ArvinC

Hello all.

Just got my latest Autoweek and read in the Motorsports News section that Mazda desires to return to Sports Car racing in the American LeMans Series. I tried to search Autoweeks web-site for the article, but could not find a link to it.

Anyway, it basicaly says that Mazda wants to enter the ALMS in one of the LM Prototype divisions, but does not rule out entering the RX-8 in the GT division as well if the organizers of ALMS change the rule to allow four-door cars in that specification. It is thought that ALMS organizers are looking to do that anyway, as it will bring Cadillac, Lexus, Audi and others into the GT series. Mazda must have some serious engine tuning and mods ready for the Renesis, because even the "lightly-tuned" GT class cars run around with 450+ HP.

I think this bodes well for Mazda. They are already an official Marketing Sponsor of the AMLS and their Mazda Star Series (spec-formula cars that run our beloved Renesis engines!) runs before the main-event races on the AMLS weekends. There is a noticable lack of Japaneese manufacturers running full-on factory efforts in sports car racing...if Mazda enters and is competitive, it will really go far in re-establishing Mazda as the true Japanees performance brand.

Arvin

Truss

This would be a wonderful development. Racing truly improves the breed, so the RX-8 could only benefit from such a development.

Man, Mazda is so cool these days...

T.

Labop

4 door in GT series...., what will be next? I fully expect to see horned-winged things flying outside the window. I hope they can do it though. It'd be nice to see as they have good coverage of the ALMS on Speed.

shelleys_man_06

HA!! I knew my dreams would come true :D. I remembered I had made a post not too long ago about this. People laughed, but I still believed .

https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-media-news-11/mazda-factory-alms-33074/

unorthodox

I guess you missed my post... here is how they are going to get their 400 something HP...

https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-discussion-3/3-rotor-engines-available-34558/

CERAMICSEAL

Absolutely correct! The 3 rotor is the ticket and it is legal for usage in the ALMS.
If Mazda makes some components available people can consider racing rotaries in that class. 450hp is pretty standard stuff for the 3rotor in endurance trim.

shelleys_man_06

Why is everyone so insistent on a 3-rotor RENESIS-based engine? IMO, if Mazda was going to run a homogolated RX-8 (hopefully RE-Amemiya will have one ready for the 2005 JGTC ), they would most definitely run a 3-rotor. Since ALMS is a circuit racing series, wouldn't they have to use peripheral ports on both the intake and exhaust sides? I imagine Mazda wanted to keep power on or near the top end, and peripheral porting is the key. As for a production 3-rotor RENESIS, I don't think so. BTW, even if Mazda goes through with it, I will still root for Pratt & Miller in the GTS Class .

wakeech

no, not necessarily, and they probably wouldn't even be allowed (wouldn't be the first time, considering you can make +300 hp all-motor on any p-port 13B no problem). if it was a p-port turbo 2 rotor, they would have absolutely no trouble hitting 500hp for only a 12 hour race, even with restrictors. hell, even with only side ports, or bridge ports (if they go back to the old school apex seal height) 500 hp isn't a stretch.

CERAMICSEAL

In normally aspirated trim only the peripheral port version will create 500hp, and that would only be wise for sprint applications (1 - 4 hours).

wakeech

you mean a p-port 3 rotor hitting 500hp??

i'd be sorely disappointed if it'd only run for 4 hours... i didn't think that'd be asking too much.

*smacks head* what the hell?? why dont' we just go back and look at all the IMSA engines and what they did there.

how long were the IMSA races?? not endurance, surely...

wakeech

oh, nope.

http://me.a-spec.ca:6001/Past/Rotary/85RX7.html

this here says that Mazda competed in the GTO class at Daytona 24H numerous times with an all-motor 3 rotor.

woah, forget that page, here's a great one with super nice pics:
http://www.speedarena.com/news/publi...ter_3903.shtml

oh, and here's the best goddamned page i've ever seen about Mazda race engines, NOTE ALL THE INFORMATION ON E-SHAFT CONSTRUCTION AND WHY IT'S TOUGH TO MAKE A 3 OR 4 ROTOR ENGINE:
http://cp_www.tripod.com/rotary/pg03.htm#13J
http://cp_www.tripod.com/rotary/pg19.htm

wakeech

nono, that's the Mazda Star racing series. just like the Toyota Atlantics, but they've completely castrated the engines to keep them a little bit slower than the Atlantics (if you didn't limit them so much they'd be much faster, not considerably cheaper to own and operate), limiting the engine to 6000 rpm (it's like the high-power engine with the oomph of the auto).

notice in all those links (above) how many things there are that there could be to improve.

anyone who thinks the mazda wankel type has reached its limit doesn't have a clue: there's sooooooo much room to develop.

CERAMICSEAL

Wakeech, where do you get your info from? Oh, actually you just revealed it.
Have you ever built a rotary yourself? Have you had the pleasure of seeing the header glow white hot at 1800 degrees farenheit of a 3 or 4 rotor engine on the dyno?
I speak mostly based upon what I've personally seen and experienced: 3 rotors generally produce 450 to 480hp, 4 rotors - 600 to 650hp. I'm not saying they haven't produced more than that (Even 15 years ago) but I am saying not much has transpired in the rotary racing world since then.Very little progress. Presently you cannot acquire 'g' rotors (Super light weight pieces that used to be available from Mazda Comp. There are no 3 rotor race motors available. None!
Motorsports hands are so tied right now in terms of spending it's not even funny.
It is true that Mazda has recently petitioned the relevant sactioning bodies to allow the 3 rotor to be legal, I'm just waiting to see how this plays out. Will they produce the parts or will they tell interested parties to make do with what they can scrounge together?
I will be the most excited to see rotaries campigning and waiving the checkered flag on this entire forum.
Keech, if you'd like to see and hear a bonafide 26b in a famous race car privately next week pm me. You can come stay with me and I'll reveal my sources.

8pex

I was surprised in this article they didn't mention the 1991 mazda victory at le mans. BTW, it was a 4 rotor.

ranger4277

Where did you get this info? Not that I don't believe you, but I'd like to see this for myself from a source more credible than your good word. (which is very good by the way )

rotary-convert

Did the Mazda Le Mans winner have s-port or p-port motor? From adverisments I've seen in magazines and such it says the 1991 winner had the exact same technology as the RENESIS, I inferred that it meant it was a side port, or do they mean the SDAIS system?
I have some questions then......
Why would they not run a s-port motor? Is it a availibity/reliability issue or is it the fact that p-ports have better exhaust flow/ harder pulses henceforth it is easier to increase power than with a side?(ie turbo-ing the 13b) Could a better manifold or somehow messing with air flow mitigate that hurdle?
I'm hardly well-read in this subject, I get all my info from all yall's posts so don't tear into me like white on rice.
Thanks
D

shelleys_man_06

I have an article about the R26B. If you pm me I can email it to you. Also check out Craig's Rotary Page .

http://cp_www.tripod.com/rotary/index.htm

BTW, this is my 700th post :D.

wakeech

well i certainly hope for the latter. i had no idea that the "g" rotors were lighter!! a different alloy (non-ferrous)?? a different method of manufacture (forged)?? what's the big difference??

oh, www.rotarynews.com (i'm a subscriber... support Bern & Dan!!). it was through this site that i found RX8club.com those couple years ago.

oh, pardon me, the rev limit is 6,800 rpm which just kills the power on these motors (which you can see how big a difference there is for yourself, try shifting before 7k and then at 9k redline), keeping them slower than the Atlantics. link here.

the R26B was a p-port motor, and the reason they didn't run side ports was because you do get a whole lot better flow than the side port, and really don't quote me on this, but it appears to me that the side housings were also thinner (as they didn't have to accomodate great big ports) saving a little space and mass.

the technology thing is definitely the SDAIS, replicating a vairiable length intake system without mechanically moving parts (which would be completely impossible to implement for a road going car... heck, even the old vacuum operated tertiary port actuators in the series 5 motors would gum up with stuff over time, so you could imagine what would happen with a complex cable, pully, and track system).

ranger4277

Thanks wakeech. That rev limit surprises me. What I want to know now is if they're putting out 240HP @ 6800 rpm, what can the engine do at 9600?

wakeech

nope, about as much power as the engine you have under your hood puts out at 6800 rpm. the tertiary valves are next to useless. i'm not sure what the rules are for fiddling with the motor governors, but i'm pretty sure they don't have the fuel curves as screwed up as you owners do.

David Haskell

Hey ceramicseal how many 3-rotor race motors do you have lating around up there?

Dave

ranger4277

Doh! How did I miss this reply?!

** from the rotarynews link **
For the New Pro Formula Mazda with the Renesis Engine, the rev limiter is set at 8,500 RPM. The old cars, which you might have seen, were set at 6,800.
Luis Schiavo
************************

A series driver should know what he is talking about. Back to 3 rotor discussion!

Dave, you're not thinking about putting 3 rotors in your race cars now are you?

CERAMICSEAL

Hey Dave,
greetings good sir. I hope everything is going your way.
There aren't any 3 rotors around 'here' anymore. Dennis Spencer is the king in that department (numerous production and race versions).
There are, however, a few R26Bs hanging around and an interesting championship winning car equipped with the previous generation 4 rotor is alledged to be in a freshening up process close by 'here' (For the manufacturer no less).
Hint, hint.
P.S. Keep up the good work.

wakeech

*shivers down spine*

wakeech

oh, well that would explain it then... but i was sure that they had to be slower than the Toyotas...

toyota atlantic minimum weight = 1265 lbs with driver
engine= HRE prepped 4A-GE, i dunno how many valves (not sure on the power, ~240 or a little more, which is at the very limit for that engine)

mazda pro minimum weight = couldn't find that either, but the mass of the old kart and the sports car as listed on their site was 1160lbs for both. i'm assuming without driver
engine= OE 13B-MSP, makin' ~240 hp as we all know

i'm not sure about you, but to me it doesn't seem that the Atlantics would really be appreciably faster, it'd kinda be down to aero and tyres. *shrug* i coulda sworn i heard about a deal where Star Mazda agreed to detune the cars or something, but if that's not the case then i'm quite happy for it :D. i'd love to see "the little racing series that could" really come out on top and steal away that CART contract.