Motortrend article: Mazda's RX-7 Dilemma
 

http://www.motortrend.com/features/a...mma/index.html

Mazda's on the fence regarding the next gen RX-7 and 16X.

Mazda make the tweaked Miata one!!

If they really do make a 220 lb lighter 2-door coupe with a 1600cc rotary engine and turbo I will not only buy one, I might even break my normal rule about buying first model years and buy one as soon as it hits showroom floors. Then I will send a thank you letter to Mazda. That is the car I want.

the reason i bought an rx8 and not an s2000, z3, or 350z was the rear seats.

my second choice was a blue z3 m coupe. i kind of wish i had bought it. -_- but maintenance would have been nightmarish. still, they only weigh a bit more than the rx8 and come with 333hp....

Looks like the Rx8 will be enjoying a couple more years before the next gen rotary. Maybe it will be the last rotary! It will become a rare classic. :Peace:

they should just build a 3-rotor RX7 n shut em all up.

Ever heard of fuel economy averages for car manufacturers? :lol:

Mazda buyers aren't Lambo Murcielago buyers, so no one will be looking to pay an $8k gas guzzler tax.



.....But, would I throw away all my money at a triple rotor factory-warranted car?


Does the Pope wear red shoes?! :bigok:

260-280 hp in a true coupe that is lighter than the rx-8 = win. keep it light and simple and i'll sign up.

this is the only viable layout of a Rotary nowadays IMHO, just cutaway the H2 stuff.

you can't meet the current figures of CO2 emission without "help"

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/5...73be0aa51b.jpg[/QUOTE]


photo shoot from Mazda Museum in Hiroshima .

by the time this car actually comes out ill be making decent money so as long as its going to make those kind of numbers sign me up!

No, dude a 4 rotor production Furai!!!!!!!

i think the sure-fire way for this to succeed (commercially) would be to follow suit of the ft-86, a cheap, small, lightweight, and dynamically excellent rwd coupe. cheap (affordable) being the key. just develop the kabura into a production car

Well, since we're now possibly looking at 2013 at the earliest and I probably won't buy a first year car again, looks like that cements the 370z as my next car.

The info in this article seems a little more concrete than we're used to seeing/reading. But that rendering is horrible. Looks like a PS'd Crossfire

That gas guzzler tax just a Cali thing?

If Mazda lowers emissions on everything else in the brand hopefully the rotary wont bring up the average too much.

Honestly, they should just use the damn FD body and throw the upgraded 16X in it. That body is classic enough to use again, or at least as a starting point. I'd still like to see an 8 version as well, complete with 4 seating and all. Roughly based on the current 8.

Time will tell.

I think this is exactly what mazda is waiting for. To see how the market accepts the Toyobaru, and if there is enough market share for them in it.

Looking at Toyota will be nothing more than a momentary amusement. Regardless of anything, screw everybody else the new rotary is coming. It is just a matter of how many years it will take to reach their goals. Markets continually boom and bust, you can count on the next boom as surely as you can count on the human nature of greed.

While I am only driving 4000 miles per year, Mazda has all the time in the world to get it ready.

This is so funny, as lambasted as the rotary is, it is the engine that is keeping me over the long haul. I finally watched the Evora on Top Gear, with its Camry engine and flimsy lifted gearbox. No can do.

All these "rx8 drivers" with their knees buckling at any "news" should be just ashamed. It's just a car. Some people can wait for the new rotary, some can't, but really either way it doesn't matter.

IMO, Mazda seems to be a little too worried about if there would be a market for another rotary car. I think there would be. I think part of the problem still stems from what people were expecting when the RX-8 came out. They were expecting a car like the last RX-7 or better at an affordable price. While the 8 is affordable, it is a different animal than the 7.

In all honesty, since the 8 came out, I think the MPG issue has been more of a sales killer than the relatively meager power numbers. If this car could get upper 20s to 30 hwy with curernt performance numbers it would have sold a LOT better.

I guess the only thing left for Mazda to learn from the 8 is if the gen II engine holds up better with the extra oil injector but it's pretty much a given the 16x will also have the extra one anyway.

Amen. Why a Kabura based rotary car doesn't already have a green light is beyond me. :banghead:

Paul.

So if we do really have some more time before the 16X hits the market let's either save up more or buy a '09 or newer now. It is tempting at prices I see but mine is coming up on 40K and running better then ever so I'm leaning toward saving.

I'll be out of college by 2012. Perfect timing for them to get the new RX ready.

Now that would be something :yumyum:

Given the current political climate, it seems like greater displacement is no longer the answer. They need to ditch the 16X and update the 1.3 liter Renesis. Use the aluminum side housings and use the revised geometry to reduce quenching and all the other problems that lead to high emissions and poor fuel economy. Then install a single turbo that can make the power output of the series 8 Rx-7, about 280 bhp.

Basically make a cheaper, more emissions/fuel economy friendly version of the last Rx-7. The series 8 cars did a solid mid 13's in the quarter mile.

Some people say that Mazda should make the 7 like this, or like that. One thing I have appreciated about Mazda's rotaries was the fact that they seemed to be designed in a vacuum. What does the RX-8 directly compete with? The engine is like the S2000, but it is a hard top, with rear seats. It doesn't have the brute power of the Nissans. It has awesome back seat access.

So I would say to Mazda....don't design a car to compete with Toyota...especially considering how lackluster Toyota's cars have been in the soul department. The last "fun" cars with the MR2s, and while they may have had good numbers, they didn't turn in or feel like Mazdas do. I'm not really looking for more power than the current models...but improved range would be great (300+ miles without trying). I would have bought a Miata had I not bought the 8, so additional seats aren't a huge deal, but I have used them in several cases already. I wonder what the target redline they are working toward would be? 10k would be awesome, just because it's a five digit number... I used to think that dual clutch automagics were the most awesome things in the world, but after having owned them...I love shifting my own gears.

That's right, make it a driver's car whatever is done. Make it rewarding to drive at normal speeds as well as at the track. Crisp turn in, responsive throttle that can steer the car in the corner, and reward the driver with those really nice heel toe shifts (I may have to make the concession for automatic rev holds for downshifts). A nice rifle-bolt transmission (throw redline in it from the get go). Keep the sound of the 8 -- that giant sewing machine whirr. LSD should be standard...maybe even an option for an e-diff? Speaking of such, make Mazdaspeed parts orderable options (especially the blue level stuff).

Features. It seems that cars with features sell. How many Miata Club Sports sold a year? How many Miata Sports w/o convenience sell? Many options add insignificant weight to the car and add much to the joy. Auto climate control and auto wipers may seem frivolous, but on a track day with intermittent, varying intensity rain and spots of sunshine, it's nice to "set it and forget it". The big thing to me is tiered options being a pain. I know they save manufacturing costs...but I don't want leather seats and I don't want to have to choose between having them and having my automatic climate control/wipers...

Looks: the FD looked amazing. Something along those lines. The dip in the roof, hood, and trunk...keep that. Forget the pedestrians.

I don't think Mazda listens to anyone other than their passionate employees and owners. They acknowledge the rest of the world complains, praises, comments, criticizes, and compares, and do their own thing anyway. If they improved the economy slightly (20-25 range), and didn't have the reliability issues at the beginning, there would have been very very very few critics.

Keeping the price down is a critical direction Mazda has to take, so as fun as thinking about factory 3 and 4 rotor cars is, I can't see it happening any time soon because the population of buyers for it is so tiny. I am glad they don't cater to the mass market appeal of boring isolation from everything around you, but they still need volume to support it.

As an example, the Mazda2 is a perfect solution for their entry into that segment, since the achieve the econobox criteria without losing the fun and style. I find myself really attracted to it, and it will almost certainly be my wife's next car. The RX-8 did a wonderful job of appealing to a wider market than the RX-7 did, and Mazda has a real opportunity of improving on that even further.

They need to keep the price where it is or slightly lower, not skimp on cooling and lubrication, and beef up the ignition to really last 60-100k (to preserve the EPA ratings more than 20k), and they won't need to change the engine, only the style to break from the existing perceptions and biased opinions.

People call it underpowered, but it really isn't. If 232 (or whatever crank hp you want to call it) is really underpowered, why are 80%+ of the cars you drive around every day lower power? Especially if they apply their weight loss program to the 8, it won't need more power to sell to the market. Dropping a few hundred pounds increases the 0-60 and 1/4 times that everyone cares so much about, without touching the engine. The Miata outsells the 8 by far, and it's half the power.

Power costs money, how fast can you afford to go? How fast can Mazda afford to make it?

Make it hella fast off the production line and it's sales will be dismally low (although magazine reviews and couch drivers will praise it to the sky), because only a sliver of people would be able to afford it (further requiring a price increase to avoid losing money on the model). Probably the same ratio of current owners that can afford to go FI. The few people that will want more power out of it will still crank it up, but instead of only that tiny percentage purchasing the car in the first place, they get alot of people buying it who find the power level entirely adequate as well.

They need sales, not records.



And personally, +1 to the 2,200lb rotary powered chassis. Doesn't need power to be awesome.

it will only happen if the s2 rx8 is a mechanical success.
OD

Drop the S2 Renny in a Miata right now and I'll personally get mazda 5 ppl to buy it. If everyone here did the same, they'd be golden.

Oh. The Miata needs to lose weight too, Just a bit.

The wining formula has been here all along, it's quite simple, why hasn't mazda done it yet:dunno: is beyond me

You take one of this:
http://www.japanesesportcars.com/gal.../mazda-rx9.jpg

Drop one of this in it, or a s2 renni:
http://www.themotorreport.com.au/wp-...zda_16x_01.jpg

Keep it lightweight, simple, no bs electronic nannies and you got yourself a winner.
Build one today and I will buy one YESTERDAY. I can guarantee that if Mazda builds anything close to this they will have the best selling rotary of all time.

^+1 Signed

and so we wait, i guess i am not a hurry i plan on keeping my 8 for 5-8 years. curently starting year 4

^^ +2 Signed up for that!!!!

I actually disagree with this Mike... we have both seen the astonishingly terrible amount of knowledge people have about rotary engines. If they have even heard of them its something negative. Sales don't come from nowhere. Mazda could do a lot worse than having a rotary car that gives them some records.

Fuel economy is so low on the list of concerns for a sports car and the RX-8 has very similar mileage to 6 cylinder high output sports cars. A lighter chassis woud help it a lot too. The absolute number one thing that Mazda HAS to do if it is going to stay in the rotary business is address reliability concerns with the rotary engine. As much as it pains me to say this, if they cannot make a rotary last as long as a piston engine then they need to seriously consider if rotary cars belong in their lineup.

The other issue is picking a direction for the next rotary car. The RX-8 is a unique GT car, but not a purpose built sports car. It is too heavy, with too little torque and if they want to truly have it compete with the sports car market it needs to go on a diet and get some torque. A single turbo would do that nicely and it takes advantage of the engine's incredible ability to breathe.

Also what I would love to see for Mazda's rotary lineup is a dealer and driver education program about rotaries. I would like to go into a dealership and have them know wtf to do with my car. I would like new owners to get the proper information before they buy the car.

I meant that more as a universal generalized statement. If the next rotary is a record breaking beast, it will also be out of the price range of most of the current fan base, and that will further drive up the price they need to sell it at to avoid taking a loss on the line. Volume is where car manufacturers become profitable, and they need volume on the next rotary to help keep it alive.

100% agree, part of the way they obtain that volume is addressing reliability concerns, which can be almost entirely solved through better cooling (oil and engine), better lubrication, and a beefier ignition system that will last 60k to 100k. Also 100% agree on the dealer and driver education program prior to purchase. Dropping weight will enable them to avoid worrying about the power output.

If they start setting records anyway, that would be awesome, but their target needs to be reliable affordable fun, not the records. That is what I meant. Just like the 3. Almost no one reviews the standard 3, just the Mazdaspeed 3. But Mazda3 sales far and away beat MS3. They need to do the same thing with the next rotary. Make the reliable affordable fun rotary (light weight is a must to keep the fun element and keep it quick). At that point, they can afford to let the Mazdaspeed side of the business introduce a MS FI version that will be the one that all the magazines and armchair drivers would review and praise to the skys.

^I am with you 100 percent on the two types of new RXs. One for the daily average joe, and one for the enthusiast.

I mean in all practicality if you look at just about every single other sports car out there it has a low power and a high power version.

Even your more mid to high end sports cars are like this. Take the corvette for example, it has the 3 different versions. the 6.2 the 7.0 and the 6.2 FI. All to accommodate different drivers and make most profit while still maintaining its name.

As long as it is essentially the same chassis and engine, they can retain the profits by not requiring lots of extra tooling, and their profits will primarily come from the base version that the common middle class enthusiast can afford, while the high power version will be the one to make the name and take the ticket.

Making 2 entirely different rotaries isn't going to happen due to the cost, but 2 versions of the same rotary is their best bet.

The 8 has a low power version ("standard power"). It's the 4 port motor, the one that came with a 5 speed manual tranny in other markets and was offered here on the automatics for the first few years. I am unsure if the 4 port is still available in markets besides the US.

Hey in the article it said "....smaller than the current RX-8, which will go out of production in 2011."

Is that TRUE about 2011 or did I misread?

agree with a lot being said---so far on the 09's --so good?
1 09 engine i know off that was torn down was carboned somewhat--only had about 5K on it.
That pic of the red 2 seater--would buy that!
why not supercharge with low boost --lower compression engine, with water methenol injection (dont laugh--other cars are looking at this --seriously) and have a 2900 lb car with about 270 to the wheels. Instant success.
Maintainability is not bad at all---again seriously.
w/m helps with so many things that is rotor specific--to much to discuss here. SC is a simpler set up than a turbo and underhood heat is not as big of a concern. Plus you cant fool with the boost settings easily.
I can see a 16X low compression engine with a 8K redline, plus a 6lb boost s.c.w/m set up that is tied to a twin clutch trans. 2900 lb car with 260-270 at the rear wheels and looks like the one posted a few threads back.
it would be an instant legend.
olddragger

+4 to that rx7 picture. It looks godly!

+1 :yesnod: I hope is that RED RX8... dang... clean clean!

If for no other reason than it doesn't address the primary concern of the rotary engine, low torque characteristic.

Mazda already has trouble selling a car people have to put a quart of oil into once every 3000 miles, are you really going to suggest they have your average consumer keep a meth tank full? Hell, I would rather have them require pre-mix, but that isn't going to happen either.

Too heavy. That is heavier than even the RX-7 was. If you are going to make a true sports car the best weapon Mazda has in their arsenal is light weight. It works for the MX-5 and would work for a rotary car as well.

That's just not true and I'm getting really tired of having to correct people who should know better.

careful there Aaron Denny knows a hell of alot, he's just partial, and besides its just all in fun and theory:D:,,,

I know OD knows a lot, which is exactly my point. Everyone has a partial personal opinion that works for them, thats not a problem. I get frustrated when I see comments like that thrown around by people who know better. That was my only contention.

My torque characteristic comment clearly shows what my partial personal opinion is, but I also agree there is no such thing as one right answer. Hell, even in the new hopefully released RX-7/9 you can see a divergence of opinions about what we all hope to see in the car and we are all rotary fans with relatively similar tastes after all. Maybe that is one of the biggest challenges as an OEM is making a vehicle that pleases everyone. Gas mileage, power, weight, reliability, ease of use, and cost all perfect for everyone. :sad:

Well, if the car does end up similar to that then I'm buying... ^^ Gas mileage, I don't mind, power, reliability out of factory, weight, ease of use and cost is something I hope Mazda has a plan for.

Since E-85 caught on the next RX should be dual tuned for Ethanol. You got your fuel economy (as far as cost goes Eth is about $.60 cheaper per gallon than premium), You got your cooling, and carbon cleansing that the rotary needs. All right there, staring us in the face. I say do it Mazda.

Oh and supercharging a Rotary does make sense because of the high RPM's it can run, but ultimately turbo is the way to go for torque, especially low end where most people complain.

Nonetheless, I'm counting on Mazda to do whatever it takes to make sure the next rotary comes out, and while I'm on the topic, let me just say F the EPA, and F emissions regulations. That is all.

And over $40,000 which prices it right out of it's performance range. Unless Mazda can keep the baseline cost of this car around $30,000 people are going to go for other options. Rotary purists might go for it but the population of Sevenstock isn't going to make anyone any money.

Power to weight is going to be the only real advantage that Mazda is going to have. Increased displacement on the motor will help things but otherwise it's an uphill battle.

The fact remains that unless Mazda can produce something new and fresh the rotary is going to be in a bad spot for continued production. With other manufacturers able to produce high powered 300+whp vehicles capable of 25 to 30 mpg it's going to be a tough sell.

I'd love to see a new RX7 as much as everyone else but it's a tough sell.

Mazda is in the business to make money. They haven't made much on the rotaries. Miata's have been slowly toning their muscles over the years. There are a couple running around with turbo 2.3 engines pumped up to over 300 reliable HP. From a business perspective it wouldn't make sense to risk an underpowered sports car that has a fuel economy handicap considering the competition.

^+1, more to the point why they should throw a rotary in a Miata.

You know what they should do. Just for shiggles, after they get things sorted, start making Miatas with Rotaries, and don't even mention it. Some with 4Sillies, and others with the 16X w\e. Just like that instant knowledge that Rotaries are no different, and awesome promotional tool. Do it in a focus group of some sort, like Windows did that Mojave\ Vista crap. Would work wonders IMHO.

Oh, why did they ever stop making the Mazdaspeed Miata?

No offense but if the sold me a Miata with a Rotary in it i would be PISSED!

It would kill sales as well...

They won't make it rotary only, too much of a solid 4 banger base, plug the Miata Cup, etc...

However, making the rotary an engine option much the way the 6 has a i4 or v6 engine option is certainly viable. I hardly think it will kill sales for the Miata.

"What? They are releasing my LOVING car with a ROTARY!? How dare they taint my vehicle with the thought!? Forget Mazda, I'm going for the Mustang with a REAL motor!"

Is that how we are imagining it, or something?

I had an o4 Mustang Mach1. Ripping a burnout from a standstill in 2nd gear was fun as heck... ( before replacing the tires of course... ) the Miata is a hell of a lot funner to drive though.

The OP stated Mazda should throw the Rotary in there, sneak it in to be exact, without telling anyone... thus the.... I would be PISSED remark. Not because of the tainted Miata image but because I don't want to deal with a Rotary.

If they threw a piston engine in an RX and didn't tell you I would imagine you would be equally pissed. :yesnod: