124Spider

I didn't lose the brakes on either car; what I was saying, inartfully, was that, since one only finds out that one has exceeded one's brake's limits by having brake failure of some severity, I decided to get better brake pads and fluid before I found out the hard way that it actually is necessary to have better pads and fluid.

To answer the substance of your question, I cannot drive the RX-8 with a helmet. It has a sunroof, and I'm tall; my hair brushes against the ceiling, and I just don't fit in it with a helmet. But don't fret for me--the S2000 is ample consolation, especially with the top down. :p However, I'm quite certain that comparing stock pads/DOT3 fluid on the S2000 to stock pads/DOT3 fluid on the RX-8 is quite valid, especially since the RX-8 is heavier than the S2000. IMO, it's just silly to tempt fate by keeping the stock pads and fluid after a couple of track events--I fried my stock pads in two track days, and I fried the hybrid pads in three more track days.

The most likely places to lose one's brakes on our local track--Pacific Raceways outside of Seattle--would be on turn 2 (whose braking zone I hit at 130mph, braking down to about 55-60), turn 3a (whose braking zone I hit at 100, braking down to about 30), or turn 5a (whose braking zone I hit at about 100, braking to 55-60). They come in pretty quick succession (without a lot of cool-down time between), and any one would be a bad place to lose one's brakes!

Matt RX8

Actaully, if you compare the two the RX8 wins on all counts when it comes to braking.

The rotors on the RX8 are about an inch bigger at each wheel and the weight difference for a base 6MT vs. S2000 is less than 200 lbs...

s2000 rotors are 11.8 F/11.1 R, whereas RX-8 has 12.7 F/11.93 R.

Also the s2000 rears brakes are not ventilated whereas I think the RX8's rear brakes are.

The performance stats also show that RX8 has superior braking:

Braking, 100-0 mph, ft 338 (s2000) 318 (RX8)
Braking, 60-0 mph, ft 118 (s2000) 115 (RX8)


It's really a shame that you can't take your RX8 to the track because I'm sure you'd find it to be a much superior track car than your Honda. :p

RX8SpdDmn

I'll be running at Watkins Glen in May. Not my first time there, but the first time with my RX-8. I'll be putting in Ate Super Blue, as the Genesee Valley Chapter BMWCCA requires that brake fluid be less than 3 months old, and I don't want to chance boiling fluid for such a cheap upgrade. In the thread below this one, I'm asking about brake pads. I think that I'll be putting the Hawk HP+ on the front and leave the rears stock, holding my stock fronts as back-ups.

Is anyone ductuing air to their rotors? I see a piece of metal on the hub that directs air into the rotor, but no ducts from the front of the car. If anyone has done it, could you detail how? Thanks.

124Spider

While I'm not ready to cede braking superiority to the RX-8, I certainly know that its brakes are excellent (of course, overall track/autocross superiority is quite clear, isn't it? :p ). All I was really saying is that, if I felt uncertain about using a lighter, faster car on the track with stock brakes and pads, that concern should be at least equally valid for the RX-8, an argument made to counter those who seem to think that such a simple, inexpensive upgrade is not advisable.

Matt RX8

If it makes you feel any better, I think you've talked me into using DOT4 .

124Spider

Smart man! Now, if you really catch the bug, you will find that you fry your stock pads in no more than two track days. Be sure to examine them carefully before an event, and keep in mind that the last half goes much faster than the first half (a smaller pad to deal with the heat fries what's left more quickly). When you realize that you won't get through your next event on the stockers, upgrade to a hybrid pad, which you can keep on your car all the time, or to a full race pad, which you should not spend a lot of time using on the street (they need to be very hot to work right; it's always mildly alarming to hit the first braking zone after getting on with cold pads, and remembering that, no, I don't have very good brakes yet; that's another good reason to take it easy the first lap or two on the track each session).

It's a PITA to change pads (and fluid) the first time or two, but becomes pretty routine quite quickly.

BlueRenesis82

Yeah, after this past weekend I have definitly got the bug for road racing. I can't wait to get back on the track with some better tires, and maybe a rear shock tower brace. It's just too much fun and a great way to relax.

Matt RX8

Cool pics BlueRenesis82, thanks for sharing.

At the tech inspection, the BMW guys commented on my rear brake pads being very thin. I think that all rear brake pads on RX-8s must be thin because my car has only 2500 miles on it and only 30 autocross runs on it. Can someone confirm or deny that the rear brake pads are thin relative to other cars???

BlueRenesis82

I don't see that being a problem, the fronts are what you should look at and worry about more....unless u like driving backwards

I do have some other pics, but they are huge. (shows me chasing down a Z28 and a Firehawk, with the M3 that I passed in the background)

Matt RX8

I've got my Motul 600 in now....

Only 4 more days until Road America.

Zoom Zoom...

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

so you running motul 600 w/ stock pads? good luck at Road America, let us know how it goes

Matt RX8

That's my set-up. I have an extra bottle of brake fluid and also an extra set of pads just in case. EDIT:: Also, 3 extra quarts of oil

I'll let everyone know how it goes.

BlueRenesis82

remember on the carousel you should be right down the center line between the 2 strips of asphalt, you can really get her screaming as you head towards what should be the kink

crossbow

The Audi/Posche club at VIR "required" that you run a DOT4 fluid. It was part of the tech inspection actually. Sitting right there on the check list (DOT4 Brake Fluid __).

I think the real question is...given the ease of bleeding your brake system, why wouldn't you run dot4? Especially considering how cheap ATE Super blue, or Vavoline synpower fluid is. (Or you could run motul600 for a whole slew of events if you have the $$$).

I just got back from VIR in my 6, (which is heavier then your 8 with tiny front rotors of 11.1) with zero fade, and zero pedal issues running ATE Super Racing blue, and Carbotech XP9 brake pads. (T1-S Rubber)



Here's a single lap video (I'm the silver car in front). I'm still a track noob, so excuse my poor lines.

http://www.glue.umd.edu/~greghess/virlap.wmv

Btw if you want to save money, don't ever go to the track...cause you will be going back again...and again...and again...and you'll suck all your friends in too.

BlueRenesis82

Yeah, after my stint at RA, I'm trying to suck all my friends into coming with me, that way I don't feel so bad about them being faster in a straight line than me

Matt RX8

Don't have much time. I'll post some more pics later. But RA was awesome and the car was great. It was my first DE but I think I did pretty good, by the end of the weekend, I was seldom getting passed and it was only by E46 ///M3 or the E39 ///M5. My instructor said he was going to recomend me for the intermediate run group next time (I ran in the novice group).

Weather on Sunday was crazy, rain, sunshine, snow, sleet all alternating at various times of the time and during each session and sometimes different weather conditions around the track since it is 4 miles long.

I was able to get my RX8 to 122 mph on the front straight into 1 and on the back into turn 5. I found with less than a 1/4 tank of fuel I started to starve the engine. I never went into 5th gear at the track and took almost every corner in either 3 or 4th (mostly 3rd).


Here is a pic of me chasing down my buddy in his cooper S.




Here is a pic of a bad day at the track. This car had 1300 miles on the odemeter when this happened. He was in the advanced group. Driver and instructor had minor injuries but were mostly OK.

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

awesome, glad you had fun, how did the stock pads hold up? any fading? sounds like no

BlueRenesis82

Woot Mach! way to go! Lets see some more pics of the fun!

124Spider

Great! Glad you had fun, but you're now starting down the slippery slope of the go-fast crack pipe. Beware!.

What did the Elise do, lift or brake in a high speed turn?

Matt RX8

Thanks guys. More pics to follow once I get home tonight.

As for the Elise, I heard a few different versions of the story but basically the crash was 100% driver error. It happened on Saturday when the weather was fine, probably in that guy's first or second session.

He was coming out of the carousel (Turn 9) and going off the track or had one (or two) wheels off the track and instead of driving off under control he jerked the wheel to try to stay on the track and then the car spun toward the inside of the curve and hit a concrete barrier wall. It then continued spinning and then hit the barrier wall again. On the second impact, the car was 3 feet off the ground.

I heard he was going 120 mph when this happenned. When the track was dry, I was only doing about 80 mph at around that point so he was really flying IMHO.

Stock pads were fine. I was breaking much further in than most of the novice group (but hey they were novices) and had no issues with fade. I wasn't braking hard enough to engage ABS and I was also braking a little earlier than I could have because I had to downshift for most curves and I can't heel and toe so I had to give myself some extra space/time.

I never went off but did get sideways in turn 5 in the rain/sleet. Once it went sideways, I hit the brakes (which I later found out is the last thing to do) but I let off right away and pushed in the clutch so it didn't stall. I also had DSC on in the rain which helped there. My car then almost came to a stop (or a maybe a brief stop). Since noone was close I downshifted to 2nd and drove away. The next car was a WRX who almost spun off the outside of the track at the same time but he recovered. He saw my slide and recovery and was impressed. Turn 5 collects a lot of water since it is downhill from both the entry and exit. We were working the dry line when this happenned and I was only doing 35-40 mph when I went sideways.

Weather was so bad at one point (blinding sleet/rain) that my instructor told me "Okay, now we are just driving for survival".

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

must be really reassuring when your instructor says that

BlueRenesis82

Im surprised they let you guys stay on the track with sleet out there.

Matt RX8

Weather was crazy. My classroom instructor said he could tell how bad the conditions were by seeing everyone's expressions:

The students all had their heads hung low and the instructors were walking around with ***** eating grins :D on their faces... I guess instructors like those conditions because it really forces people to be smooth.


I had an awesome instructor. He was an older guy (maybe mid 50s) with 20-30 years of instructing experience.
Great guy and I think I improved a ton throughout the weekend.
By the end, my cool down lap was faster than my hot laps when I started. My instructor was also very critical of my driving when I screwed up but was also inspiring me with confidence:
Everytime that we closed up on someone to pass he would say "be careful, that guy is not as good as we are"...

Here is another bigger pic:

124Spider

Yeah, I was on the track a couple of weeks ago, when a heavy hail storm started. I got off, and a minute later, they black flagged the track. This is just for fun, and when it's not fun any more, I stop.

124Spider

Nice pictures; my wife went to my first track day and took pictures, but refuses to come any more, since she's convinced I'm going to kill myself. Fortunately, my son's girlfriend has come to some of our autocrosses and taken some pictures.

A tip on the pictures. Driving pictures look more "live" when you can see some evidence of motion, either from wheel-spin and/or background blurring. The way to do that is to set your shutter speed, if you can, at around 1/100 of a second. If you're following the motion of the car carefully and smoothly, you get a sharp picture of the car, but you get the evidence of speed, also.