Loosen suspension bolts.
4. Starting at one suspension corner place jack underneath the ball joint and jack the suspension at the corner to full compression. This may require using a jack with a long travel reach. While in the full compression position tighten all the suspension bolts there to max torque spec.
5. Once fully tightened lower jack and proceed to next suspension corner and repeat step 4.
6. After all four corners are done, reconnect end links to sway bars, install & torque wheels, lower car off jack stands.
7. Take car for suspension alignment.
1. Put car up on jack stands and remove all four wheels.
2. Unbolt end links from sway bar ends.
3. Loosen suspension bolts.
4. Starting at one suspension corner place jack underneath the ball joint and jack the suspension at the corner to full compression. This may require using a jack with a long travel reach. While in the full compression position tighten all the suspension bolts there to max torque spec.
5. Once fully tightened lower jack and proceed to next suspension corner and repeat step 4.
6. After all four corners are done, reconnect end links to sway bars, install & torque wheels, lower car off jack stands.
7. Take car for suspension alignment.
Thread Starter
Registered
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
From: Youngstown, OH
Howdy,
I had a similar lack of feel from the Rivals when I ran them. I don't know a # of runs (I stopped counting runs when I stopped using Rs) but I suspect over 150 and I didn't notice them being heat cycled out. I'm on my first set of RS3s now, so no real experience on when / if they go away due to heat cycles.
I think you'll get some front end response back mostly from switching brands moreso than tire sizes.
Speaking of sizes... Are you talking about the 235/40-18? I went with the 245/40-17 for my car because shortening the gearing helps a bit. I think its a small improvement (tenths), but its certainly an improvement. I think if I were going to run 18's I'd be tempted to run the 255/35-18, just because its a reduced diameter and I don't think a wider tire will _hurt_ anything, even if it might not be faster than the narrower tire. And in the back of my head I still have some "bigger is better" bias. :-)
Regardless, all of this is in the "tenths" category. If you're a few seconds back from your local CS leaders, your plan forward here sounds great. Do what Sipe suggests above to make sure you're getting all the camber you can from the front of the car, put some tires on there that aren't horrible, and then go drive the hell out of it.
Mark
Thanks a ton again Mark - that really helps. I would put myself in the "not too bright" driver category with more aggression than skill :-) I have been driving the RX8 a decent bit - about 150 runs in the 2 years I've had it - for the longest time I did not change anything (switched from a FWD car which took me while too). I AutoX in San Diego - which has a killer CS group and I am 2-3 seconds behind the leader mostly. I want to try and learn car setup in parallel - I am sure it is not going to give me those 3 seconds I need though - unfortunately :-) I want to try and get to a setup (and learn the method) for maximizing grip - and hopefully I can adapt my driving to suit it.
I am going to get a set of RS-3's (V2) - I am going to try 235/40 - because the most time I loose has been in sweepers where I end up feeding too much steering due to lack of feedback from the front wheel - want to see if narrower/slightly thinner tires will improve that.
* Wondering how many runs you got out of the Rival's before they were heat-cycled? Would you also happen to know how many runs you can get out of the RS3s?
Thanks a lot again Mark.
I am going to get a set of RS-3's (V2) - I am going to try 235/40 - because the most time I loose has been in sweepers where I end up feeding too much steering due to lack of feedback from the front wheel - want to see if narrower/slightly thinner tires will improve that.
* Wondering how many runs you got out of the Rival's before they were heat-cycled? Would you also happen to know how many runs you can get out of the RS3s?
Thanks a lot again Mark.
I think you'll get some front end response back mostly from switching brands moreso than tire sizes.
Speaking of sizes... Are you talking about the 235/40-18? I went with the 245/40-17 for my car because shortening the gearing helps a bit. I think its a small improvement (tenths), but its certainly an improvement. I think if I were going to run 18's I'd be tempted to run the 255/35-18, just because its a reduced diameter and I don't think a wider tire will _hurt_ anything, even if it might not be faster than the narrower tire. And in the back of my head I still have some "bigger is better" bias. :-)
Regardless, all of this is in the "tenths" category. If you're a few seconds back from your local CS leaders, your plan forward here sounds great. Do what Sipe suggests above to make sure you're getting all the camber you can from the front of the car, put some tires on there that aren't horrible, and then go drive the hell out of it.
Mark
Last edited by marka; Aug 7, 2014 at 09:53 AM.
Bearded Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
From: NYC
FYI, my full prepped C-Street RX-8 is up for sale, priced to sell.
https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8s-sale-w...street-255381/
https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8s-sale-w...street-255381/
The reason they're different is because the high internal gas pressure will make you're RX8 look like an off-road racer if you put the perch in the OE position.
Bottom line, choose a different shock.
Bottom line, choose a different shock.
Registered
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: Los Angeles, CA
Thanks for all the info guys.
I ended up going with a set of double adjustable revalved koni yellows.
Speaking of which, does any one have any insight on where to best set the rebound and compression?
I currently have the rebound set at a half turn from full stiff and the compression set halfway between full soft and full stiff. Both front and rear shocks are set the same, which feels great compared to the worn out OEM shocks I raced on before. Btw, I'm on stock swaybars.
Thanks.
I ended up going with a set of double adjustable revalved koni yellows.
Speaking of which, does any one have any insight on where to best set the rebound and compression?
I currently have the rebound set at a half turn from full stiff and the compression set halfway between full soft and full stiff. Both front and rear shocks are set the same, which feels great compared to the worn out OEM shocks I raced on before. Btw, I'm on stock swaybars.
Thanks.
