Fair enough. I can't argue that. :)

Again why Mazda needs to generate a rotary that has a reputation for reliability. People are terrified of the engine.

Also, sneaking a rotary into a traditionally piston engine car would be a disaster for everyone. Offering it as an engine option would be smart. Hell the MX-5 has a bunch of shared systems with the RX-8, dropping a Renesis into the MX-5 wouldn't even be that hard and would probably sell pretty well. It wouldn't throw off the weight of the MX-5 and would up the power by a lot over the piston variant.

Fuel economy isn't an area I think the rotary is ever going to compete in as best in class. It will always be on the low end of the sports car economy line, but if someone is buying a sports car based off the fuel economy they are a goddamn idiot.

What Mazda can compete with is light weight, superb handling, and the main area they need to get their game on is reliability. I also think they need to raise power output, but a turbocharger would make reliability worse not better so its certainly an issue for them. If they offer a new rotary vehicle it should come with at least an option for a turbocharged variant from the factory... Mazdaspeed or High-power etc, naturally aspirated rotaries don't generate enough torque.

All of that is worthless though if they can't prove the rotary engine can at least match traditional piston engines for reliability. If they can't they might as well give up on the engine because it will just suck money down the drain.

Aahh, yeah, that makes sense. I read it as "If they put it in there, sales would drop". You're rendition makes more sense now :rofl:

Hey Aaron

I was not talking about what FI system performs the best in given situations. I mentioned the supercharger because that is the way manufactuers are going. The Mustang the Corvette, the lotus, tundra trucks etc. I am not aware of any NEW turbo cars out there. I admit there may be some--I just dont know about them. After market supercharger kits are out for the 350Z , and the G 35's etc. Just seems to be more of them now a days. SC are simpler systems to install and maintain--i will stand on that. They will not put out as much performance gains as a big turbo--data speaks for itself. But how much power is enough for the car maker?

A supercharged 16x would give plenty of tq for street use dude---come on! Probably over 200.

Heat on a turbo is an issue. To simplify --if it wasnt why all the shielding? I dont want to get techical here.

Anytime there are more parts in a system it automatically causes the system to become more complex. Which system has the most parts that are different from an NA engine? Do you really believe a turbo system is less complex than a s.c. system?
You do realize that a low boost s.c. with w/m will not need an intercooler?

Water methanol system maintainance is filling up your winshield washer like tank every 2 months--thats not much for a true perfomance sports car and think of the talk it will cause! Yea baby

Its going to be hard to get weight down? But heck yea I will take it lower--i was just mainly pointing out the hp/wgt ratio range that I thought would be good. If we can get to 10/1 --uh huh!

I dont mean to get into a turbo/sc discussion here. There is nothing wrong with a good, correctly installed turbo system---nothing at all. Neither system is perfect. But, I would suspect also that aftermarket driveway beginning owners would be tinkering with the turbo system to get more boost were as you cannot do that with a s.c. (until someone makes bigger pulleys).
Anyway that is basically where I was coming from
rotor on dude!
olddragger

A turbo/SC option would be prime.
All Aluminum would be a +.
That car is a beautiful render.
I would buy that. Sell the SUV, and make the 8 the family car.

1. reliabilitly is going to take time, that's all there is to it. They really messed up with the 8 early on, especially the 4 speed AT ( of cousre this is what the wife bought.... LOL ) . Agreed they must be able to match the reliability of a piston engine. Just saying "well look how light the engine is and how great the car handles" won't cut it. There are lots of awesome handling piston powered cars out there and most will never come close to pushing the limits of the car anyway.


2. True, when buying a sports car fuel economy is really silly to complain about but I think what the problem the 8 faces is the HP/TQ gains that are expected with that poor mpg. 18/22 mpg rating and folks expect 300+ if not more these days.

Although your car is MORE THAN INCREDIBLE (And I mean it), normal people :eyetwitch aren't going to do the rituals that you do.

Paul :).

Hey Paul I know i am sick.:) and i am loving it.

Flash i dont want to sound like I am arguing---dont mean to do that.
I guess different opinions is what makes the world go around. You have good ideas and i respect them. Keep them coming man.
Merry Christmas dude.
OD

I don't think we should worry what platform the engine is put into yet.

The problem Mazda is facing now is they can't get the 16X to run well. I don't believe in everything the reports say, but we've only heard nothing but bad news so far about the new prototype rotary engine.

1) Not enough revs - very possible due to heavier and bigger rotors
2) DI making it too heavy - really?? its hard to buy into that
3) Their DI system isn't a true DI, meaning injecting and then burning in the same rotor face = greatly reduced chamber cooling effects and precise burning, its like a better version of port injection
4) Fuel economy not meeting expectation
5) Awaiting reports of the reliability of the Series II RX-8 engines

I think any new rotary sports car will have to wait for the development of the 16X to finish. It doesn't make much sense to put the RX-8 engine into another platform. Even in a 2700lb package, it will at best achieve acceptable gas mileage. None of us care much about the gas mileage, but it is indeed a problem. And the Series I engine can't outlast a 20 year old NA rotary.

6) Maybe the all Aluminum construction is giving them problems too, unforeseen problems


Mazda is the expert in making platforms, from Mazda 2 to CX-9, which platform isn't even a concern at all, they can make a 2500lb RX-7 that handles on rails anyday.
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new developments in Prathumnak

well i dont know. If you can picture the fuel being sprayed just before that rotor tip passes the injector i think that its started compression at that point

http://www.autoweek.com/storyimage/C...16x-rotary.jpg

i can't see the rotors being heavier. they are slightly taller but they are also narrower. I bet the issue with revs is the mass being farther from the center so exerting higher centripetal force on the e-shaft(of course thats why it has higher torque: longer lever;)). probably need a better front bearing or even a center support bearing.

Ok.

My last post was a bit misleading, and I'm shocked that it was taken as it was. I never intended for Mazda to sell Miata's marked as 4 Cyl's with Rotaries instead.
That is A. Illegal, and will kill Mazda,
B. Immoral and will kill Mazda,
C. Stupid, and will Kill Mazda.

I used Microsofts Mojave experiment
http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=2311
as an example to give an idea to what I meant.
Give a Focus group 100 Miatas, to keep for 2 Summer months. (I volunteer).
Half get a 2 Rotor, Half get 4 Cyl. Don't tell them some are Rotaries, just say hey, try the new Miata out for us and give us feedback.
Obviously make them sign not to tinker with motor, or even pop the hood \ lift the car etc, but allow them to take it to the track, or drive normally, or use as they see fit, period.

After the 2 months is up, collect the feedback, video tape the results, and break the news that their car was a Rotary or not, etc. Compare it to the feedback that people gave from the 4 Cyls.

If all goes well, this could be an amazing promotional tool, seeing the 70 year old dude talking about how awesome the car felt, didn't notice any hesitation, flooding, low torque, etc.
Even if it doesn't go well, make them sign disclosure agreements and use the data to improve the rotary to meet the standards set by the other motor.

Its win \ win.

You sure it is not because it is heavier? :cool:

Hmm.. I am sure you have seen Mazda's DISI, or other DI system. The benefits of DI comes mainly from igniting the fuel as soon as (or while, I'm not sure about the timing) they're injected. If they could put the DI injector closer to the sparkplug, then a much better fuel economy can be expected.

Even before they've released pictures of 16X, I imagined the DI injectors to be just above the sparkplugs, perhaps spraying fuel down into the plugs, then they're ignited.

When I saw the first pictures of 16X, the location of the injectors surprised me a little. But what do I know, I ain't an engineer.
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Latin Girl Live

I can picture it. It should be on the same face. You're right.
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big women Webcams

You mean like this?
http://homepage.mac.com/jolocho/iiRE.png
That's from 1981!

You really think half that focus group, without knowing anything about a rotary, would not flood it? Look how many 8's got flooded and people where told how to avoid it. Just cause they don't know there is a rotary in there doesn't mean they won't notice the low tourqe at low rpm either.

You would have the old guy saying " I pulled it out to wash it and now the POS won't start... had to have it towed back to the dealer and all the plugs where changed... what kind of crap is this?"

^^ yeah when old NSU engineers in Germany still worked on rotaries

I can't imagine DI adding a ton of weight, yes you'll need to pressurize the fuel to extreme PSI's but on most modern applications it adds about 20 lbs total. (18 lbs to be exact on the new porsche 3.8 flat 6) The main benefit of the system is a cooler charge.

maybe they need a 3 sparkplug per rotor set up?
i wonder if they are having trouble with cylinder(rotary face) wash?
Mazda needs to make a 3 or 4 rotor supercar? The mazda name needs a flagship?
OD

I say put the renniy in the mx-5, change the final gear, upgrade the suspension and make the car a bit wider . Do the same test as Symbioticgenius suggested, he truly is a genious.

Price the car at an introductory rate around 1k less than the RX8 R3 and still give the 100k warranty,

The new rennys have the 6 oil squirters so i doubt that they are going to have the same issues as the first gen rx8s are having. Upgraded starter, battery and better spark. With all of this, I dont see an issue with flooding.


OMG!!! Rx8+Mx5=RX5!!!! Smaller, faster, convertible rotary!!! Its like having an 85 rx7... lol That would be my next car if mazda puts it in its line up. Until then i will keep my rx8. And down the line ill build me and mx5 with a renny, maybe with a supercharger to make things fun! =D

But the circa 85 rotary was a different beast. Those engines would go over 200k wouldn't they? They didn't build up carbon like the newer designs do.. they didn't have to pass the newer more strict emmisions test.

Agreed but offer a true fastback/hatchback coupe similar in size/packaging to FD and I would be at the Mazda dealer in a heartbeat.


Do people still flood there 8's? I can't/have never been able to flood mine no matter how hard I try. I start it cold in the morning in 0 deg temp, drive across the street to gas station and shut down 2 mins later w/o temp dial even moving, fill up and it starts right up. This happens probably once a month. I've moved it countless times cold and come back 36-48 hours later to go somewhere and starts right up.

I have been skepitcal about the possibilities of 16x to meet the tuff emission standard for the future (i mean particulary Co2 emissions), behind this news there is a revision of the project into an hybrid rotary engine....smaller than the 16x an maybe electro-assisted turbocharged..they have patented also A 1.0 litre (is it correct?)

just my 2 cents

Yes, flooding is still fairly frequent, but it has nothing to do with cold temps, or even "below optimal temp" on startup. Every single flooding I have seen in the past year has been due to a degrading ignition system that couldn't produce a strong enough spark to ignite, normally because the owner wasn't aware that the ignition system doesn't last 40k, 50k, 60k, (or even 83k from someone)

Which is why I keep mentioning the ignition system as something Mazda needs to beef up and make sure that it last at least 60k completely trouble free and in perfect condition (not just adequate), if not 100k. (except spark plugs, people accept the need to change those every ~30k on piston engines anyway). That plus required lubrication and required cooling will dramatically impact their reliability perception for the better.

[QUOTE=RIWWP;3353492]. (except spark plugs, people accept the need to change those every ~30k on piston engines anyway).

They do? :scratchhe

Can't think of a modern car that requires a 30k spark plug change.

I should probably adjust that to read "people are told to change those every 30k" :)

30k spark plug change is in every maintenance schedule I have ever read across many models and manufacturers. They can probably last 60k+, but if you tell a common piston owner that they need new plugs every 30k, they won't fall over in shock. It is accepted as part of the "tune up". Coils and wires are not.

Yep!!

Thanks for the pic. I guess they found this interior to the set-up they have now?
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BUY GLASS PIPES

Sigh....
They fixed Flooding issues back in 06, Welcome to 2009 where flooding isn't an issue.
From what I've noticed around here, Flooding usually goes hand in hand with ignition on its way out, so I wouldn't hold that against the Rotary, just on a crappy coil design. If they are handing out new (already broken in 3k+ mile) test cars, that wouldn't be an issue at all.
Also I was referring to the new Rotary, which would hopefully have more torque, fuel economy, etc. Not to mention it would feel faster as the Miata is lighter by 1\4 ton.
Lastly, I've driven an NC, and to be honest, I couldn't really tell much of a difference in acceleration from the 8.
Miata felt like it was always fast, but never got faster, and the 8 feels like it starts off quick, gets fast, then goes faster.

People with sense get a Tune-Up when the car feels sluggish, winter time, or when its advertised (mechs always tune up specials), which includes gaping or replacing plugs. I know people who tune up every winter, I know mechanics who recommend it during emissions inspections, so yeah, a spark plug change is fairly common for any car.

Mazda definitely needs to, and I believe with the DI research, is focusing on the ignition system.

That + your avatar = :rofl:

By the way, we had a direct injection rotary project within the last few years and we also identified tough issues related to wankel peculiarities like the sweeping of the chamber and the dynamics created by having extra holes added.

Paul.

You mean that engine they have not got working right yet?

Wanna bet some 70 year old guy that knew nothing of rotaries couldn't flood it?

I don't know anyone that accepts changing plugs every winter or even 30k. Plugs last 70-100k nowadays... as you said.... welcome to 2006 or even 2010 if you prefer.

My first four RX had to have spark plugs cleaned gaped or changed every 4K so I'm happy with 37K! Rotary engines are very hard on spark plugs but spark plugs have improved immensely. We all suffer for our Rotary engines. The people that bought for the outer beauty of the car lose more because they never enjoy it's high revving engine. Mazda made this car around the Rotary and I like it.

Might want to include some ear plugs with that test group. Even though they could know nothing about a rotary engine or maybe never even heard of it, I would think the sound while driving would give it away that there was something different under the hood.

Not working right, and not up to the high standards they set for themselves are two different things.
It works, but they want more. They want more torque, and want lower emissions.
Another stated issue is the RPM doesn't go as high as they would like. For all any of us know they could be shooting for 300 lb\ft, 40 MPG, and 12k RPM. At the end of the day, the 16X is probably better in every way than the current Renny, but Mazda wants it to be even better.

If the ignition system was up to snuff, I'd take that bet. He'll, I've tried to flood an 8 a few times and I couldn't, yet a friends father flooded his, we did washer fluid method on it, and shortly after, he flooded it himself. Wanna guess what the problem was?... Plugs were fouled, and we replaced the coils for shiggles.

Like I said, most mechanics recommend replacing that stuff during an inspection. Note, its not even covered in an inspection, but, they make money off it, so they do it anyway. Most people listen to their mechanic foolishly, thus they do it without even realizing it. Even more people get a Tune-Up as a part of their winterizing, he'll, even I used to until I learned.

@77Mjd: I hadn't thought of the sound, but its one thing to know the sound is different, but it takes a totally different person to know what that sound really is. Even if it was suspected as a rotary, just deny it.

SG, that would be a pretty hefty goal to wring out 1/3 + more tq and double the MPG at the same time... and have less emmisions to boot. Why don't we throw in
it makes you ice cream as well? :worship:

That new ignition system that keeps you from flooding, doesn't that just push all the unspent fuel into your cat while you deflood it? Seems that would just cause other issues down the road.

Ice cream wouldn't be too hard... just have to make sure you keep stirring the ice till it's done...

>_>
<_<

An "RX-5" Miata really sounds like a Good Idea, even if only with the Renny. As far as maintenance is concerned, I doubt if any 1.3l motor making ~230 hp will ever make the gold standard, which is something like my 99 Solara 4-cyl. It's gone now 148,000 miles with exactly one trip to the shop at 125k to do timing belt, valve adj, and replace the cat and a rusted out exhaust. Zero no-starts, trip interrupts, stalling, flooding or any other kind of misbehavior. I've replaced the battery once, the spark plugs once, one set of front pads/rotors, and 3 sets of tires. That's it. Runs a quiet, no-rattle, 30 mpg cruise on the interstate, has room for 4 adults and a huge trunk. Boring yes, but in a good sort of way, the way ~ 3/4 of the car-buying public wants it. With a ~135 hp, iron block, 2.4L engine I'm betting this thing runs the next 148k miles without much trouble. Except for the body parts, my 1978 RX-4 was similar, including making only 110 hp from its 13b. At 200-300 hp, the 13b is really pushing the limits and will never reach a gold-standard reliability. A 200 hp 3-rotor might, but there's no market for that.

Come to think of it, you do have the frothy oil dipstick thing in the winter. Kinda looks like a milkshake?

Sigh, thats what we call an example..., doesn't mean thats what they are going for. especially on the MPG side of things.
Direct injection actually burns more fuel, and burns it better, so their would be no fuel in which to flood the engine with.

Side note, when I was test driving 8's, the guy who pulled the car out turned it on and off (I swore he was gonna flood it) , then I turned it on, no problems , stalled, on, stalled again. drove to the gas station, off, on, stalled, then drove it fine for about 20 mins.
it was an 04 with 93k. All that didn't flood it, and that was with a bad clutch. You really can't flood these things even if you try, unless the ignition is going bad, OR Compression is low already.

that wasn't an example then... it was a hypothetical excuse.

Sigh.....

see.. I can do that sigh thing too....

You can't sigh at Red! He'll eat you!

I can get in my 140,000 mile 20 year old RX-7, start it up then shut it off and not worry about it flooding. Not even in winter. What rotary flooding problem? It's only an issue when something goes wrong. On the older cars that had much more powerful ignition systems, you flooded when your injectors started leaking. The nice thing about DI is that even less fuel would be needed to start and keep it running which means even less likeliness of flooding.

The issue isn't that the 16X isn't as good or better than the Renesis or even that it has any flaws or issues at all. It is probably more advanced than any other rotary to date. In case anyone has been blind to what is going on in the world, people are wanting higher gas mileage cars and tree huggers are pushing for higher and higher mileage figures and lower emissions with their ultimate goal of human extinction in order to "save the planet". Mileage standards are rising faster than ever before while emissions rules get more and more strict. What was good enough for a rotary 5 years ago no longer applies. It needs to get a whole lot better.

I still think the best option would be a smaller turbocharged rotary with the same dimension width to height ratio as a 16X. Ultimately if we still see a rotary, it will probably either be powered by dog turds, err, I mean Hydrogen, or it will be in a hybrid or as a generator range extender.

I thought that with the patents that were found we were now designating the Engine 16B?

i can envision a few problems getting the 16X to work.
1- rotory wash (less lubrication, fuel contamients in the oil etc)?
2- one fuel injector to handle all the fuel range for 3 rotor faces? That would be one hell of an injector
3- additional holes in the housing--that cant be good?
4- if they change the site of the injectors then may not be enough time for the combustion mixture to "settle" before the spark.?
5- the centrificual force of the longer stroke sure will increase the stressors on bearing etc.?
OD

One of the "cold" (snicker) nights we had here in Phoenix Ray and I were goofing around and tried to flood my own car on purpose. We must have started the car and shut it off about 6 times. No flooding. In fact I don't recall anyone with the BHR upgrade having flooded their car.

Flooding? what Flooding?

mine never did :)

I shut that shit off cold (is 25 degrees cold enough?) mad times, pull it out of garage, wash it, leave it there for a day or 2, turn it on, move it back into garage. hmm no flooding.

For the record, Piston engines can flood too. but due design + gravity, Its hard for fuel to stay too long above the piston.

A better chrome plating would help maintain the oil film. Mazda has steadily improved the chrome plating since at least the series 3 Rx-7 13B.

If you look closely at the 16X prototype engine pics, the secondary injectors are in the side housings, in the old primary positions. Besides, the 12a Turbo and the original 6 port 13B-EGI had only two injectors
There may be a very minor loss of compression, but they will try to keep the hole small. The trailing plugs have a pretty small hole.

It's still staged injection, see above comment. That's the very reason why Mazda went to injector staging in the 86 model Rx-7's.

Well that's the problem with any longer stroke engine. And that's probably why we've been hearing rumors that the 16X is/was not revving high enough.

Multi-piece E-shaft for the win!
Just add a center bearing and I would think it would solve the problem.