Diesel Variant of the 16x?
03-09-2010, 02:53 PM
#27
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Last edited by Renesis_8; 09-11-2011 at 03:35 PM.
03-09-2010, 09:54 PM
#28
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My only concern about a Diesel engine would be redline. I could live with 7.5-8k, but wouldn't a higher displacement rotary diesel equal about a 6.5k or less redline? It would feel more like a smooth VQ than a rotary. I could have it fucked up though, I'm no expert.
03-09-2010, 10:47 PM
#29
I'd really be interested in comparing characteristics of a rotary diesel compared to gas, piston diesel, and gas rotary.
1) horsepower/torque
2)distribution of above
3) sound
4) heat
5) mileage
6) reliability
I'm sure someone has an idea as to predict some of those and RG has already covered some a bit. Obviously speculation is just for fun and means nothing until we have at least a concept/prototype.
edit: another aspect of power that would be interesting would be engine size compared to power.
1) horsepower/torque
2)distribution of above
3) sound
4) heat
5) mileage
6) reliability
I'm sure someone has an idea as to predict some of those and RG has already covered some a bit. Obviously speculation is just for fun and means nothing until we have at least a concept/prototype.
edit: another aspect of power that would be interesting would be engine size compared to power.
04-20-2010, 11:50 AM
#30
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Motortrend has more info on potential 16x Diesel/dual fuel in new RX-7
Sports Car to Get All-New Rotary That Runs On Gas -- or Diesel!
April 20, 2010 / By Peter Lyon
If you thought Mazda's RX-7 replacement was dead, think again. A source based in Hiroshima confirms that the company is testing an RX-7 prototype and that one mule is powered by a bi-fuel rotary which can run on either gas or diesel. Mazda's evaluation department has reportedly invited several external drivers and racers to test the mules, while the design team has sought feedback on ideas from potential buyers at top secret customer clinics.
But, as our source explains, the green light for production has not yet been handed down from the top. That's because Mazda's engineers, wanting to keep the rotary alive, have not quite worked out the best combination of performance, fuel economy and emissions.
Our source tells that the next generation 16X rotary, as it's called inside the company, has achieved significant improvements in fuel efficiency but still lacks the strong top end punch Mazda is striving for. Other issues include oil consumption -- the current RX-8 rotary swallows burns more oil than it should. Power for the 16X is expected to clear 300 hp, with 0-60 mph acceleration times dropping to under 5.0 seconds.
Intriguingly, the 2-stroke 16X rotary prototype does not seem to mind what fuel it sips, which is why Mazda engineers are proposing it be set up to run on either gas or diesel. In fact, some industry types say that the rotary can run on just about anything, even castor oil. With this combination, Mazda hopes to rectify the prototype's shortcomings.
A recent independent survey revealed that demand for an affordable rotary powered sports car is still as strong as it's ever been in the U.S. If it wasn't for the U.S. market, and more precisely Mazda North American Operations, which continues to push for the introduction of a new RX-7, the car would have been shelved years ago. But the RX-7 lives, and Mazda has even given us some hints as to what the new car might look like, with expressive sheet metal echoing the avant-garde surfacing of concepts such as the Kabura and Furai.
http://www.motortrend.com/future/fut...x_7/index.html
April 20, 2010 / By Peter Lyon
If you thought Mazda's RX-7 replacement was dead, think again. A source based in Hiroshima confirms that the company is testing an RX-7 prototype and that one mule is powered by a bi-fuel rotary which can run on either gas or diesel. Mazda's evaluation department has reportedly invited several external drivers and racers to test the mules, while the design team has sought feedback on ideas from potential buyers at top secret customer clinics.
But, as our source explains, the green light for production has not yet been handed down from the top. That's because Mazda's engineers, wanting to keep the rotary alive, have not quite worked out the best combination of performance, fuel economy and emissions.
Our source tells that the next generation 16X rotary, as it's called inside the company, has achieved significant improvements in fuel efficiency but still lacks the strong top end punch Mazda is striving for. Other issues include oil consumption -- the current RX-8 rotary swallows burns more oil than it should. Power for the 16X is expected to clear 300 hp, with 0-60 mph acceleration times dropping to under 5.0 seconds.
Intriguingly, the 2-stroke 16X rotary prototype does not seem to mind what fuel it sips, which is why Mazda engineers are proposing it be set up to run on either gas or diesel. In fact, some industry types say that the rotary can run on just about anything, even castor oil. With this combination, Mazda hopes to rectify the prototype's shortcomings.
A recent independent survey revealed that demand for an affordable rotary powered sports car is still as strong as it's ever been in the U.S. If it wasn't for the U.S. market, and more precisely Mazda North American Operations, which continues to push for the introduction of a new RX-7, the car would have been shelved years ago. But the RX-7 lives, and Mazda has even given us some hints as to what the new car might look like, with expressive sheet metal echoing the avant-garde surfacing of concepts such as the Kabura and Furai.
http://www.motortrend.com/future/fut...x_7/index.html
04-21-2010, 11:37 PM
#35
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a turbo diesel would be ideal ... the turbo could be used to either increase fuel economy or hp with adjustable tunes / upgrades it really is a win win situation .. plus diesel is everywhere already. perhaps even converting the old rx-8 tot he new engine would drive up interest in the rx8 which by 2013 ... not much more could happen power wise ... however crate engines would be in high demand .. another way for Mazda to generate revenue // perhaps we can take a lesson from the rest of the world and utilize the suedo hybrid tech .. can doesn't use fuel at idle -- small electric motor turns engine -- very popular on diesel trucks these days. -- fuel savings are amazing ...
04-22-2010, 12:21 AM
#36
Guys, as european (and daily diesel user) i'm shocked about the recent news...
......i'm just thinking about the implication and the possible cars builded around a rotary diesel engine....
I'm serious doubting about its "sportiness"......
......i'm just thinking about the implication and the possible cars builded around a rotary diesel engine....I'm serious doubting about its "sportiness"......
Last edited by MattMPS; 04-22-2010 at 07:08 AM.
04-22-2010, 10:55 PM
#41
Administrator
hmmm remember this? https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...ht=deep+recess
could be the LDR is for diesel.....I wonder if Mazda has a recentish SAE paper on diesel or LDR
could be the LDR is for diesel.....I wonder if Mazda has a recentish SAE paper on diesel or LDR
04-23-2010, 06:26 AM
#42
Londons Yellow Peril
well they may make a diesel rotor for a new car, with a "supersport" petrol version maybe?
The diesel would enable bulk sales (at right price..similar to RX8s success and initial high sales) but the sport version would be a little more expensive and more power focussed??
Mind you it depends how easy it is to do 2 versions?
The diesel would enable bulk sales (at right price..similar to RX8s success and initial high sales) but the sport version would be a little more expensive and more power focussed??
Mind you it depends how easy it is to do 2 versions?
04-23-2010, 07:11 AM
#43
Two big parts of why diesel vehicles get better fuel economy is the fact that diesel contains more energy, and they run at much leaner AFRs.
Would running at 16+ AFR be a natural result of simply using diesel as fuel, or would the design of the rotary engine still require it to run at 14?
Would running at 16+ AFR be a natural result of simply using diesel as fuel, or would the design of the rotary engine still require it to run at 14?
04-23-2010, 09:02 PM
#45
If they are setting this up the way I think they are, they won't have to. I think they will use spark ignition in combination with direct injection. It would be the first time I've heard of a spark-ignition heavy oil (diesel) engine in a non-military vehicle (bear in mind that numerous pilot-less drones use spark ignition with the same standardised heavy oil fuel that fuels HMMVS).
04-23-2010, 11:48 PM
#46
the diesel will be spark ignited, no doubt about that.
one of the reasons why this engine could take gas or diesel is because the technologies for each are converging. Diesel engines have many of the same sensors as gas engines and gas engines have many of the same fuel system components as diesels. Both engines also have to meet the same emissions standards.
one of the reasons why this engine could take gas or diesel is because the technologies for each are converging. Diesel engines have many of the same sensors as gas engines and gas engines have many of the same fuel system components as diesels. Both engines also have to meet the same emissions standards.
04-24-2010, 06:17 AM
#47
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the diesel will be spark ignited, no doubt about that.
one of the reasons why this engine could take gas or diesel is because the technologies for each are converging. Diesel engines have many of the same sensors as gas engines and gas engines have many of the same fuel system components as diesels. Both engines also have to meet the same emissions standards.
one of the reasons why this engine could take gas or diesel is because the technologies for each are converging. Diesel engines have many of the same sensors as gas engines and gas engines have many of the same fuel system components as diesels. Both engines also have to meet the same emissions standards.
Last edited by robrecht; 04-24-2010 at 06:22 AM.
05-04-2010, 11:44 AM
#48
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It'd be very nice if this would work; running more energy-dense fuel (diesel has more energy/gallon than gasoline) would certainly help performance and mileage, and if the lubricating properties of diesel helped seal life and engine reliability, too, so much the better. Assuming this even makes sense, emissions would still be a concern. It doesn't have to run nearly as rich, but incomplete combustion would be a real problem, I'd think.
In addition, I'm not sure the rev/torque issue would be at all comparable in a spark-ignited rotary running diesel fuel versus a compression-ignited piston engine on the same fuel. Compression-ignition piston engines (i.e. traditional diesel engines) have longer pistons to get the compression they need, resulting in longer crankshaft arms, increased torque, and lower top engine speeds. If you do spark ignition of diesel fuel though (is that really sensical? not my expertise at *all*), though, you're not necessarily changing the engine geometry in the way that causes the torque/RPM tradeoff when you move to diesel fuel in compression-ignition piston engine.
Anyway, it would be really interesting if Mazda could make it work, but if they go that route, then the 16X is even further out I would think...
In addition, I'm not sure the rev/torque issue would be at all comparable in a spark-ignited rotary running diesel fuel versus a compression-ignited piston engine on the same fuel. Compression-ignition piston engines (i.e. traditional diesel engines) have longer pistons to get the compression they need, resulting in longer crankshaft arms, increased torque, and lower top engine speeds. If you do spark ignition of diesel fuel though (is that really sensical? not my expertise at *all*), though, you're not necessarily changing the engine geometry in the way that causes the torque/RPM tradeoff when you move to diesel fuel in compression-ignition piston engine.
Anyway, it would be really interesting if Mazda could make it work, but if they go that route, then the 16X is even further out I would think...
05-04-2010, 11:48 AM
#49
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Quick followup: Mazda seems to already have been doing work on low-compression engines running diesel fuels...
http://detnews.com/article/20100409/...ake-on-hybrids
Update/Note: though these are still piston engines, if mazda has the expertise in low-compression engines and diesel fuels, and this makes sense for the rotary, it could be an interesting convergence.
*Sigh* I should have read the initial article more closely before posting - it already comments on previous rotary spark-ignited diesels fuel engines, so I guess it is possible.
Anyway, the increased mileage and performance would be nice.
http://detnews.com/article/20100409/...ake-on-hybrids
Update/Note: though these are still piston engines, if mazda has the expertise in low-compression engines and diesel fuels, and this makes sense for the rotary, it could be an interesting convergence.
*Sigh* I should have read the initial article more closely before posting - it already comments on previous rotary spark-ignited diesels fuel engines, so I guess it is possible.
Anyway, the increased mileage and performance would be nice.
Last edited by PatrickB; 05-04-2010 at 11:56 AM.
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