The Truth About Cars - In Defense Of The Mazda RX8
03-17-2010, 04:41 PM
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The Truth About Cars - In Defense Of The Mazda RX8
Original Link - http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-...he-mazda-rx-8/
In Defense of: The Mazda RX-8
By Michael Karesh on September 29, 2008
A fine-handling car carries on a conversation with the tips of your fingers and the seat of your pants, and not just near the limit of adhesion. Whether the engine’s up front, in the middle or out back; whether the powerplant propels the front, rear or both wheels, a true “driver’s car” is a master of communication and balance. While many cars have been successfully marketed based on their “ultimate driving,” very few are capable of delivering such erudition. Many are downright pigs, offering nothing more than understeer followed by more understeer. As Jonny Lieberman’s review indicates, the Mazda RX-8 is not amongst them. It is an under-appreciated gem.
Only two cars in the RX-8’s price range arguably handle better: the Honda S2000 (in its final year) and Mazda’s own Miata. Neither has a rear seat or is remotely as livable as the RX-8, and the Honda is insanely expensive to insure. And i enjoy driving the RX-8 more.
While I haven’t always been a fan of Motor Trend, the October 2008 issue includes a “giant handling test” that’s well worth reading. They lead off with instrumented testing, where the RX-8 doesn’t fare well against a group that includes the Dodge Viper ACR, BMW M3, Mitsubishi Evo, Porsche 911 Turbo, Nissan GT-R and Audi R8. So I figured they were going to bury the RX-8 in their rankings.
But another part of the comparison test involves a subjective component, where professional road-racer Randy Pobst ranked the RX-8 third, behind only the $120k Audi R8 and $63k BMW M3 (the light steering apparently comes alive on the track). Ahead of even the Porsche— and Pobst races a Porsche.
In the purest sense of a sports car, the rear-drive RX-8 is the most satisfying through corners. I felt like it was a glove on my hand. I could put it right where I wanted. Extremely well balanced, easy to drift, unfettered by weight. The all-wheel-drive cars tend to understeer, and then when they do break loose it’s a big event and a lot happens. In the RX-8, on the other hand, things happen a little bit at a time. It’s just so much fun to drive. The more powerful cars feel like riding a horse. The RX-8 feels like wings bolted right to your arms.
Note that Pobst says “the most satisfying through corners,” not merely “one of the most.” I couldn’t agree more. I’ve driven an RX-8 on WV16 and OH26, two roads packed with challenging curves. It was the most satisfying driving experience I’ve ever had.
I’m aware of the arguments against the RX-8, most of which center around the rotary engine. Yes, the Wankel’s fuel economy is poor. In my experience, the car gets 15 mpg in all-out hooning mode, 17 in typical suburban driving, and 21 when cruising on the freeway. But plenty of vehicles have been sold that do worse. And the recent fuel price spike indicates that it’s not all about frugality. In the first eight months of last year, when gas prices were lower, Mazda still only shifted 4,417 RX-8s.
Next up: the lack of low-end torque. There’s a fix: downshift. Where some engines reward a downshift with a raucous fuss, the rotary begs to be revved. Sure, the RX-8 doesn’t launch strongly, but once underway on a winding road, power is not an issue. I’ll grant that there’s a certain adolescent thrill to rocketing oneself and 3,500+ pounds of metal and plastic forward by merely pressing down on a pedal. But is this really what performance driving has devolved to?
Apparently so. Mazda developed a unique engine and chassis for the RX-8— bits not shared with a midsize sedan. They’re offering a lightweight car with outstanding handling and a livable ride. They even toss a usable rear seat into the deal, AND an amazingly low price for a bespoke low-volume car (under $30k new, under $20k used with low miles). And yet Mazda sold just 2,591 RX-8s in the first eight months of 2008.
The unavoidable implication: handling simply isn’t a high priority for more than a few thousand people a year. When driving enthusiasts have to choose between handling and torque, nearly all of them choose torque. This certainly lets a lot of other manufacturers off the hook; torque is much easier to provide than communicative steering and a finely-balanced chassis. Just drop a powerful engine into a sexy-looking car (e.g. any of the new wave V8 muscle cars), and sales will follow.
In the future, when electric motors drive the wheels and steering is via wire, the torque temptation will only increase. Electric motors can certainly deliver low-end grunt, so few people will mind that any steering feel these vehicles provide will be entirely artificial. My advice to those with limited budgets who really care about handling, whose driving isn’t all in a straight line: buy a Mazda RX-8 while you still can.
In Defense of: The Mazda RX-8
By Michael Karesh on September 29, 2008
A fine-handling car carries on a conversation with the tips of your fingers and the seat of your pants, and not just near the limit of adhesion. Whether the engine’s up front, in the middle or out back; whether the powerplant propels the front, rear or both wheels, a true “driver’s car” is a master of communication and balance. While many cars have been successfully marketed based on their “ultimate driving,” very few are capable of delivering such erudition. Many are downright pigs, offering nothing more than understeer followed by more understeer. As Jonny Lieberman’s review indicates, the Mazda RX-8 is not amongst them. It is an under-appreciated gem.
Only two cars in the RX-8’s price range arguably handle better: the Honda S2000 (in its final year) and Mazda’s own Miata. Neither has a rear seat or is remotely as livable as the RX-8, and the Honda is insanely expensive to insure. And i enjoy driving the RX-8 more.
While I haven’t always been a fan of Motor Trend, the October 2008 issue includes a “giant handling test” that’s well worth reading. They lead off with instrumented testing, where the RX-8 doesn’t fare well against a group that includes the Dodge Viper ACR, BMW M3, Mitsubishi Evo, Porsche 911 Turbo, Nissan GT-R and Audi R8. So I figured they were going to bury the RX-8 in their rankings.
But another part of the comparison test involves a subjective component, where professional road-racer Randy Pobst ranked the RX-8 third, behind only the $120k Audi R8 and $63k BMW M3 (the light steering apparently comes alive on the track). Ahead of even the Porsche— and Pobst races a Porsche.
In the purest sense of a sports car, the rear-drive RX-8 is the most satisfying through corners. I felt like it was a glove on my hand. I could put it right where I wanted. Extremely well balanced, easy to drift, unfettered by weight. The all-wheel-drive cars tend to understeer, and then when they do break loose it’s a big event and a lot happens. In the RX-8, on the other hand, things happen a little bit at a time. It’s just so much fun to drive. The more powerful cars feel like riding a horse. The RX-8 feels like wings bolted right to your arms.
Note that Pobst says “the most satisfying through corners,” not merely “one of the most.” I couldn’t agree more. I’ve driven an RX-8 on WV16 and OH26, two roads packed with challenging curves. It was the most satisfying driving experience I’ve ever had.
I’m aware of the arguments against the RX-8, most of which center around the rotary engine. Yes, the Wankel’s fuel economy is poor. In my experience, the car gets 15 mpg in all-out hooning mode, 17 in typical suburban driving, and 21 when cruising on the freeway. But plenty of vehicles have been sold that do worse. And the recent fuel price spike indicates that it’s not all about frugality. In the first eight months of last year, when gas prices were lower, Mazda still only shifted 4,417 RX-8s.
Next up: the lack of low-end torque. There’s a fix: downshift. Where some engines reward a downshift with a raucous fuss, the rotary begs to be revved. Sure, the RX-8 doesn’t launch strongly, but once underway on a winding road, power is not an issue. I’ll grant that there’s a certain adolescent thrill to rocketing oneself and 3,500+ pounds of metal and plastic forward by merely pressing down on a pedal. But is this really what performance driving has devolved to?
Apparently so. Mazda developed a unique engine and chassis for the RX-8— bits not shared with a midsize sedan. They’re offering a lightweight car with outstanding handling and a livable ride. They even toss a usable rear seat into the deal, AND an amazingly low price for a bespoke low-volume car (under $30k new, under $20k used with low miles). And yet Mazda sold just 2,591 RX-8s in the first eight months of 2008.
The unavoidable implication: handling simply isn’t a high priority for more than a few thousand people a year. When driving enthusiasts have to choose between handling and torque, nearly all of them choose torque. This certainly lets a lot of other manufacturers off the hook; torque is much easier to provide than communicative steering and a finely-balanced chassis. Just drop a powerful engine into a sexy-looking car (e.g. any of the new wave V8 muscle cars), and sales will follow.
In the future, when electric motors drive the wheels and steering is via wire, the torque temptation will only increase. Electric motors can certainly deliver low-end grunt, so few people will mind that any steering feel these vehicles provide will be entirely artificial. My advice to those with limited budgets who really care about handling, whose driving isn’t all in a straight line: buy a Mazda RX-8 while you still can.
03-18-2010, 01:29 AM
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Good read, articles like this certainly resonate with me. Way too many people are too concern with spec sheets, horsepower and torque. Maybe I'm just aging faster than most, which would seem to validate the author's opinion on the matter,
I've said it before and I'll say it once more, sometimes I feel like the car was custom made for me - I'm only 5'6"/180lbs - so I fit fine with plenty of room for my wife, daughter and her gear. I am grateful for what it has and what it doesn't. It's void of overcomplicated electronics and overprotective nannies. I think the simplistic, almost Zen like approach of less is more that Mazda took with this car is what makes it so special. The visceral connection it provides to the driver - mature enough to realize it - is what keep him hooked and in the end rewards him with a big grin planted on his face.
I go on many drives around where I live quite often, seems the baby likes to sleep in the car better. Granted, I'm not hitting every apex at the limit of adhesion every time, and quite honestly,I don't mind. I know that if I wanted -and didn't have the baby in the car sleeping- I could have the ******* in the IS300 and his dumb *** friend in the mustang tailgating me.
I’ll grant that there’s a certain adolescent thrill to rocketing oneself and 3,500+ pounds of metal and plastic forward by merely pressing down on a pedal
I go on many drives around where I live quite often, seems the baby likes to sleep in the car better. Granted, I'm not hitting every apex at the limit of adhesion every time, and quite honestly,I don't mind. I know that if I wanted -and didn't have the baby in the car sleeping- I could have the ******* in the IS300 and his dumb *** friend in the mustang tailgating me.
03-18-2010, 06:52 AM
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03-18-2010, 08:06 AM
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If you like this review, you should also read the review of the R3 at the same site. Articles like this plus my own drive of the R3 is why I think the RX-8 (and the R3 in particular) are in the practical sports car category which is populated by just two other vehicles: the Cayman and the Lotus Evora. Think about it, what other true sports cars are out there with any practical amount of storage space or sophistication??? No the Elise or Exige, not the Miata or S2000. This is the list is you really value handling with some modicum of practicality.
03-18-2010, 12:02 PM
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I agree with everything that articles mentions about handling and driving characteristics but I still thing the car is underpowered or at least under torqued. The car would be great with a turbo just for the torque increase. If you really read through the lines the author even comes to the conclusion that power (hp/torque) is a hot commodity. Here's an idea, why not have both. Right now the 8 is heavily balanced more towards handling/ride but not much grunt particularly in the low end. I'm not talking 100 more hp. If the current iteration had a small turbo making say 270 hp and 220 ft lbs the car would be a whole lot more enjoyable.
I love my 8. I love it enough that it's been sitting at home for the past 5 months while I save up enough money to replace the engine at 130,000 miles over my wife's insistence that I get rid of her. I love driving it that much
As far as sales go, the rotary is the reason there. People don't know enough or trust the rotary and thus many won't even give it a try. I do think if it didn't have reliability issues they would sell more. If Mazda could make it more powerful, more reliable and more fuel efficient it would be the best car out there. It's already close.
I love my 8. I love it enough that it's been sitting at home for the past 5 months while I save up enough money to replace the engine at 130,000 miles over my wife's insistence that I get rid of her. I love driving it that much
As far as sales go, the rotary is the reason there. People don't know enough or trust the rotary and thus many won't even give it a try. I do think if it didn't have reliability issues they would sell more. If Mazda could make it more powerful, more reliable and more fuel efficient it would be the best car out there. It's already close.
03-18-2010, 12:50 PM
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Lack of reliability is more public perception than actual reality. The car got a bad rep from the problems in MY 2004-05. My research indicates that there were far fewer problems after those two years. The extensive mechanical changes in MY 2009 should completely eliminate reliability issues. The major complaint for MY 2009-10 is sticky transmission issues, particularly when the car is cold.
With the changes made in MY 2009, I would think the RX-8 would be sorted out enough for a low boost turbo. But poor fuel economy is a major complaint about the car already and a turbo will only make for worse gas mileage. I can see how Mazda could come to the conclusion that the current car is a lost cause and just focus on a brand new RX car with a completely new engine. It would have been really nice if Mazda offerred a final Mazdaspeed version of the RX-8 with a turbo. The show for the RX-8 looks like it will be closing without any such model. Mazda is offerring $5500 rebate just to clear out the remaining MY 2009 inventory which is good until the end of March. Last month, the rebate was $5000 and Mazda sold less than 80 RX-8s nationwide. The current car is toast. RIP
With the changes made in MY 2009, I would think the RX-8 would be sorted out enough for a low boost turbo. But poor fuel economy is a major complaint about the car already and a turbo will only make for worse gas mileage. I can see how Mazda could come to the conclusion that the current car is a lost cause and just focus on a brand new RX car with a completely new engine. It would have been really nice if Mazda offerred a final Mazdaspeed version of the RX-8 with a turbo. The show for the RX-8 looks like it will be closing without any such model. Mazda is offerring $5500 rebate just to clear out the remaining MY 2009 inventory which is good until the end of March. Last month, the rebate was $5000 and Mazda sold less than 80 RX-8s nationwide. The current car is toast. RIP
03-18-2010, 01:26 PM
#13
^ Since the intercooler associated with FI provides a cooler charge even when not in boost, it is actually more fuel efficient when driving moderately.
Mazda: give us a Mazdaspeed RX-8 in 2012 if you're not planning to move forward with the 16X! I'd order one right now!!
Mazda: give us a Mazdaspeed RX-8 in 2012 if you're not planning to move forward with the 16X! I'd order one right now!!
03-19-2010, 10:11 AM
#17
Totally agree. I am 60 yrs of age. Been around cars all my life. Been around all forms of racing since i was 9 yrs old. I have owned over 30+ cars. All types, all kinds of modifications.
The RX8 is one of a kind.
I added the pettit kit and it totally changed the car. But then again it didnt change it. Understand?
i dropped the 09 trans in (mine was built in jul/03) and i am getting 25 mpg on the road and around 17 in town/suburban. Tires and brakes last a long time. I haul 8ft lumber in it with all windows and doors shut. I have had a family of 4 (2 adults and 2 teenagers) on vacation with plenty of room. At the track the drivers/passengers seat lie down and form a perfect single bed when the back seats are removed(easy to do).
The car is very easy to work on -items are reachable.
I was going to sell it at one time but my family begged me not too.
Its the only car i have ever owned in which i turn the stero off just to listen to the engine.
I STILL turn around to look at it after parking and walking away.
It is a gem---to bad didnt get it totally right until 09. The damage was done.
olddragger
The RX8 is one of a kind.
I added the pettit kit and it totally changed the car. But then again it didnt change it. Understand?
i dropped the 09 trans in (mine was built in jul/03) and i am getting 25 mpg on the road and around 17 in town/suburban. Tires and brakes last a long time. I haul 8ft lumber in it with all windows and doors shut. I have had a family of 4 (2 adults and 2 teenagers) on vacation with plenty of room. At the track the drivers/passengers seat lie down and form a perfect single bed when the back seats are removed(easy to do).
The car is very easy to work on -items are reachable.
I was going to sell it at one time but my family begged me not too.
Its the only car i have ever owned in which i turn the stero off just to listen to the engine.
I STILL turn around to look at it after parking and walking away.
It is a gem---to bad didnt get it totally right until 09. The damage was done.
olddragger
03-19-2010, 12:41 PM
#18
Londons Yellow Peril
I'm with you OD. Ihavent had a lOAD of cars but a fair few and lots of different kinds (inlcuding a 7.5 litre Jensen interceptor MKIII) and have driven some 'marque' cars such as Porsche etc for comparisons. The 8 is such a good all around package. And great looking too!
03-19-2010, 03:28 PM
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I just finished reading the R3 review and this closing line made me chuckle:
Priceless.
Source
I’m not saying that the RX-8 R3 handles well for a $32k car. I’m saying it handles better than a $320k car. Or, more importantly, whatever you’re driving.
Priceless.
Source
03-26-2010, 07:32 PM
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Man that is an awesome article. The amount of bad publicity about the reliability is just retarded. All it took me was a bit of research to realize that there are few, if any other cars I'd rather own.
-Alex
-Alex
03-27-2010, 04:38 AM
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Lack of reliability is more public perception than actual reality. The car got a bad rep from the problems in MY 2004-05. My research indicates that there were far fewer problems after those two years. The extensive mechanical changes in MY 2009 should completely eliminate reliability issues. The major complaint for MY 2009-10 is sticky transmission issues, particularly when the car is cold.
With the changes made in MY 2009, I would think the RX-8 would be sorted out enough for a low boost turbo. But poor fuel economy is a major complaint about the car already and a turbo will only make for worse gas mileage. I can see how Mazda could come to the conclusion that the current car is a lost cause and just focus on a brand new RX car with a completely new engine. It would have been really nice if Mazda offerred a final Mazdaspeed version of the RX-8 with a turbo. The show for the RX-8 looks like it will be closing without any such model. Mazda is offerring $5500 rebate just to clear out the remaining MY 2009 inventory which is good until the end of March. Last month, the rebate was $5000 and Mazda sold less than 80 RX-8s nationwide. The current car is toast. RIP
With the changes made in MY 2009, I would think the RX-8 would be sorted out enough for a low boost turbo. But poor fuel economy is a major complaint about the car already and a turbo will only make for worse gas mileage. I can see how Mazda could come to the conclusion that the current car is a lost cause and just focus on a brand new RX car with a completely new engine. It would have been really nice if Mazda offerred a final Mazdaspeed version of the RX-8 with a turbo. The show for the RX-8 looks like it will be closing without any such model. Mazda is offerring $5500 rebate just to clear out the remaining MY 2009 inventory which is good until the end of March. Last month, the rebate was $5000 and Mazda sold less than 80 RX-8s nationwide. The current car is toast. RIP
Then again, joe public is slow to forget things... they still think Domino's Pizza is free after 30 minutes and all diesel cars are slow noisy and smoky.
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