Beginning of the end of the beginning : C&D sports coupe comparo
02-24-2009, 12:16 PM
#26
I LuV mY Rotary....
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I agree, but I think the biggest thing the rotary has going against it is the MPGs. The fact that there are already 300+ hp cars out there that can get close to 30 highway works against Mazda. It will be interesting to see what numbers the 16x puts out, but a fairly large improvement in MPG almost seems necessary at least for highway driving.
As far as performance, I really think if the 8 as it stands today with the 13b had another 50lbs of torque, it would be perfect. As for the 16x, I'd say if they could add 50hp, 50 lbs of torque and subtract 100lbs from the weight of the car it would be perfect.
As far as performance, I really think if the 8 as it stands today with the 13b had another 50lbs of torque, it would be perfect. As for the 16x, I'd say if they could add 50hp, 50 lbs of torque and subtract 100lbs from the weight of the car it would be perfect.
02-24-2009, 12:35 PM
#28
doin' the bull dance
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02-24-2009, 12:48 PM
#29
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Somehow I doubt the 16X will be the Messiah for the rotary engine and therefore the rx-n. Mazda quoted about 270hp to 300hp. That's pretty pedestrian in today's sports coupe/car arena where even a Hyundai can deliver that. In a few year's time the 400Z will show up with 400hp while the 135i will follow suit.
So perhaps folks need to just accept the fact that rotary cars will always be less powerful than its typical rivals but makes up for it in other areas like handling and aesthetics.
So perhaps folks need to just accept the fact that rotary cars will always be less powerful than its typical rivals but makes up for it in other areas like handling and aesthetics.
As you say, it'll make up for it. Aside from the rotary, Mazda's DNA is tied to light cars, and they work at that hard. Mazda success has been tied to making their car's weight complement the engine. Being eco-trendy, Mazda deserves kudos for it's dedication to lightness, but their DNA is really after the handling benefits from lightness.
A 270-300HP, 2800lb 16X..with RX-8 or better handling? Sign me up....I'd "accept those facts" with pleasure and enjoy the overweight competition in every turn!
..
02-24-2009, 01:17 PM
#30
280 hp and 300 is plenty fast for NA with a car that still handles like a beast.
judging a car based on its Horses i think is like judging a girl on her Breasts alone, your not looking at what makes her beautiful.
....damn... thats some deep **** im writing that down.
judging a car based on its Horses i think is like judging a girl on her Breasts alone, your not looking at what makes her beautiful.
....damn... thats some deep **** im writing that down.
02-24-2009, 01:50 PM
#32
It's Not Easy Being Green
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And just reiterating a point made a few hundred thousand times before.
It's not about horsepower. It's about power to weight ratio and balance. If the 16x has 270hp and is put on a 3200lb car with 55/45 balance people will be disappointed.
If it has 270hp and is put on a 2700lb car with 50/50 balance and a fully adjustable suspension it'll destroy the cars listed in almost every category.
All of those cars make some significant sacrifices in order to get the straight line speed or the luxury branding. Mazda has an opportunity to produce something that can crush them in 'contests' like this one.
It's not about horsepower. It's about power to weight ratio and balance. If the 16x has 270hp and is put on a 3200lb car with 55/45 balance people will be disappointed.
If it has 270hp and is put on a 2700lb car with 50/50 balance and a fully adjustable suspension it'll destroy the cars listed in almost every category.
All of those cars make some significant sacrifices in order to get the straight line speed or the luxury branding. Mazda has an opportunity to produce something that can crush them in 'contests' like this one.
02-24-2009, 09:50 PM
#33
Super Moderator
IF the 16X, and IF it makes it to a production car, IMO it will be in an ultra Stiff chassis (AKA MX-5 ) and above all a lightweight body totaling no more than 2500 lb's...
Then you will see 300HP and Better Fuel economy, but forget it if you think a 1.6 litre is going to have a Hugely improved MPG over the 1.3 RX-8, you will see 20-25% on Gentle Cycle!,
Hard or Heavy Cycle you will see next to no MPG improvement.
Japan is now in a depression, so their car market is shot to pieces.
At the moment I can't see a viable position for ANY new RX~
Then you will see 300HP and Better Fuel economy, but forget it if you think a 1.6 litre is going to have a Hugely improved MPG over the 1.3 RX-8, you will see 20-25% on Gentle Cycle!,
Hard or Heavy Cycle you will see next to no MPG improvement.
Japan is now in a depression, so their car market is shot to pieces.
At the moment I can't see a viable position for ANY new RX~
02-24-2009, 10:06 PM
#34
Momentum Keeps Me Going
- Caymen / Caymen S
- 370Z
- Genesis Coupe
- TT
These are revised or new to market. Poor timing? Bad planning? Or just smart marketing to get buyer excitment level up to buying again? A competitive sports car image car is what Mazda is missing now. If they don't have that, what do they have...Toyota clones? and I doubt the MS3 is a truly a player against any of the above.
02-24-2009, 10:21 PM
#36
Super Moderator
Yes, the S2 RX-8 was already planned and in production...
So was all the other cars you listed..
Would a car maker today take a risk?...I don't know.
Its' obvious Honda, Subaru and many others pulling out of motorsport to save $$ss.
Honda scrapped the NSX and new S2000 before final production.
Will Toyota and Subaru bring out their new MX-5 beater?..now?
So was all the other cars you listed..
Would a car maker today take a risk?...I don't know.
Its' obvious Honda, Subaru and many others pulling out of motorsport to save $$ss.
Honda scrapped the NSX and new S2000 before final production.
Will Toyota and Subaru bring out their new MX-5 beater?..now?
02-24-2009, 10:44 PM
#37
RX-8 = Japanese MG
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I still can't believe BMW sells the 135i & 335i with an open diff!!!
02-25-2009, 07:32 AM
#38
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280 hp and 300 is plenty fast for NA with a car that still handles like a beast.
judging a car based on its Horses i think is like judging a girl on her Breasts alone, your not looking at what makes her beautiful.
....damn... thats some deep **** im writing that down.
judging a car based on its Horses i think is like judging a girl on her Breasts alone, your not looking at what makes her beautiful.
....damn... thats some deep **** im writing that down.
Gotta look at the whole package first...
02-25-2009, 11:47 AM
#41
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Maybe they can fit the next RX with its 16X with one of them low pressure turbo's for improved efficiency standard, and then also offer a more aggressive turbo setting as an option for competitive level power.
Sound feasible?
Sound feasible?
02-25-2009, 12:10 PM
#43
Administrator
IF the 16X, and IF it makes it to a production car, IMO it will be in an ultra Stiff chassis (AKA MX-5 ) and above all a lightweight body totaling no more than 2500 lb's...
Then you will see 300HP and Better Fuel economy, but forget it if you think a 1.6 litre is going to have a Hugely improved MPG over the 1.3 RX-8, you will see 20-25% on Gentle Cycle!,
Hard or Heavy Cycle you will see next to no MPG improvement.
Then you will see 300HP and Better Fuel economy, but forget it if you think a 1.6 litre is going to have a Hugely improved MPG over the 1.3 RX-8, you will see 20-25% on Gentle Cycle!,
Hard or Heavy Cycle you will see next to no MPG improvement.
02-25-2009, 12:39 PM
#44
Super Moderator
Me No.
Rotary DI is new territory, I have not seen exact figures showing Fuel improvements , mine is an "experienced guess", so called improvements Mazda has made with fuel economy over the last 30 years has not lived up to the hype....ie it is not quite what they say in real driving, then again is any car makers claims.
Do you have any news about DI, I have heard nothing for some time.
Rotary DI is new territory, I have not seen exact figures showing Fuel improvements , mine is an "experienced guess", so called improvements Mazda has made with fuel economy over the last 30 years has not lived up to the hype....ie it is not quite what they say in real driving, then again is any car makers claims.
Do you have any news about DI, I have heard nothing for some time.
02-25-2009, 03:16 PM
#45
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To be in that crowd says alot about the 8. As others pointed out, the 8 is relatively the same car it was in 2003, while the Z and 135 are brand new models with new technology and putting down considerably more power.
I do agree with others in that if Mazda doesnt improve the rotary on the hp front, doom will come real soon.
I do agree with others in that if Mazda doesnt improve the rotary on the hp front, doom will come real soon.
02-25-2009, 04:16 PM
#46
Power!!
Me No.
Rotary DI is new territory, I have not seen exact figures showing Fuel improvements , mine is an "experienced guess", so called improvements Mazda has made with fuel economy over the last 30 years has not lived up to the hype....ie it is not quite what they say in real driving, then again is any car makers claims.
Do you have any news about DI, I have heard nothing for some time.
Rotary DI is new territory, I have not seen exact figures showing Fuel improvements , mine is an "experienced guess", so called improvements Mazda has made with fuel economy over the last 30 years has not lived up to the hype....ie it is not quite what they say in real driving, then again is any car makers claims.
Do you have any news about DI, I have heard nothing for some time.
My original bet on the 16x is 287hp at the flywheel.
02-26-2009, 03:10 PM
#47
Registered
Interesting review, but mainly because of the cars in comparison. I actually finished watching it thinking another angle of conclusion could have been drawn. All of those reviewed are performance cars that share considerable overlap and performance but off distinctly different styling and power delivery/handling characteristics. In fact to me, these qualities are far more distinct than the performance figures betweent the cars. In short, any of them would be a great choice, it's simply what characteristic of the car most appeals to you. We live in an age where there is plenty variety AND bang for your buck; the buyer is spoilt for choice like never before.
02-26-2009, 07:57 PM
#49
since FI has been now proven to be a fairly solid mod--temps under control etc. a s.c low boost R3 as I have said before--would fly off the showroom floor. and it will get 23-24 mpg.
But Mazda is not going to do it. rx8---- maybe one/two more years if things dont change.
OD
But Mazda is not going to do it. rx8---- maybe one/two more years if things dont change.
OD
02-26-2009, 08:41 PM
#50
Super Moderator
OD,
And all to do with cost, does the SC or FI (small turbo) create any emission issues?
And all to do with cost, does the SC or FI (small turbo) create any emission issues?