And another is minimum camber possible in the rear.

Yep, but two of the elements, tires and shocks, I see pretty clear agreement on (Kumho 245 and Koni SA yellows). The front bar is definitely an area of difference. Also, at the end of the day, what you go fastest with and what I go fastest with, in terms of set up, may be quite different, as well.

But, I think it would be helpful for this "sticky" if we had skid pad data of the standard set up (stock bar, Konis and Kumhos) and a few different alignments. I realize that: (A) this is easier said than done (I went through this experiment with the Z06 at Atwater right after the 2005 Atwater Tour and it was a bunch of work, but helpful), (B) if someone does go to the trouble, they might feel the results are "proprietary" and (C) YMMV, regarding surface, temperature and other variables. Still, it could prove to be useful information...in terms of tire temp changes across their surface, lateral grip measured and wear patterns observed.

I guess I wasn't being clear. Given 2 cars with otherwise the same setup, the same camber stagger (i.e 0.3 deg more in the rear) should yield similar results even though they might have different maximum front camber readings. Don't have any proof of it, however, it makes sense, and gives you someplace to start. Better than flipping a coin. :lol2:

Front Camber -1.6 Left, -1.6 Right
Front Caster 6.6 Left, 6.9 Right
Front Toe 0.03 Left, 0.04 Right
Front Cross Camber 0.0
Front Cross Caster -0.3
Front Total Toe 0.06

Rear Camber -1.8 Left, -1.8 Right
Rear Toe 0.08 Left, 0.08 Right
Rear Total Toe 0.15
Thrust angle 0.00

^^ Mine was very similar to above

I ran zero toe in the front though....and 1/32 toe in in the rear

dannobre, mine is a moderate set-up since it is my daily driver. I may participate in 5-8 events a year. At some point I may get more aggressive. Tire wear is a concern for daily use.

Mine rears wore on the inside on the street with that amount of camber.....and the outsides at the track....worked OK for a compromise as well....

I just had a successful track day (1st time in the RX8) with the following setup.

Alignment:
-1.2F, -1.4R Camber
6.5 Caster
0 Toe F/R
34psi all around on OEM Dunlops.

Turn in was good, tail end rotated with pedal modulation while trail braking. Car is daily driver.

Speaking of alignments.

Drooool


I can dream, damn it!

Hey SouthFL, I'm from the 92x forum. :) Is -1.2F the max for the front camber? Do you have aftermarket swaybars? As much as I want I like to keep it stock and work on the alignments. Maybe what I'll do is take the 8 out on some autoX events and see how it feels before tinkering with the alignment.

Everyone drives differently ... hence there is absolute no agreement. The setting of one person may not work for you. Certainly zero toe will not work for me.

Mine is gone from extreme to more extreme. I now have -2.6 camber front and -2.15 rear. Front toe out slightly to 1mm in total and rear toe in 3mm in total. I have been toeing the rear in to get more stable acceleration.

I brake early but trail brake, and throttle in pretty much 1/3 into the corner, and way before the apex. That is my style and hence I worked out this combo for me.

If you think I should experiment something please let me know.

BTW the shoulder wearing problem is solved!!!

I went from 8" to 8.5" rim and +40 to +32 offset.

ACE

I still have the same slick 245/40 Bridgestone

I'm not sure where the front maxes out on stock hardware (I'm sure the info is available on this site). I'm running on stock everything.

When mine was stock the front maxed out at -1.25

Do you get much oversteer?

Last track day is semi wet so there will be some oversteer on braking. But once the track is dry, I had the R spec Bridgestone RE55S and they grip ok and the balance shift back to understeer. I tried to make the rear softer to exaggerate the weight shifting to the front around the corner, ... and a bit of trail braking.

I found the car is not as responsive turning in when it is closer to zero. Power out the car is nice and more in the zone (more zap out of the corner), but it feels it can snap power oversteer at anytime.

It is a trade off, but I am happy with the camber setting as the tyre temp across the thread is less than 10 degree C (outside is low 60s and inside is mid to high 60s).

Just got the KW Variant 3s on the car yesterday, will be getting it aligned/corner balanced tomorrow, thing I'm going to go for around 2.0-2.5 deg in the front and 1.5-2.0 in the rear.

Thoughts?

I'm still a little up in the air about compression and rebound settings, can someone post some shock dynos of their konis, (revalved or externally adj. or otherwise) and let me know what your running so i can compare them to my KW shock dynos?

Well I know that Drifting is not the most popular topic on this forum, but I entered my first drift day and learned a few things along the way so I thought I would share. I entered the tournament at the end of the day just for more seat time and ended up making it into the top 16 (14th) out of about 40 cars. http://dangin.smugmug.com/gallery/27...144150268-L-LB http://www.everythingdrift.com/index...=127&Itemid=30 I was running Kumho MX's at about 48psi all around and my standard, mild street / auto-x alignment . -1.4 front camber, 0 toe, can't remember caster, -1.6 rear camber, 0 toe rear. RB springs and sways, stock shocks.

The first thing I learned was that the RX8 is a much better grip car than drift car. I guess I knew that, but drifting was a lot more difficult than I expected. I could do a nice four wheel drift on any one corner if I attacked it correctly, but connecting two or more corners was nearly impossible at first, as soon as the car got straight going through the transition it would grip through the next section. I kept getting more aggressive and latter with the transitions, once in a while it would work great and I could connect two corners, other times it would just snap and spin out. About 1/2 way through the day I decided to toe out the rear. I went "2 marks" toe-out on the little factory indicators. I didn't have a way to measure the amount of change track side but visually it was pretty noticeable. It was a huge improvement for drifting or if you prefer a little oversteer. As soon as the weight would transfer from one side to the other it would start the oversteer process. Now I was able to connect the corners allot easier, I never got a perfect run in, but was able to string together about four turns out of six by the end of the day.

I had a great time, didn't destroy any parts and now I want to learn more. The tires have one more drift day left in them and I'm going to try some more alignment changes on June 23rd. This time I will go a little more negative camber in the front, a little closer to 0 camber rear, slight toe-in at front, toe out rear. I'll have to learn how to use the e-brake a little as well. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Thanks for all the good scoop in this thread. However I have one item that you might be able to solve. When going to try and get my camber maxed, the left was the limiter at -.9. The right front could go all the way out to -1.8. So I am maxing the front camber at -.9 and the caster comes to 4.8. While talking to the guys at speed Inn today, they said that they have seen several RX8's that have this issue, that they think that it is the sub frame alignment. Do any of you have some input into what I can do to fix this save for getting new springs to get more camber?
Currently using
Front:
Camber: L -.9 R -.9
Caster: L 4.8 R 4.8
Toe: .05
Rear:
Camber: L -1.2 R -1.2
Toe: .05
I'm autocrossing the car and drive on the road for fun and to and from events but not daily driver.

By the way the car has 7800 miles and never damaged, all stock.

If you run BS in SCCA autox events, then your only choices are:

1) install some koni SA
2) let the car "settle in" for 10-20k miles or so
3) get a new car

my alignment settings and LF limits are nearly identical to yours although I have no toe all around.

I'm praying that after this season my car will "settle in" (1st aligned at 11k) and I can get a whopping .1 or .2 more front camber. We'll see.

If you don't intend to run stock, then new springs as you already know are the easiest way to get more camber.

I only got 0.7, so you're not the only one.

Stock Autocross Alignment Solution
 

After three alignments, and exhaustive research of this sites threads (thanks to track head for getting this started so long ago), I believe the best solution for cars that aren't able to get much front camber is to get a second opinion.
I finally found the shop that all the fast guys use locally (Brooks Tire Inc. in Corpus Christi Tx.). Owner came out to look at the car in his Renault/lucky seven F1 shirt so I knew things were looking good. From there I explained I wanted to max out the front camber, and reply was, are you autocrossing and doing time trials?
Long story short, the alignment tech had me sit in the car for maximum accuracy, and explained the RX8 was a lot like Porsches he works on regularly (It was the local porsche club that put me in the right direction at a local time trail event).
Previously I could only get -.7 from the first shop, not sit in car or go to the back. second shop, -.9 was most and could go in back not sit in car. Now, -1.2 left was the max, big difference. And why do you say that is?
First, better equipment, it has been calibrated within two weeks.
Second, tech know how to max the adjusters, he showed me how guys that don't work on sports cars won't understand the adjusters.
Finally, he ensured the ride height and suspension was evenly loaded, then put me in the car.
It looks to me that the most anyone is getting is -1.2 camber from the front left, and that is I believe what it should be. Like dealing with doctors, always get a second, and third opinion before giving up and admitting defeat.
Thanks again to all the guys that wrote in, all your input was useful in my learning curve into getting the most from this beast at the track. Now just one week away to next event.

Anyone within driving distance of Atlanta should go to Gran Tourismo East (www.granturismoeast.com) as they are the best in town and are very familiar with RX8s having aligned many over the past 3 years.

So Frances, you said the tech explained to you how to work the adjusters, what exactly did he do different than the guys before him?

The camber adjustment bolt looks like it has no more adjustment if you look at the front lobe and don't look at the back side of the control arm to see if it can be turned in more. It looks like the lobe on the front is maxed out, and that is what the first two shops I went to thought. Long story short, there are lots of folks that haven't worked on fully adjustable suspensions, or deep down are concerned about putting in heavy camber adjustments.
But the other thing they did was ensure the suspension was not loaded on either side. When we put the car on the lift, they had hydraulic lifts that lifted the car front and back on the suspension,not the wheels. This centered it up, making the readings accurate. Then with me loaded in the car, you have an accurate reading of the ride height in racing trim.
I trusted this information as it made sense when the guy explained why someone would think it had no more adjustment.

Quick question for all you alignment experts. I noticed that my front left tire is wearing a bit more then the other three. I am running on stock Dunlops, -1.5 L/R Front camber, 0 Front toe, 6.5 Castor, -1.8 L/R Rear camber, and 1/8 total toe in Rear. The only thing I can think of is that when I got my alignment done I was not in the car. Could this be the cause?

Devil Dog,
Are you only driving on the street?

Mainly yes, I do about 1 track weekend a month. I know that the inside edge will wear faster than the outside edge. It's just that the only tire that is wearing faster is the left front?

I'm not expert, but if I have to take a guess, either 1) with you in the car, you cause the LF alignment to change and have a slight toe change. or 2) the alignment rack you did this on is out of wack.

Since you're not that big of a guy, I doubt number 1 would cause noticeable difference in tire wear.

I guess I can get the alighnment checked somwhere else. It will have to wait until after this weekend. By the way are you going?

OK, so I got my alignment, and I followed the common practice to get more camber by sacrificing caster. I decided to model the reaction tonight, and has anyone looked into the trade off between losing caster and gaining camber?

I have to double check the model I made, but here is what I have found.

Camber -1.45 deg with 5.0deg caster (on my car now)
Turn the wheel 15 deg you end up with -2.69 camber
Turn the wheel 10 deg you end up with -2.30 camber
Turn the wheel 5 deg you end up with -1.88 camber

Camber -1.25 deg with 7.0 deg caster (assumes that you loose .1camber per 1 deg of caster, think I read it somewhere, unknown if this is an obtainable setting on my car).
Turn the wheel 15 deg you end up with -3.02 camber
Turn the wheel 10 deg you end up with -2.44 camber
Turn the wheel 5 deg you end up with -1.85 camber

Anyone know what a typical steering angle is for a slalom, long sweeper or tight low speed corner?
Seems like we sacrificing actual turning camber for a good alignment dyno number? What is the negative of too high a caster value?

Looking for allignment specs
 

I recently got four 245/40 18 tires and a new alignment, I have a 35 mm offset on 8.5 wide rims. The car is under-steering and I have to corner at lower speeds to keep the front from plowing. I seldom have the chance to autocross or track, but do occasionally. I hate to use the brakes before cornering on the street, but this alignment requires it. The old man who did my alignment specializes in 15 year old Caprices and doesn't understand performance driving. Please help. I am hoping someone will reply with a lightly aggressive set up for the street that I can take somewhere. I want my super handling back.

Thanks

This is stating the obvious, but maybe you should steer clear of the guy who is aligning Caprices and Town Cars. Somebody in Ohio help this guy out with a referral to a performance handling oriented alignment shop.

unfortunately it's not that easy, nor should you solely rely on a model. You need to investigate bump steer relative to caster and make actual measurements on the car to verify your findings.

I like leaving caster in a car.
Killing caster to gain a little static camber is not how I roll.
Excellent work!
FM

Ya, the model I made just had some basic angles, not the actual suspension geometry and attachment points. Has anyone made an actual model, or tried two settings on their alignment, one with max camber, the other with quite a bit of caster added back (to 7ish deg) without many other changes and compared?
I just finished my first AutoX in the car, and I like the alignment settings I ended up with. I'm starting to get the hang of it, but it's very different than my old AWD car (no more mashing of the throttle). That and I'm left wanting more traction since I'm running on the OEM Dunlops. Next year will be the time for 710s. Right now I guess it's good to run on tires that won't hide my mistakes with massive grip.

I was thinking of trying Silver8's set up.

Front Camber -1.6 Left, -1.6 Right
Front Caster 6.6 Left, 6.9 Right
Front Toe 0.03 Left, 0.04 Right
Front Cross Camber 0.0
Front Cross Caster -0.3
Front Total Toe 0.06

Rear Camber -1.8 Left, -1.8 Right
Rear Toe 0.08 Left, 0.08 Right
Rear Total Toe 0.15
Thrust angle 0.00

It seems a tad aggressive, but I know very little about alignments.

With the nurfed alignment the car tracks great, and he eliminated the tendency to follow road ruts, and it is more stable over 100 mph, but he also eliminated the ability to take a corner at 40 mph without squealing a tire. I am hoping to go back with hard numbers and get a discount on a new alignment. Think Silver8 set up is good for the street?

When you are talking about toe. Please make sure the followings:

negative toe means what? Toe in or toe out?

In Australia, it means toe out.

Zokk, I will think that you have zero toe for all 4 wheels but I would aim the car having slight toe in rear and slight toe out front (just on that side of zero), just in case that the set up moves while driving.

Ran auto-x today at Atwater, CA
Felt stable for a mild setup.
-1.5 Fr Camber
-2.1 Rr Camber
6.7 Fr Caster
.12 Toe Fr (not sure if it was +/- don't have my sheet with me right now)
.10 Toe Rr (not sure if it was +/- don't have my sheet with me right now)
.01 Thrust angle

[edit]
this was done with me in the car.

Installed Koni SA + Tein S-Tech, let it settle for 2 weeks and got an alignment. Paid $32 extra to get unlimited adjustments for 3 years, which will come in handy trying different degrees of negative camber.

FL:
Camber -1.5*
Caster 6.9*
Toe 0.12*
SAI 12.1*
Included Angle 10.7*

FR:
-1.3*
7.6*
0.10*
12.2*
10.9*

Front:
Cross Camber -0.1*
Cross Caster -0.7*
Total Toe 0.22*

RL:
Camber -2.5*
Toe 0.14*

RR:
Camber -2.5*
Toe 0.09*

Rear:
Total Toe 0.23*
Thrust Angle 0.02*

I mainly run DE's with this car so the massive camber in the rear will actually increase tire longevity, at least w/ my application, since I don't run around a lot on the street...

Front camber: L/R -1.7
Front Caster: L 6.6, R 6.9
Front Toe L/R 0.03

Rear Camber: L/R -1.8
Rear Toe L/R .06
Thrust angle 0.00

Ok I am a bit slow here. I only just got my RX-8 a few weeks ago, just got a set of race wheels and tires this past week, I finally got my race alignment today, and my first autocross is tomorrow morning.

Now, I read a whole bunch of stuff on here about alignments and there seems to be two kinds of people. Those that got less than a degree negative camber in the front and those that got more. I turned out to be one of the ones that got less. About -.4. I even saw the post about the second set of adjuster lobes on the back side of the control arm pivots and made sure he turned those. Fat side of the washer to the inside so as to push the pivot out toward the outside of the car. My question is... Is that all you can do or is there some other secret adjustment having to do with that third lobe way on the back end of the control arm. I understand this to be the caster adjustment.

And that leads me to another observaton. There also seems to be two schools of thought regarding caster. One says get rid of it in favor of more negative camber. The other says keep it coz it makes negative camber when you turn the steering wheel. So, which is better? Static negative camber or dynamic negative camber as a result of steering angle. I posed this question to the alignment guy and he said that the camber gained by steering angle as a result of caster is very minute and wouldn't be significant. I don't know if he knows what he's talking about though.

I'm kinda hoping that fellow who was making models of suspension geometry finally finished what he was doing and got some hard numbers for us to look at. Barring that, I would be willing to do such a thing if I had the software package. (freeware anyone?)

Thanks in advance for all the info/flames that ensue...

Rob

Corner balance/Autocross alignment

Can anyone recommend a good location (preferably from experience) in the greater Tampa-Lakeland-Orlando area that can perform this service? :eyetwitch

OK, I'm pulling my hair out over here.

I've read through this thread a hundred times. There's too many settings listed without the application.

I autocross only. 18" stock wheels. Stock suspension.

Is this a good starting point?

Front Camber -0.9 Left, -0.9 Right
Front Caster 6.7 Left, 6.9
Front Toe 0.09 Left, 0.09 Right
Front Cross Camber 0.0
Front Cross Caster -0.5
Front Total Toe 0.18

Rear Camber -2.0 Left, -2.0 Right
Rear Toe 0.13 Left, 0.12 Right
Rear Total Toe 0.25
Thrust angle 0.01

If not, can you please make appropriate suggestions?

Well, I just got my rx8 this year and have spent most of the season autocrossing it and here's what I've come up with...

I don't think the rx8 is capable of having too much negative camber in front so max that out and combat tire roll-over with pressure adjustments. I run about 38-40psi on 245 falken rt615's on the stock rims. Maybe a pound or two less in the rear. I don't really have any advice yet for rear camber. Mine is roughly the same as the front and that seems to work ok for me. It's still a little on the understeering side for my taste, but I'm still learning the car as well, so who knows. Rear camber requirements can depend a lot on driving style.

I tried maxing out the caster this last race to get more negative camber while turning but it ended up being too much and in low speed, tight corners I got horrible understeer so I put it back to stock, roughly, whatever that was. I can't really experiment incrementally because my adjusters are buchered and I sort of have to hammer them around, so I'll get back later with more results on that after I fix it.

The only other thing I have done is drill a new hole in the front sway bar forward of the original hole to stiffen that up. I don't know how far forward of the old hole. I just drilled it as far forward as I thought I could without getting the mounting bolt on the fat part of the bar. I did it while it was on the car but taken loose from its mounts. I didn't even have to take the wheels off. However, it would be a lot easier to do it with the bar removed from the car entirely but my laziness made me work harder if that makes any sense.

I came in 4th or something on the OE tires that came on the car. Since I got the Falkens I've won every race I've entered. No super serious competition but still...

Good luck.

ANY COMMENTS OR ADJUSTMENTS ON MY NUMBERS ABOVE??? ANYONE (nicely!!!)

ok I guess the short hand version of my post is get more negative camber in the front if you can. I think you can get upwards of -1.5.

And prolly zero toe all around to slightly toe out.

Also get a pyrometer and take temperatures outer middle and inner on your tires after your runs. That will help you get a clearer picture in your mind of what is going on with your suspension.

Mazdaspeed sport springs, shocks, ms front and rear sway bars.
18"x8.5" +45 offset with 235 tires

Front
camber -2'10" (max out already)
toe in 0'08" each side, total toe 0'16"
max caster i can run, between 6~7'

Rear
camber -1'30"
toe in 0'02" each side, total toe 0'04"

i used to have more camber at the rear, but found the car understeer too much. I give a little toe in for the front and rear so the car is more stable on the highway.

i recommend more camber at the front, and keep -2 at the back for now if you dont' want the back to come lose too easily