Alignment settings for street/track use
04-22-2011, 05:59 PM
#352
is adjusting valve lash
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so thats where i'm working on a solution. plant the ***!
anyway... i have set to front sway on full stiff, and i kinda like the sharpened response it has on turn in. so i think this may help me more on keeping a more closer number for camber front to rear. i think it should be a good compromise... but don't think this will help with the camber thrust street driving =(
Last edited by TrochoidMagic; 04-22-2011 at 06:05 PM.
04-22-2011, 08:57 PM
#353
is adjusting valve lash
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just aligned. kinda disappointed as its not what i wanted, and caster adjustment aren't shown as its not a laser hunter machine.
before:
rear
-camber:-1.6, -1.9
-toe: 0.24, 0.30
front
-camber: -0.1, -0.5
-toe: 0.17, 0.11
after
camber: -1.3 even
toe:0.09 even
camber: 0.5 even
toe: 0.09 ( factory "centered" zero, but think its 0.08 on one side)
so what do you guys think of these? a short drive impression tells me its less rear stable and rotates to easy for my comfort. are these numbers half decent, or are they actually good numbers, and i'm the one who needs to adjust to it?
calling 40, spin, hwy... what are ur opinions of my results? the shop was close, cheap, and fast... not what i wanted. but just wanted to know if these are ok.
before:
rear
-camber:-1.6, -1.9
-toe: 0.24, 0.30
front
-camber: -0.1, -0.5
-toe: 0.17, 0.11
after
camber: -1.3 even
toe:0.09 even
camber: 0.5 even
toe: 0.09 ( factory "centered" zero, but think its 0.08 on one side)
so what do you guys think of these? a short drive impression tells me its less rear stable and rotates to easy for my comfort. are these numbers half decent, or are they actually good numbers, and i'm the one who needs to adjust to it?
calling 40, spin, hwy... what are ur opinions of my results? the shop was close, cheap, and fast... not what i wanted. but just wanted to know if these are ok.
Last edited by TrochoidMagic; 04-22-2011 at 09:00 PM.
04-23-2011, 04:25 AM
#354
04Green,
So are you saying that you get a lot of understeer with that setup asi n running your bars soft?
If that's right, I think you are following the arrows on your tire, and not putting enough air in.
I ran 44 hot front 41 hot rear which came right to the arrows up front with stock sport bar,
When I added 2 psi I could tell the tires stiffened up front, and gripped better, but my wheels are 7.5x18 38 offset with 225/40r18 Ventus.
It seems like you'd eat your arrows more, but you shouldn't have understeer with that setup.
Maybe you should stiffen up the front (even though it sounds wrong) to make the fronts bite more. ?
So are you saying that you get a lot of understeer with that setup asi n running your bars soft?
If that's right, I think you are following the arrows on your tire, and not putting enough air in.
I ran 44 hot front 41 hot rear which came right to the arrows up front with stock sport bar,
When I added 2 psi I could tell the tires stiffened up front, and gripped better, but my wheels are 7.5x18 38 offset with 225/40r18 Ventus.
It seems like you'd eat your arrows more, but you shouldn't have understeer with that setup.
Maybe you should stiffen up the front (even though it sounds wrong) to make the fronts bite more. ?
04-23-2011, 04:33 AM
#355
Trichoid,
You got the conservative camber you wanted, but if it still oversteers going around a corner (not under braking), you'll need to loosen the rear bar and or stiffen the front bar.
Getting loose under braking or acceleration can introduce other things so balance your sways steady stead cornering, then, check brakes and or rotate tires, etc.
You got the conservative camber you wanted, but if it still oversteers going around a corner (not under braking), you'll need to loosen the rear bar and or stiffen the front bar.
Getting loose under braking or acceleration can introduce other things so balance your sways steady stead cornering, then, check brakes and or rotate tires, etc.
04-23-2011, 04:50 AM
#356
so what do you guys think of these? a short drive impression tells me its less rear stable and rotates to easy for my comfort. are these numbers half decent, or are they actually good numbers, and i'm the one who needs to adjust to it?
calling 40, spin, hwy... what are ur opinions of my results? the shop was close, cheap, and fast... not what i wanted. but just wanted to know if these are ok.
calling 40, spin, hwy... what are ur opinions of my results? the shop was close, cheap, and fast... not what i wanted. but just wanted to know if these are ok.
I honestly cant see how the alignement could possible be causing the car to oversteer. Less neg camber in the front and slight toe in front and rear is an understeer setup.
You said you have the front sway bar on full stiff (Inside holes), but what is the rear? The only think you could do to tighten the car up is to loosen the rear bar if it is also on full stiff.
The only other thing I can think of is the struts. You said you are on the racing beat springs, but what struts?
04-23-2011, 07:06 AM
#357
Momentum Keeps Me Going
after
camber: -1.3 even
toe:0.09 even
camber: 0.5 even
toe: 0.09 ( factory "centered" zero, but think its 0.08 on one side)
so what do you guys think of these? a short drive impression tells me its less rear stable and rotates to easy for my comfort. are these numbers half decent, or are they actually good numbers, and i'm the one who needs to adjust to it?
calling 40, spin, hwy... what are ur opinions of my results? the shop was close, cheap, and fast... not what i wanted. but just wanted to know if these are ok.
You need someone who is experienced in using the alignment equipment, but moreover, understands that you are not ma kettle going to church, nor Mario Andretti but someone driving a sports car aggressively occassionaly and doesn't want to end up in the ditch. I would urge you to read, study, and read some more. Then find that good race shop and take the car there and explain how you want the car to behave, not so much how you want the alignment number to look.
Google is your friend, their are lots of explaination out there. Try "race car alignment", and not because you have a race car, but because the explainations you'll find will better describe the effects of alignment under serious loading, which IS something you'll likely experience. For example I'm quoting this website... http://www.bmw2002faq.com/content/view/31/32/
Originally Posted by bmw 2002 faq
"Negative camber is when the top of the tire tips inward, and positive is when it tips outward. Negative camber is necessary for good cornering performance. The main question is how much. When turning a corner the body rolls and the outside tire is forced to tip outward in relation to the road. This causes the tire to ride on it's outside edge and lose grip rather than being flat on the road. I refer to this as body roll positive camber. To maintain the best grip we would like the tire tread to remain flat on the road. To compensate for body roll camber change auto manufacturers design in some negative camber."
Now consider the situation at the rear. With little camber, as the tire leans, it goes up slightly on the outside tire edge, loosening the grip of the main contact patch. The result is noticeably LESS grip than the front, meaning the rear will rotate as it is slipping sideways while the front is not. The end result is a 'happy tail' feeling unstable in turns due to the differing grip between front and rear. NOT good obviously.
Ok, now let's check this against the shop manual alignment settings. Taking one look shows (again) how screwed you were by this shop. At one ride height spec the stock settings are ~.5 deg front camber, ~1.5 deg rear camber. Hummmm...more grip to the rear, and so understeer at the front, and so traditional "safe" handing characteristics from the camber setting. Get the idea? Your guy got it back asswards.
As we don't even know all the particulars about your other suspension setting, sway bars, etc., these add'l items and their settings may or may not be exaggerating this situation, but that's why you go to a good shop in the 1st place. They have you and the car and can decide.
Last edited by Spin9k; 04-23-2011 at 07:12 AM.
04-23-2011, 12:17 PM
#359
@ 40w8
There is a useful table on tire rack for stuff to change to address over and understeer. It is posted here someplace too. Basically, if you have too much grip on one end (in my case, the front), you want to trip the end with to much grip a little bit to let the other end catch up, you trip the front, with a little stiffer rear sway, or trip the rear, with a little stiffer front sway (lots of other ways too, I printed the page and stuck it in my track book). I tripped the front with a little stiffer rear sway bar setting. That is the beauty of adjustable sways. For details on the dynamics, read what you can find from Eric Meyer. The changes I made settled the car nicely, and also normalized front to rear left side wear, something I have never seen at Roebling.
On tire pressure, you are right. I have only been out the one time with the new sways. Towards the second day, I was bleeding tire pressure a bit at a time, and getting more grip, and going faster and faster. For the last few sessions, I just wanted to have fun and left stuff alone. I got into some slight over-rotation, not all the way to oversteer, and just slowed down on that corner instead of trying to fix it. A buddy of mine totaled his Porsche in that same spot the day before, so slowing down seemed a good idea since our only tow capable vehicle was now subscribed.
Make sense?
There is a useful table on tire rack for stuff to change to address over and understeer. It is posted here someplace too. Basically, if you have too much grip on one end (in my case, the front), you want to trip the end with to much grip a little bit to let the other end catch up, you trip the front, with a little stiffer rear sway, or trip the rear, with a little stiffer front sway (lots of other ways too, I printed the page and stuck it in my track book). I tripped the front with a little stiffer rear sway bar setting. That is the beauty of adjustable sways. For details on the dynamics, read what you can find from Eric Meyer. The changes I made settled the car nicely, and also normalized front to rear left side wear, something I have never seen at Roebling.
On tire pressure, you are right. I have only been out the one time with the new sways. Towards the second day, I was bleeding tire pressure a bit at a time, and getting more grip, and going faster and faster. For the last few sessions, I just wanted to have fun and left stuff alone. I got into some slight over-rotation, not all the way to oversteer, and just slowed down on that corner instead of trying to fix it. A buddy of mine totaled his Porsche in that same spot the day before, so slowing down seemed a good idea since our only tow capable vehicle was now subscribed.
Make sense?
04-23-2011, 01:31 PM
#360
Momentum Keeps Me Going
^ that's a good explaination green. magic, I guess I misinterpreted what the guy had done, Hwy8's correction seems to make more sense, since the guy would have had to have been crazy to setup your car that way anyway. So what is your rear bar set to if the front is set to give max understeer (stiff)?
04-23-2011, 02:12 PM
#361
Spin,
Both bars were set full soft, using the holes farthest from the bar, for the initial run. That was when I observed the understeer (and associated departure event). The change was to take the rear bar and move one of the side from the full soft position to the hard position (only 2 holes on each side, not a lot of options). I did the left side, not sure if that matters. That stiffened the rear roll resistance, and that supposedly will negatively impact the grip in the front. It worked as anticipated.
Here is the tire rack table I referred to. The table matches the Going Faster book and the posts by Eric Meyer.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...jsp?techid=58&
Just that one hole difference made a huge difference in the car. I still need to re-dial in tire pressures, but that will take another event.
Both bars were set full soft, using the holes farthest from the bar, for the initial run. That was when I observed the understeer (and associated departure event). The change was to take the rear bar and move one of the side from the full soft position to the hard position (only 2 holes on each side, not a lot of options). I did the left side, not sure if that matters. That stiffened the rear roll resistance, and that supposedly will negatively impact the grip in the front. It worked as anticipated.
Here is the tire rack table I referred to. The table matches the Going Faster book and the posts by Eric Meyer.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...jsp?techid=58&
Just that one hole difference made a huge difference in the car. I still need to re-dial in tire pressures, but that will take another event.
04-23-2011, 02:28 PM
#362
Momentum Keeps Me Going
^ If you stiffen the rear, your loose rear grip. Your car will be more tail-happy, with the result of moderating effects of understeer in the front by giving it more share of the avail grip.
It doesn't matter which side you move the bolt to the closer hole, that's just the intermediate position, with both close holes being the stiffest setting. What will happen with just one side set as you have it, is preload on the bar, which is not ideal with stock endlinks. I have the the same setup in the rear and have one adj endlink to remove the preload. Up front, where I have two holes per side, I have an offset as well, and use one adj link there too.
It doesn't matter which side you move the bolt to the closer hole, that's just the intermediate position, with both close holes being the stiffest setting. What will happen with just one side set as you have it, is preload on the bar, which is not ideal with stock endlinks. I have the the same setup in the rear and have one adj endlink to remove the preload. Up front, where I have two holes per side, I have an offset as well, and use one adj link there too.
04-23-2011, 05:49 PM
#363
@ Spin,
Yes, stiffening one end will make that end lose grip. In understeer, I need to lose some grip in the rear. I could soften the front, but it was already on full soft. I could also have set some air out of the back, to get it to roll over a little, but am really trying to make the tires last.
If I had another day to play with it, I would have looked at tire pressures. Another option is to put another half a degree of negative camber in the rear, then set the bar on full stiff. Problem is I am then out of adjustments, and that does not sound right anyway. Feels like too many opposing forces.
Or, just tweak (reduce) the tire pressure splits to ease out the very very slight oversteer. I figure a pound or 2 max. Something like 36/34 cold, target of 42/40 hot, and watch the sidewalls, times and pressures. If that works, start backing out in 1 to 2 pound increments. If I can keep the tires from rolling over, getting the pressures back might let me reset the rear bar. So many options....
Yeah, I understand about the pre-load on the rear, been toying with just setting it back for the street. Need car time for that, have not had much lately. Until you mentioned it though, I really had no idea why anyone would want adjustable end links.
On End Links:
I found these for $105, http://store.awrracing.com/products/...252d-Rear.html
I am trying to figure out if it is good or bad that I can see the bearing. It looks like the rubber will seal once you tighten it down. Just not sure..
Yes, stiffening one end will make that end lose grip. In understeer, I need to lose some grip in the rear. I could soften the front, but it was already on full soft. I could also have set some air out of the back, to get it to roll over a little, but am really trying to make the tires last.
If I had another day to play with it, I would have looked at tire pressures. Another option is to put another half a degree of negative camber in the rear, then set the bar on full stiff. Problem is I am then out of adjustments, and that does not sound right anyway. Feels like too many opposing forces.
Or, just tweak (reduce) the tire pressure splits to ease out the very very slight oversteer. I figure a pound or 2 max. Something like 36/34 cold, target of 42/40 hot, and watch the sidewalls, times and pressures. If that works, start backing out in 1 to 2 pound increments. If I can keep the tires from rolling over, getting the pressures back might let me reset the rear bar. So many options....
Yeah, I understand about the pre-load on the rear, been toying with just setting it back for the street. Need car time for that, have not had much lately. Until you mentioned it though, I really had no idea why anyone would want adjustable end links.
On End Links:
I found these for $105, http://store.awrracing.com/products/...252d-Rear.html
I am trying to figure out if it is good or bad that I can see the bearing. It looks like the rubber will seal once you tighten it down. Just not sure..
04-23-2011, 05:50 PM
#364
is adjusting valve lash
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sorry spin, hwy is right, the numbers are in the order i listed as above.
but haha, u know what, i set the front bars up wrongt... they are on the very outer edge holes, closest to the very tip of the bar, which is a softer setting than the middle, correct?
it was hard to see, so i just felt with my hands as i did the adjustments on the floor... i need to put the holes on the very inside of the bar to reduce bending leverage, increase bar twist so its a stiffer setting. hope thats correct and i get back more front grip and less rear over.
but haha, u know what, i set the front bars up wrongt... they are on the very outer edge holes, closest to the very tip of the bar, which is a softer setting than the middle, correct?
it was hard to see, so i just felt with my hands as i did the adjustments on the floor... i need to put the holes on the very inside of the bar to reduce bending leverage, increase bar twist so its a stiffer setting. hope thats correct and i get back more front grip and less rear over.
04-23-2011, 06:32 PM
#365
rev it up
Has anyone run more than -3 deg camber on the front. My front tyres wear out more on the outside edges even on -2 deg camber to the front. I usually keep the rear at around -1.5 and caster at around 6 with close to 0 toe.
I am looking at getting the control arm bushes bored at an angle so I can run much greater negative camber possibly up to -5. For street use I should be able to get close to zero camber with this method.
I am looking at getting the control arm bushes bored at an angle so I can run much greater negative camber possibly up to -5. For street use I should be able to get close to zero camber with this method.
04-23-2011, 06:35 PM
#366
Momentum Keeps Me Going
^Green, the exposed links are what's out there. That's how mine are, no problems, except I found when I had all 4 as adjustables installed (not needed, but i tried it as I had a set of 4), that I heard quite noisy clinking of the bearing as they went throught the motions. For some reason with only two, and as I put them on the passenger side, the noise isn't really noticeable.
^magic, if you tighten up the front, you'll understeer more of course, and so the front/rear grip balance will be better given you say the rear is coming round now, making the car more neutral feeling. BTW, now that I went to actually look, I have front bar stiffist both sides, and back - one stiff, one side not. Not sure how the Whitline solid bar compare to yours. But with that setup I am pretty neutral, and I adjust for slight under / over steer with my adj suspension (e-Con) on the Cusco coilovers. Full stiff on them all gets me slightly tailhappy and the to full soft on the rear is reassuringly understeering for when i want to play it safe. Very useful on track for varing conditions.
^skc, I've seen some get 3 deg front, or so they say. I too get some mild front outside wear, but it's not excessive. Other more dedicated track cars look to have far more than 2 or 3, so it does prob help. If you get a lot, it may be toe doing the damage. Also look into the mazdaspeed offset bushing for the front.
^magic, if you tighten up the front, you'll understeer more of course, and so the front/rear grip balance will be better given you say the rear is coming round now, making the car more neutral feeling. BTW, now that I went to actually look, I have front bar stiffist both sides, and back - one stiff, one side not. Not sure how the Whitline solid bar compare to yours. But with that setup I am pretty neutral, and I adjust for slight under / over steer with my adj suspension (e-Con) on the Cusco coilovers. Full stiff on them all gets me slightly tailhappy and the to full soft on the rear is reassuringly understeering for when i want to play it safe. Very useful on track for varing conditions.
^skc, I've seen some get 3 deg front, or so they say. I too get some mild front outside wear, but it's not excessive. Other more dedicated track cars look to have far more than 2 or 3, so it does prob help. If you get a lot, it may be toe doing the damage. Also look into the mazdaspeed offset bushing for the front.
04-23-2011, 10:05 PM
#367
04Green,
You're the guy that said to run a lot of air in the Ventus, but your only running 36/34 cold?
I checked my cold psi (49 deg f 40 psi front/ 38psi rear) the morning after I found what worked hot (140 deg f front 46 psi/ 120 deg f rear 43 psi).
As you can see, I've studied the psi to death, and know what to put before I get to the track.
So when people tell you they put such psi cold, it don't mean much.
I run 40 front at about 50deg f, but every 15 deg f raises the psi 1 (140-50=90/6=15deg increases psi 1).
I'm liking my 46/43, and not having any center tread wear issues.
You're the guy that said to run a lot of air in the Ventus, but your only running 36/34 cold?
I checked my cold psi (49 deg f 40 psi front/ 38psi rear) the morning after I found what worked hot (140 deg f front 46 psi/ 120 deg f rear 43 psi).
As you can see, I've studied the psi to death, and know what to put before I get to the track.
So when people tell you they put such psi cold, it don't mean much.
I run 40 front at about 50deg f, but every 15 deg f raises the psi 1 (140-50=90/6=15deg increases psi 1).
I'm liking my 46/43, and not having any center tread wear issues.
04-24-2011, 09:02 AM
#368
40w8
Before the sways I needed the pressures high to keep the tires from rolling over. I think that cost me grip, but it was the only thing I had to adjust, that pressure kept me close to the little triangles. With the sways, I am not getting anywhere near the tire roll over. I am slowly backing out pressure to get to what seems to be the right spot. I think I was shooting for 44/40 f/r, hot before the bars.
I think every car is not the same, every track surface is different and most every driver is different. All of them together make a weekend or a race. Also, we learn. I had never put 40+ psi in a tire in my life. That was incredibly high to me. Part of reading back over the old stuff led me to re-post with the newer data. The rule from the DE folks says that you want hot to be about 6 degrees over cold. But, they are Porsche guys and I am not sure that transfers.
Thinking back, another variable is that I have only run at Roebling, a 2 mile road course, that gives me a 2 mile cool down, in line to get off, drive to site, then measure tires. I could be losing psi on that run as well.
If you have a comfortable spot, (46/43 hot), go with it. The goal is to get comfortable.
Before the sways I needed the pressures high to keep the tires from rolling over. I think that cost me grip, but it was the only thing I had to adjust, that pressure kept me close to the little triangles. With the sways, I am not getting anywhere near the tire roll over. I am slowly backing out pressure to get to what seems to be the right spot. I think I was shooting for 44/40 f/r, hot before the bars.
I think every car is not the same, every track surface is different and most every driver is different. All of them together make a weekend or a race. Also, we learn. I had never put 40+ psi in a tire in my life. That was incredibly high to me. Part of reading back over the old stuff led me to re-post with the newer data. The rule from the DE folks says that you want hot to be about 6 degrees over cold. But, they are Porsche guys and I am not sure that transfers.
Thinking back, another variable is that I have only run at Roebling, a 2 mile road course, that gives me a 2 mile cool down, in line to get off, drive to site, then measure tires. I could be losing psi on that run as well.
If you have a comfortable spot, (46/43 hot), go with it. The goal is to get comfortable.
04-24-2011, 11:38 PM
#369
is adjusting valve lash
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[QUOTE=Spin9k;3955914]
^magic, if you tighten up the front, you'll understeer more of course, and so the front/rear grip balance will be better given you say the rear is coming round now, making the car more neutral feeling. BTW, now that I went to actually look, I have front bar stiffist both sides, and back - one stiff, one side not. Not sure how the Whitline solid bar compare to yours. But with that setup I am pretty neutral, and I adjust for slight under / over steer with my adj suspension (e-Con) on the Cusco coilovers. Full stiff on them all gets me slightly tailhappy and the to full soft on the rear is reassuringly understeering for when i want to play it safe. Very useful on track for varing conditions.
just got the stiffest setting on the front bar drilled out (got RB endlinks) so now i got full stiff front and soft rear with the numbers.... it does feel pretty nice so far.
thx.
^magic, if you tighten up the front, you'll understeer more of course, and so the front/rear grip balance will be better given you say the rear is coming round now, making the car more neutral feeling. BTW, now that I went to actually look, I have front bar stiffist both sides, and back - one stiff, one side not. Not sure how the Whitline solid bar compare to yours. But with that setup I am pretty neutral, and I adjust for slight under / over steer with my adj suspension (e-Con) on the Cusco coilovers. Full stiff on them all gets me slightly tailhappy and the to full soft on the rear is reassuringly understeering for when i want to play it safe. Very useful on track for varing conditions.
just got the stiffest setting on the front bar drilled out (got RB endlinks) so now i got full stiff front and soft rear with the numbers.... it does feel pretty nice so far.
thx.
04-25-2011, 12:26 AM
#370
Ride height determines max camber capability. I can get -3 deg front camber without the offset LCA bushings
Spin is also spouting a simplistic "losing rear grip" statement that ignores all the other dynamics occurring with a given setup.
.
Spin is also spouting a simplistic "losing rear grip" statement that ignores all the other dynamics occurring with a given setup.
.
Last edited by TeamRX8; 04-25-2011 at 12:31 AM.
06-05-2011, 12:17 AM
#373
I just had my RX8 lowered with Progress Tech springs (-1.2" & 205 Lbs./In Front, -0.8" & 145Lbs./In Rear) and still temporarily on stock shocks and sways. Tires are Kumho Ecsta XS' . I still need to get an alignment but not sure what specs I should go for. I do not have to put daily driving, rain, or winter into consideration for my RX8 (hence the reason I will not look into stock alignment specs), but I will be going to my first Autocross session this month. I also plan on going to a few more other AutoX sessions and one track day at Lime Rock this summer.
If you guys can give me a foundation alignment spec to base future post track time fine tuning off of, that would be greatly appreciated. I will be going for my much needed alignment within a few days from now.
If you guys can give me a foundation alignment spec to base future post track time fine tuning off of, that would be greatly appreciated. I will be going for my much needed alignment within a few days from now.
06-08-2011, 12:37 PM
#374
what do you value?
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i had my first autocross event sunday, then had my alignment checked the following day. i liked the way it drove, so i didnt have the tech change anything but change the slight front toe in to zero.
off the top of my head, new specs:
front
camber -2 degrees
toe 0
caster ?
rear
camber -2 degrees
toe-in within spec, i think around .08
my question is since this vehicle is mostly street with a couple autox thrown in, will the negative camber affect tire wear too much? they are 245/40/18 stretched on 9.5" wheels
thanks.
off the top of my head, new specs:
front
camber -2 degrees
toe 0
caster ?
rear
camber -2 degrees
toe-in within spec, i think around .08
my question is since this vehicle is mostly street with a couple autox thrown in, will the negative camber affect tire wear too much? they are 245/40/18 stretched on 9.5" wheels
thanks.
