ccd

I hoped we might see some official news from Mazda at the Detroit Auto Show since the R3 was announced there two years ago. But no such luck. My suspicion is that Mazda is sitting on the fence.

The rumor of a $25k rotary is a prescription for disaster. IMHO, Mazda needs to accept that the RX cars are statement/branding cars. If they break even, you are doing well. In that vein, Mazda should keep the RX-8 with the suicide doors for the simple reason that it shows the rotary to its greatest advantage. To see my point, answer this question: how many true sports cars have a back seat at all, let alone one where adults could actually fit???

If I were in charge of this project at Mazda, I would try to bring out the new car with the existing Renesis engine for one reason: the engine is well sorted out by now. One of the continuing raps against the rotary is reliability. I don't think this is actually true, but the public perception is there.

The second thing I would do is try to get the car's weight down to around 2500 lbs and bump the hp of the exiting engine to 250 hp. Take 500-600 lbs off the RX-8, and 250 hp becomes more than adequate.

Lastly, I would move the car up market, probabably around $40k. Part of that move will be dictated by the weight reduction, which will get expensive.

If this sounds ridiculous, take the Lotus Evora which weighs around 3100 lbs and has a toyota engine making around 275 hp with a joke for a back seat. Starting pricing is over $70k. By comparison, a 250 hp, 2500lb RX-8 with a real back seat for $40k would be a bargain.

77mjd

Mazda will not be able to sell a rotary car at 40k, and you'd be hard pressed to get the kind of weight reduction you are talking about while keeping a back seat. Only solution in that regard might be a lot of carbon fiber which could push the price over 40K.

ccd

You may very well be right. But consider that there are other automakers which are making vehicles much more expensive than the rest of their line. For example, the Nissan GT-R.

Carbon fiber did cross my mind as I wrote the post and I know it gets expensive, which is why I suggested $40k. But it could be more.

If you go to other sites, the same issues are raised time and again: lack of engine reliability, lack of torque, lack of HP, poor gas mileage for the hp generated. The reliability issues tend to be raised by people who have never owned the car. My impression is that engine failures have been rare since the '04-05 model years. But the perception persists. This issue argues strongly for the existing engine as it is fully sorted out after 7 years.

The only way to minimize the related issues of hp/torque/gas mileage is to take a page out of Lotus' book, significantly reduce the weight of the car and see where this leaves you in terms of pricing. Otherwise, Mazda will have to wait until the problems with the 16x engine are sorted out.

Mazda is at a crossroad with the current RX-8. Sales numbers show this car is dying on the vine. I would be surprised if the 2010 RX-8 is not the last year for the current RX-8. Mazda needs to do more than a mild model refresh as was done for the '09 model. Mazda needs to come out with a new model, be it RX-8 or RX-7.

j_tso

The rotary's biggest advantage is its size so it should go in a small coupe. It's all about Power:Weight.

Mazda made a point of saying a 2 seater sports car makes the most out of the Wankel when the first RX-7 was released because it makes good power compared to its size and fuel economy wouldn't be too high a priority in a sports car.

ccd

I disagree. The size and weight of the wankel allows you to use a front engine configuration but obtain the weight distribution of a mid-engined auto. The space in the RX-8 while having its outstanding handling capabilities is only possible because of the wankel.

77mjd

All I hope for is they can get it figured out. I know the MPG is probably the biggest...and hardest issue to deal with on the rotary. Hopefully they will have a breakthrough. Problem is the longer they wait, the higher the MPG will have to be.

Symbioticgenius

I think Carbon Buildup is still a bigger issue. MPG, might be more important as a selling point, but if word gets out the engine sucks, sales will still suck.

Obviously most here know my take on Ethanol, but the "supporting systems" of the RX8 cause a lot of the common issues. The Coils suck, and sucky coils make everything else suck (pardon my 2nd grade grammar, Im exhausted). Bad coils, cause Bad Plugs, Bad Cats, Low compression, and eventual demise.

I would work on a better Coil system.... which might help MPG...

Oh yeah, BTW, if its gonna be a 2 seater, it damn sure better be faster than a 370, otherwise the 8 loses its best comparative selling point.

bhop

I had already mentioned something about this somewhere haha....


-2 Seats
-250-280hp
-2700-2950lbs base model, maybe even 3000lbs with extra BS
-Personally, I don't mind gas mileage considering what the current models mpg's are. Then again if they cut some weight this will help mpg's as well. It is a sports car but good mileage Def. brings in more customers.

Now maybe I left no room for suggestions, maybe. IMO, I think Mazda can go about this a # of ways. Reliability comes to mind and mileage, but if that is some how calculated correctly, ( This is also why it is a challenge) or even just from a reliability standpoint ( with above description of vehicle), I think that will be a winner.

For plenty of car enthusiast this could work but we also have to think about the general public, families for example....... More ideas??

EDIT: Maybe they can have both a 2 and 4 seat option haha.

Mazmart

iTrader: (12)

Any 2 seater that they do with less than 270 horse must weigh less than 2700 lbs or else it is major fail. Even if it's an entry level sports car (Which makes much sense to me). The power to weight needs to be that to start with.

My realistic goals for a 2 seat rotary sports car are NA:
Power 275 hp ,
Torque 200 lb-ft
weight 2600 lbs,
MPG 18/26

A turbo version should be available within a year afterward making 55 extra hp and 75 extra lb-ft. The weight penalty should not exceed 100lbs including all the turbo, intercooler, plumbing, beefier brakes, drivetrain etc.

Ahhh, a man can only dream.

Paul

reddozen

iTrader: (1)

Nissan has the 2-door and 4-door Altima now...

As for 3000 lbs... no thanks. Not with only 250~280HP. You'd probably want closer to 350~380HP.

We'll just have to wait and see what Mazda is planning...

ccd

I think the interesting question is whether Mazda can introduce a new wankel with the existing engine. No one knows if the engineering challenges of the 16x can be overcome or how much longer it will take if they can be overcome. The existing engine is here and has the advantage of being in use for 7 yrs. My assumption is that the engine is reliable, especially after the '09 changes. Not at all sure the public believes that, but Mazda cannot afford ANY reliability issues with the wankel. I have to assume that reliability concerns are the reason why Mazda never offerred FI for the current engine.

So if you are left with the current engine powering any new model, what can you do??? The obvious answer is two-fold. First get the weight down substantially. I like the car having a back seat, but weight trumps a back seat. My off the top of my head guess is that the car would need to be in the 2500-2700 range to make a big performance impact with the output of the current engine. Second, the car will have to remain first and foremost a true sports car where the emphasis is on handling over raw horsepower AND the car is marketing as such.

arghx7

the new car will have to break into the 13's to compete, no matter what motor is in it and no matter how well it handles.

nsu

Do you think Mazda will pull the plug on RX8 soon regardless of the outcome of the 16x? Sales of the 8 have fallen off the cliff and a lot of dealers don't even want to stock it.

ccd

If I were a betting man, I would wager that the 2010 model year will be the last one for the current car and that we will have to wait a year or two (or more) for its replacement.

bhop

Well, I hope that dream comes true.

Coming from my standpoint, I usually cut plenty of weight in any sports car I have owned so weight is not my issue.

Overall, for enthusiast and the general public, what Paul has said is perfect IMO. Mazda can figure it out, I'm hoping.

Perfecting a new 3 rotor will help some of these issues haha.

ccd

I think everyone (including myself) need to realistically re-examine the whole hp/weight issue in light of what is currently on the market and where we think the new RX would slot. Under $40k, there are 1-2 true sports cars (depending on your definition). The is the 370Z and the only way Mazda is going head to head with this car is with the 16x engine as this car weighs around 3400 lbs and has 330 hp. The other possible sports car is the Genesis Coupe 2.0 Track or Track R Spec. The current RX-8 weighs less, and has more hp (but less torque and much worse gas mileage).

There is maybe one GT car which again is the Genesis Coupe, but this time the 3.8 Track. The current RX-8 is about 400 lbs lighter but 70 hp less powerful.

Sports sedans? Maybe the BMW 128i which is about the same power but heavier than the current RX-8.

Finally there are muscle cars like the Mustang and Camaro. I've seen both listed as competitors for the RX-8 in reviews and I alway shake my head in wonder. Does anyone seriously considering the RX-8 look at either of these cars??? In stock form, the cars couldn't be more different. The only other possible category of car out there are the FWD hot hatches which, like the muscle cars, are very different animals.

So if you slot the new RX-7 comfortably below the 370Z so as to avoid that competition (say around $30k), how light or powerful would the new RX-7 have to be in stock form to be competitive with everything out there??? The answer is probably that the new RX-7 will need to be lighter, but probably only needs to be 100-200 lbs lighter than the current RX-8. More powerful? Yes, but probably no more than 270-280 hp would do the trick.

prighello

Another thing Mazda needs to consider is the future competitors like Toyota's FT86 and the Subaru variant of the FT86. If the next RX is to play in the under 30K category these cars will likely offer strong competition. Although recent news suggests the FT86 will be under powered the Subaru version most certainly won’t be. I also hear that these cars are to be light, like 2600 – 2800 lbs.

I think Mazda’s best bet is to play both ends of the field with one solid chassis and two power trains like someone mentioned earlier. Offer an introductory NA model starting at 25-26K with 275hp 180tq and an optional FI model for 29-32K with 325hp 230tq. Both should weight in around 2700-2900lbs. This way Mazda can go after the lower end (FT86, Genesis 2.0T) or the higher end (Subaru FT86, 370z, & Genesis 3.8L).

To be honest I don’t believe Mazda’s competition lies any more up market than the Z. Forgot about going after Porsche, BWM, etc…the consumer perception just isn’t there for Mazda which is why the last RX7 only sold 13K units in the US. Mazda really needs to evaluate how much brand equity it really has with RX line and then design something for the appropriate price category it can effectively compete in…under 35K.

ccd

I question whether any variation of the FT86 will come in the 2600-2800 lb range. There are very few cars that weigh under 3000 lbs. In this case, they will need to get very light without any special materials because the price point won't support anything exotic. When it is all said and done with all the safety materials, I bet the FT86 will be hard pressed to get under 3000 lbs

nsu

They will definitely do without the floor mats these days...

prighello

I disagree, the concept unveiled at the Tokyo Auto Show was quite small, Mini size in fact. With that size foot print I don't see why it can't weight under 3000 lbs. Look what Mazda is planning with the next MX5 weight wise and that car isn't going to be over 30K, more like mid 20s.

ccd

Hope you are right, but alot happens from concept stage to production stage and it usually isn't that good.

Thieleracing

this is mazda needs to do !! But no so ugly

http://wikicars.org/en/Mazda_Cosmo_21

77mjd

Although reliability issues have supposedly been taken care of, the problem with continuing to use the current engine is the fact that you still have **** poor fuel economy. Even if you had a car that would be a few hundred lbs lighter, the impact on mpg would be minimal. Besides the rotorheads, the masses will not accept the horrible mpg on a relatively underpowered car. I still believe the mpg is the main reason there is virtually no market for the 8 anymore.

Marklar

OK, let's face it. The 16X will be an improvement over the Renesis, but it will still lag behind the competition.

Mazda just can't make rotaries that can compete with piston engines in the current HP wars. Piston engines are getting stupid powerful (hello, 400+ HP luxury cars that never see 80 MPH), and Mazda just can't ramp up the rotary at the same rate.

And it's hard to convince people that a less powerful rotary is better than a piston engine that gets better MPG with more power. The rotary allows better handling because of its smaller size and lighter weight than a piston engine of the same power, but HP and MPG are numbers you can put on a sticker and handling feel is not.

Mazda is doing a great job with continuing rotary development. They are heroes for even sticking with it, given what it has cost them. Be thankful for whatever future rotaries come our way, because only the die-hard dedication of Mazda is keeping this super-fun engine alive.

Don't get your hopes up too far about the 16X. Just hope we actually see it in a production car. It's bad times for rotaries, and this ain't nothing new, Mazda has been going through this since the late '70s and we should be glad that they have kept rotary cars alive this long.

Symbioticgenius

Yeah, cause the top selling 350\370z gets like, 2 more MPG than the 8.
P.S. A large portion of my friends... roughly 70% drive VQ powered vehicles (Z's and G35's), and most of them get crappy gas mileage too.

I believe the main market issue for the 8 has much more to do with perception. With the invention of the internet, researching any product is easy. If you do research on the Rx8, you will hear of both engine and transmission issues, as well as various oil usage\consumption irregularities. You hear 159 lb\ft of torque and you think Altima, not sports car. All of this leads to the perception that the 8 sucks. Those who looked past those things, and tried the car, are pretty much owners. Unfortunately, too many people believe all of what they read.

Also, Mazda doesn't even advertise the 8 at all. Fail on their part.