RX8 handles better than a $302k car
12-31-2008, 01:48 PM
#30
RX-8 = Japanese MG
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However, there are a lot of people who would like the RX-8 to have more horsepower and torque in order to have a great time with it.
Who is right and who is wrong? Both. Neither.
In this country (USA), the fat part of the market expects a $30k sports car to have at least as much power as, say, the Mazdaspeed 3, not less.
If Mazda had a version of this car running 1/2 bar of boost from the factory then maybe they wouldn't need to offer $3.5k incentives to clear them off the lot every year.
Since Mazda is in the car-selling business, wouldn't it be smart for them to be able to sell these cars without deep discounts so they and their dealers can defend their margins?
12-31-2008, 03:59 PM
#31
If Mazda had thought they could profit by offering a turbo 8 from the factory, I'm sure they would have. It sounds like they are having to replace too many engines as it is.
Besides, turbos would add a lot to the cost of the 8, and possibly price it out of the market. Why buy a Mazda when you can afford a BMW or Porsche? Look what happened to the FD.
Besides, turbos would add a lot to the cost of the 8, and possibly price it out of the market. Why buy a Mazda when you can afford a BMW or Porsche? Look what happened to the FD.
12-31-2008, 05:21 PM
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Correct, YOU don't need a reasonable power/weight ratio to have a great time behind the wheel.
However, there are a lot of people who would like the RX-8 to have more horsepower and torque in order to have a great time with it.
Who is right and who is wrong? Both. Neither.
In this country (USA), the fat part of the market expects a $30k sports car to have at least as much power as, say, the Mazdaspeed 3, not less.
If Mazda had a version of this car running 1/2 bar of boost from the factory then maybe they wouldn't need to offer $3.5k incentives to clear them off the lot every year.
Since Mazda is in the car-selling business, wouldn't it be smart for them to be able to sell these cars without deep discounts so they and their dealers can defend their margins?
However, there are a lot of people who would like the RX-8 to have more horsepower and torque in order to have a great time with it.
Who is right and who is wrong? Both. Neither.
In this country (USA), the fat part of the market expects a $30k sports car to have at least as much power as, say, the Mazdaspeed 3, not less.
If Mazda had a version of this car running 1/2 bar of boost from the factory then maybe they wouldn't need to offer $3.5k incentives to clear them off the lot every year.
Since Mazda is in the car-selling business, wouldn't it be smart for them to be able to sell these cars without deep discounts so they and their dealers can defend their margins?
1) Cost. It would have raised the cost of the vehicle significantly. After the high price of the RX-7, they wanted to offer a competitively priced sports car at a lower market. All sorts of customers get interested when you aren't competing for dollars at the BMW, Porsche, etc level.
2) Reliability. Mazda got burned badly by the reliability of the turboed RX-7s. A lot of this was because of the poorly thought out heat control, sequential turbos, and 30+ rubber tubes in the engine bay. Regardless though, they weren't likely to be eager to jump into another situation of eating the cost of blown engines and burnt out turbos. Considering the issues with the NA Renesis I don't think anybody at Mazda is saying, "Gee, we really should have crammed a fvckton more air and heat into that motor!"
3) Output. Sure a stock turbo setup could have generated more power, probably enough to shut up most complaints, but Mazda was comparing the RX-8 output to the previous generation of RX-7s. The stock RX-7 generated similar HP numbers to the NA motor in the 8 with a lot more issues. If Mazda could get around the same output as their older car with more reliability, lower price, and more features they probably figured it was for the best.
4) Design. The RX-8 has a totally different design philosophy from the RX-7 and many of the cars that it is eroneously compared to. Sure there are 2-seater piston cars that are in the same ballpark of price and have higher numbers (0-60 times, peak HP) but consider the fact that the RX-8 is neither a souped up econo-box sedan with a huge turbo slapped on, nor a purpose built hands down sports car. The 2+2 doors and seats opened up a lot of options for drivers with families (or friends) at the cost of some weight. The RX-8 is most frequently compared to cars like the 350Z and S2000 which are explicitly designed as a 2-seater sports car. The RX8 is a car "with all the practicality of a sedan and none of the tedium."
5) Truth. The numbers that people compare online don't tell the full story about the car. Despite relatively weak peak HP numbers and not awe inspiring 0-60 times the car makes up for many of it's weaknesses by being fast as hell in the bends and although low on torque the torque curve is very flat making it faster than it gets credit for. Then there is the real issue with the car. When you have actually driven it, there is one thing you take away from it. The car is FUN. Everything from the Jetson's car sound to the tight steering/handling to the ability to throw 3 friends in and go for a trip if you need to. The car does it's best to be everything a sports car for the street should be. Would more power be a bad thing? Of course not, which is why I'm turbocharging mine (lol) but I don't have any illusions as to why Mazda didn't do so in the first place. My hope for Mazda is that they do decide in the future the time is right to make a more purpose built 2-seater, 2-door turbocharged rotary car. I will buy it, but it doesn't take away from what a great car the RX-8 is.
12-31-2008, 06:42 PM
#36
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People with too much money? Seriously? The car is 32,600 which is nearly exactly the same price as the GT. Now, if you think the GT is too much, fine. The R3 sounds kinda like a bargain to me though. Those Recaros, Bilsteins and 19s (plus tire) aftermaket would be quite a pretty penny if installed to a sport. Plus the Bose, bluetooth, keyless, spoiler, under spoiler and suddenly you think, bargain?
12-31-2008, 07:25 PM
#37
Huge hole is huge
People with too much money? Seriously? The car is 32,600 which is nearly exactly the same price as the GT. Now, if you think the GT is too much, fine. The R3 sounds kinda like a bargain to me though. Those Recaros, Bilsteins and 19s (plus tire) aftermaket would be quite a pretty penny if installed to a sport. Plus the Bose, bluetooth, keyless, spoiler, under spoiler and suddenly you think, bargain?
12-31-2008, 07:43 PM
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kittens arent that defenseless. try stuffing one in the kitten reservoir under the hood without gloves on and see what happens to ya. 
okay, baby kittens aside, people aren't really missinformed as much as they are just stupid. they only remember the bad things they hear about rotaries, and the people that tell them the bad things are ignorant owners. so i guess that sounds dumb...yes people are missinformed, but they never see that the problem is between the seat and the steering wheel like it often is. When i was looking to buy my rx8, my dad wanted me to do my research before i traded in my mild mannered mitsubishi for a sports car (which i already did but they weren't satisfied with hours and hours of reading and talking to the mechs at the mazda dealer i work at) and said i should call one of our neighbours who used to own one. this guy swore up and down that they are junk and undriveable in the winter. he said "I HAD to get winter tires for it or it wouldnt even go anywhere in the snow". i actually laughed out loud when he said that. then he said the stupid thing flooded at least twice a winter. I though i would give him the benefit of the doubt before i assumed it was his fault (this was an 04 he had in 2005 so they weren't quite what they are today). then he goes on to tell me all he did was move it out of the driveway and then it wouldnt start. THEY EXPLAIN TO YOU AFTER YOUR FIRST FLOODING INCIDENT WHAT NOT TO DO! the service advisors at our place even have a hand out from mazda that they give all RX8 owners for winter driving tips. anyways, its fools like that that give teh car a bad name. because he wouldnt listen and the cars reputation paid for it. he goes around telling people it burns oil and it floods all the time because hes too lazy or foolish to read the 1/2 page of "to the point" owners information. as for the handling, i love my 8s handling...cant wait to see how much better after the winter when i do shocks and springs on it.
Greg
okay, baby kittens aside, people aren't really missinformed as much as they are just stupid. they only remember the bad things they hear about rotaries, and the people that tell them the bad things are ignorant owners. so i guess that sounds dumb...yes people are missinformed, but they never see that the problem is between the seat and the steering wheel like it often is. When i was looking to buy my rx8, my dad wanted me to do my research before i traded in my mild mannered mitsubishi for a sports car (which i already did but they weren't satisfied with hours and hours of reading and talking to the mechs at the mazda dealer i work at) and said i should call one of our neighbours who used to own one. this guy swore up and down that they are junk and undriveable in the winter. he said "I HAD to get winter tires for it or it wouldnt even go anywhere in the snow". i actually laughed out loud when he said that. then he said the stupid thing flooded at least twice a winter. I though i would give him the benefit of the doubt before i assumed it was his fault (this was an 04 he had in 2005 so they weren't quite what they are today). then he goes on to tell me all he did was move it out of the driveway and then it wouldnt start. THEY EXPLAIN TO YOU AFTER YOUR FIRST FLOODING INCIDENT WHAT NOT TO DO! the service advisors at our place even have a hand out from mazda that they give all RX8 owners for winter driving tips. anyways, its fools like that that give teh car a bad name. because he wouldnt listen and the cars reputation paid for it. he goes around telling people it burns oil and it floods all the time because hes too lazy or foolish to read the 1/2 page of "to the point" owners information. as for the handling, i love my 8s handling...cant wait to see how much better after the winter when i do shocks and springs on it.
Greg
01-01-2009, 02:13 AM
#39
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kittens arent that defenseless. try stuffing one in the kitten reservoir under the hood without gloves on and see what happens to ya.
okay, baby kittens aside, people aren't really missinformed as much as they are just stupid. they only remember the bad things they hear about rotaries, and the people that tell them the bad things are ignorant owners. so i guess that sounds dumb...yes people are missinformed, but they never see that the problem is between the seat and the steering wheel like it often is. When i was looking to buy my rx8, my dad wanted me to do my research before i traded in my mild mannered mitsubishi for a sports car (which i already did but they weren't satisfied with hours and hours of reading and talking to the mechs at the mazda dealer i work at) and said i should call one of our neighbours who used to own one. this guy swore up and down that they are junk and undriveable in the winter. he said "I HAD to get winter tires for it or it wouldnt even go anywhere in the snow". i actually laughed out loud when he said that. then he said the stupid thing flooded at least twice a winter. I though i would give him the benefit of the doubt before i assumed it was his fault (this was an 04 he had in 2005 so they weren't quite what they are today). then he goes on to tell me all he did was move it out of the driveway and then it wouldnt start. THEY EXPLAIN TO YOU AFTER YOUR FIRST FLOODING INCIDENT WHAT NOT TO DO! the service advisors at our place even have a hand out from mazda that they give all RX8 owners for winter driving tips. anyways, its fools like that that give teh car a bad name. because he wouldnt listen and the cars reputation paid for it. he goes around telling people it burns oil and it floods all the time because hes too lazy or foolish to read the 1/2 page of "to the point" owners information. as for the handling, i love my 8s handling...cant wait to see how much better after the winter when i do shocks and springs on it.
Greg
okay, baby kittens aside, people aren't really missinformed as much as they are just stupid. they only remember the bad things they hear about rotaries, and the people that tell them the bad things are ignorant owners. so i guess that sounds dumb...yes people are missinformed, but they never see that the problem is between the seat and the steering wheel like it often is. When i was looking to buy my rx8, my dad wanted me to do my research before i traded in my mild mannered mitsubishi for a sports car (which i already did but they weren't satisfied with hours and hours of reading and talking to the mechs at the mazda dealer i work at) and said i should call one of our neighbours who used to own one. this guy swore up and down that they are junk and undriveable in the winter. he said "I HAD to get winter tires for it or it wouldnt even go anywhere in the snow". i actually laughed out loud when he said that. then he said the stupid thing flooded at least twice a winter. I though i would give him the benefit of the doubt before i assumed it was his fault (this was an 04 he had in 2005 so they weren't quite what they are today). then he goes on to tell me all he did was move it out of the driveway and then it wouldnt start. THEY EXPLAIN TO YOU AFTER YOUR FIRST FLOODING INCIDENT WHAT NOT TO DO! the service advisors at our place even have a hand out from mazda that they give all RX8 owners for winter driving tips. anyways, its fools like that that give teh car a bad name. because he wouldnt listen and the cars reputation paid for it. he goes around telling people it burns oil and it floods all the time because hes too lazy or foolish to read the 1/2 page of "to the point" owners information. as for the handling, i love my 8s handling...cant wait to see how much better after the winter when i do shocks and springs on it.
Greg
01-01-2009, 08:17 AM
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those are the two funniest lines ive ever read. haha.
ya, see i sort of need my dads blessing when buying a car. If i dont have his approval, if anything goes wrong at all, i get in an accident, the engine dies, anything, he wont help me at all. also, my dad has been in the car business for years. he may not know everything about maintaning a rotary engine, but he has bought and sold hundreds of cars over his lifetime (including a few rx7s for a project that hasnt been completed) so he knows when a car has been taken care of, or when its been beaten and covered up. when i told him what my neighbor said, he said "sounds like he wasnt taking care of his car". too bad most people didnt think like my dad. the 8s would sell like hotcakes if people didnt focus on the few bad things about the car and realized all the positives.
Greg
01-01-2009, 12:16 PM
#41
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The 8 will never get the general understanding and appreciating that it should from non-owners until they begin to see that a car is more than an appliance.
I get tons of crap at work, nearly every day, because all my co-workers see is "young guy + sports car + new england = retarded." Not a single one of them sees a car as anything other than a "point a to point b" appliance. Literally. The only opinion from one car to the next is warranty, safety, and how comfortable the couch is to sit on.
Part of me wants them to wake up one day and see that driving can be fun, driving can have legitimate passion to it, and if you spend 1/5th of your life in a car, why not let yourself spend that time enjoyably?
But then they might buy an 8, and I enjoy being the only 8 in sight for months on end.
So instead, I just nurture an unhealthy elitist superiority attitude, and look down on the cattle being led around by the nose by such poor influences as hyped media and gossip.
And I laugh.
I get tons of crap at work, nearly every day, because all my co-workers see is "young guy + sports car + new england = retarded." Not a single one of them sees a car as anything other than a "point a to point b" appliance. Literally. The only opinion from one car to the next is warranty, safety, and how comfortable the couch is to sit on.
Part of me wants them to wake up one day and see that driving can be fun, driving can have legitimate passion to it, and if you spend 1/5th of your life in a car, why not let yourself spend that time enjoyably?
But then they might buy an 8, and I enjoy being the only 8 in sight for months on end.
So instead, I just nurture an unhealthy elitist superiority attitude, and look down on the cattle being led around by the nose by such poor influences as hyped media and gossip.
And I laugh.
01-01-2009, 03:20 PM
#43
RX-8 = Japanese MG
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The 8 will never get the general understanding and appreciating that it should from non-owners until they begin to see that a car is more than an appliance.
I get tons of crap at work, nearly every day, because all my co-workers see is "young guy + sports car + new england = retarded." Not a single one of them sees a car as anything other than a "point a to point b" appliance. Literally. The only opinion from one car to the next is warranty, safety, and how comfortable the couch is to sit on.
Part of me wants them to wake up one day and see that driving can be fun, driving can have legitimate passion to it, and if you spend 1/5th of your life in a car, why not let yourself spend that time enjoyably?
But then they might buy an 8, and I enjoy being the only 8 in sight for months on end.
So instead, I just nurture an unhealthy elitist superiority attitude, and look down on the cattle being led around by the nose by such poor influences as hyped media and gossip.
And I laugh.
I get tons of crap at work, nearly every day, because all my co-workers see is "young guy + sports car + new england = retarded." Not a single one of them sees a car as anything other than a "point a to point b" appliance. Literally. The only opinion from one car to the next is warranty, safety, and how comfortable the couch is to sit on.
Part of me wants them to wake up one day and see that driving can be fun, driving can have legitimate passion to it, and if you spend 1/5th of your life in a car, why not let yourself spend that time enjoyably?
But then they might buy an 8, and I enjoy being the only 8 in sight for months on end.
So instead, I just nurture an unhealthy elitist superiority attitude, and look down on the cattle being led around by the nose by such poor influences as hyped media and gossip.
And I laugh.
It may not awaken their passions but will accomplish the worthy goals of (a) scaring the beejeezus outta them and (b) convincing them you're a total nutter and not amenable to reasoned arguments about 'automobile as appliance'.
We live for only a little time and are dead forever. Therefore, the wise live with maximal intensity.
01-01-2009, 06:21 PM
#45
5) Truth. The numbers that people compare online don't tell the full story about the car. Despite relatively weak peak HP numbers and not awe inspiring 0-60 times the car makes up for many of it's weaknesses by being fast as hell in the bends and although low on torque the torque curve is very flat making it faster than it gets credit for. Then there is the real issue with the car. When you have actually driven it, there is one thing you take away from it. The car is FUN. Everything from the Jetson's car sound to the tight steering/handling to the ability to throw 3 friends in and go for a trip if you need to. The car does it's best to be everything a sports car for the street should be. Would more power be a bad thing? Of course not, which is why I'm turbocharging mine (lol) but I don't have any illusions as to why Mazda didn't do so in the first place. My hope for Mazda is that they do decide in the future the time is right to make a more purpose built 2-seater, 2-door turbocharged rotary car. I will buy it, but it doesn't take away from what a great car the RX-8 is.
01-02-2009, 02:59 AM
#46
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01-02-2009, 08:43 AM
#47
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Take those bloodless gits for a ride in a turbocharged RX-8 and make sure the traction control is turned off.
It may not awaken their passions but will accomplish the worthy goals of (a) scaring the beejeezus outta them and (b) convincing them you're a total nutter and not amenable to reasoned arguments about 'automobile as appliance'.
We live for only a little time and are dead forever. Therefore, the wise live with maximal intensity.
It may not awaken their passions but will accomplish the worthy goals of (a) scaring the beejeezus outta them and (b) convincing them you're a total nutter and not amenable to reasoned arguments about 'automobile as appliance'.
We live for only a little time and are dead forever. Therefore, the wise live with maximal intensity.
Nice quote though.
01-02-2009, 12:51 PM
#49
RX-8 = Japanese MG
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No, still looking for a "cost effective" replacement. Still, just snow tires on the rear it moves around in the snow fine, I just keep speed way down to keep the front end under control. In the blizzard Wednesday up here, >25mph and I could feel the front tires skating across the snow. Only trouble I had though was when 4 state snow plows left a 2ft wall of snow across the road in front of me. Another plow hit that ~30 seconds later so I didn't pop my air-bags trying to power through it
Actually, I have already accomplished A and B, with a rented mobile couch
Nice quote though.
Actually, I have already accomplished A and B, with a rented mobile couch
Nice quote though.
01-02-2009, 04:35 PM
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Speaking of rented mobile couches... when is the next time you are coming down Worms? We also need to plan a Spring visit that you can drive your 8 down so we can go corner carving during nice weather. We haven't had a chance to go driving at the same time since the wedding. You can come hang out and make fun of my carbon fiber strakes and carbon fiber shift **** cap. :P