Autoweek 1Nov11, "Reviving the Rotary"
#30
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It makes sense that mazda sales and profits are down right now. they are retooling for SkyActiv and their car line up is old. As they roll out SA over the next 3-5 years we should see them get back to profitability. "IF" SA is reliable and they get the performance and economy numbers they are promising along with their promised increase in quality...
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#34
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
Natural gas is already a huge market for energy. They'll already be working on the necessary infrastructure to make it happen, regardless of whether or not it becomes a common fuel for vehicles. Here's just one example:
http://www.shell.com/home/content/me..._20052011.html
If I remember correctly, they're spending something in the range of $3 billion for that project.
The US has an amazing natural gas infrastructure. It really wouldn't be hard to develop a market for using it as a fuel here. Basically all that needs to be done is setting up fueling stations. A lot of other nations would depend on having multiple ports with regas facilities but, like I said, a lot of that has been or is being developed for energy purposes anyways.
#35
Super Moderator
We have been selling massive amounts of LNG to China, started around 2005, around $25 Billion every 5 years. Sent in huge ships with 3 or 4 large round pressure/storage tankers (one giant gas bottle).
http://www.gasfund.com.au/
http://www.gasfund.com.au/
Last edited by ASH8; 11-05-2011 at 04:57 AM.
#37
Senior Member
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That's a good point... I didn't even consider the fact that a lot of residential areas have natural gas so it wouldn't be difficult to have in-home fueling. That would just end up being considered a luxury/convenience to the owner, so that would greatly reduce the need for infrastructure costs.
#38
Out of NYC
iTrader: (1)
Well, there's already work in progress. A lot of the facilities to get natural gas are already in existence. The thing that has been in the way in the past has been government regulations. I believe there are currently 2 facilities looking to get approval to export domestic gas, though one is looking like it will have a more difficult time to get approval. The one that should be getting all of its approvals soon is already capable of exporting gas, but it can only export gas that has been imported and stored.
Natural gas is already a huge market for energy. They'll already be working on the necessary infrastructure to make it happen, regardless of whether or not it becomes a common fuel for vehicles. Here's just one example:
http://www.shell.com/home/content/me..._20052011.html
If I remember correctly, they're spending something in the range of $3 billion for that project.
The US has an amazing natural gas infrastructure. It really wouldn't be hard to develop a market for using it as a fuel here. Basically all that needs to be done is setting up fueling stations. A lot of other nations would depend on having multiple ports with regas facilities but, like I said, a lot of that has been or is being developed for energy purposes anyways.
Natural gas is already a huge market for energy. They'll already be working on the necessary infrastructure to make it happen, regardless of whether or not it becomes a common fuel for vehicles. Here's just one example:
http://www.shell.com/home/content/me..._20052011.html
If I remember correctly, they're spending something in the range of $3 billion for that project.
The US has an amazing natural gas infrastructure. It really wouldn't be hard to develop a market for using it as a fuel here. Basically all that needs to be done is setting up fueling stations. A lot of other nations would depend on having multiple ports with regas facilities but, like I said, a lot of that has been or is being developed for energy purposes anyways.
#39
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
building it might be easy, but will people use it is a whole different story. Just look at diesel, no matter how clean they are right now, its so freaking hard to get the america public to use it, even tho its almost everywhere. This really deter the oil companies to sell anything other than fossil fuel.
You'll still face the issues of convincing people to buy a car that requires a different fuel, but natural gas definitely seems like one of the easier options to market. It's generally a cleaner burning fuel and, at least in the US, the infrastructure for distribution is already well developed. With proper marketing, it would be relatively easy to advertise it as the "clean fuel of the future."
I honestly can't say much in regard to specifics of it being used in vehicles though. I know it has been used for some public transportation systems with success, but I haven't really looked into specific emissions numbers, power output or requirements for running an engine off of it. I'm simply making the point that it's a fuel with a reasonable cost, high supply and plenty of infrastructure for domestic and international distribution.
Edit: Forgot to mention... gasoline, diesel and natural gas are all fossil fuel products. They can produce synthetic diesel and natural gas options, but they're still overwhelming from fossil fuels.
Last edited by 8 Maniac; 11-05-2011 at 10:23 PM.
#41
The cheapest way, and therefore the most common way, to produce hydrogen these days is to crack natural gas (which releases CO2). Electrolysis is clean, but most electricity in the USA comes from coal. Makes not a lot of sense.
If you want a CNG car now, Honda will sell you one, as well as the compressor unit required to fuel at home.
http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-natural-gas/
The standard Civic has a range of ~450 miles, the CNG version 190 Miles. Assuming an RX-8 has an advertised range of ~320 miles, and applying the same proportion, a CNG RX-8 would go 135 miles max between fillups.
If you want a CNG car now, Honda will sell you one, as well as the compressor unit required to fuel at home.
http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-natural-gas/
The standard Civic has a range of ~450 miles, the CNG version 190 Miles. Assuming an RX-8 has an advertised range of ~320 miles, and applying the same proportion, a CNG RX-8 would go 135 miles max between fillups.
#42
If one wished to get a bit silly, one could argue that all non-electric cars today are already hydrogen-fueled. The most burnable, energy releasing part comes from 2H + O = H2O. The carbon in fossil fuels in this sense serves to bind the hydrogen with carbon to store it in a convenient storage medium. The greeness factor going from coal to gasoline to CNG, represents progressively less carbon being used to bind an equal amount of hydrogen.
#43
Out of NYC
iTrader: (1)
The cheapest way, and therefore the most common way, to produce hydrogen these days is to crack natural gas (which releases CO2). Electrolysis is clean, but most electricity in the USA comes from coal. Makes not a lot of sense.
If you want a CNG car now, Honda will sell you one, as well as the compressor unit required to fuel at home.
http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-natural-gas/
The standard Civic has a range of ~450 miles, the CNG version 190 Miles. Assuming an RX-8 has an advertised range of ~320 miles, and applying the same proportion, a CNG RX-8 would go 135 miles max between fillups.
If you want a CNG car now, Honda will sell you one, as well as the compressor unit required to fuel at home.
http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-natural-gas/
The standard Civic has a range of ~450 miles, the CNG version 190 Miles. Assuming an RX-8 has an advertised range of ~320 miles, and applying the same proportion, a CNG RX-8 would go 135 miles max between fillups.
so RX-8 will get what? 120 ? lol
#44
Out of NYC
iTrader: (1)
Isnt Hong Kong's taxi a good example of massive LPG vehicle use? and here are some info.
http://www.crown-motors.com/eng/toyo...l.aspx?id=137#
http://www.fuelture.com/magazine/LPG-Taxi-s/
http://www.devb.gov.hk/en/publicatio...x_id_1537.html
http://www.devb.gov.hk/filemanager/e...37/article.pdf
http://www.crown-motors.com/eng/toyo...l.aspx?id=137#
http://www.fuelture.com/magazine/LPG-Taxi-s/
http://www.devb.gov.hk/en/publicatio...x_id_1537.html
http://www.devb.gov.hk/filemanager/e...37/article.pdf
it's not the best thing but they don't have much choice. and their life depends on the quality of the CNG they put in. there was an incident about a year or 2 ago the one of the CNG brand wasn't as "purify" as it should be and it killed almost all Taxis and vans there and people was nuts. I wonder what will happen if that happens in the US ... probably gonna sue the companies till it drops. yea I know the gas we use is not as great as it used to be (just call it suck) but gasoline engines is a bit more forgiving than CNG engines ... I think.
#45
Super Moderator
Isnt Hong Kong's taxi a good example of massive LPG vehicle use? and here are some info.
http://www.crown-motors.com/eng/toyo...l.aspx?id=137#
http://www.fuelture.com/magazine/LPG-Taxi-s/
http://www.devb.gov.hk/en/publicatio...x_id_1537.html
http://www.devb.gov.hk/filemanager/e...37/article.pdf
http://www.crown-motors.com/eng/toyo...l.aspx?id=137#
http://www.fuelture.com/magazine/LPG-Taxi-s/
http://www.devb.gov.hk/en/publicatio...x_id_1537.html
http://www.devb.gov.hk/filemanager/e...37/article.pdf
LPG (Liquid Petroleum Gas) is not the same as LNG (Liquid Natural Gas), one is a by product of gasoline manufacturing the other is naturally out of the ground.
LPG is sold at every Gas Stations here and has been for the past 40+ years, GM and Ford at times offer factory LPG cars, conversions can be done to most banger engines ($3000)..LPG sells here for half the price of gasoline.
Last edited by ASH8; 11-06-2011 at 02:09 PM.
#46
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building it might be easy, but will people use it is a whole different story. Just look at diesel, no matter how clean they are right now, its so freaking hard to get the america public to use it, even tho its almost everywhere. This really deter the oil companies to sell anything other than fossil fuel.
#47
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#48
I would personally buy a diesel vehicle before a hybrid and would ride a bike before driving a slow worthless, impossible to refuel, 17 hp hydrogen powered piece of crap. I wouldn't even test drive one! The most abundant fuel source in the universe is worthless if you don't have easy access to it. It won't be a mainstream fuel in the lifetime of anyone here, if ever.
All you've done if proven me correct. Hydrogen fuel cells are not the same as using hydrogen for a fuel. It is horrible as a fuel. It's worthless. A hydrogen fuel cell is using hydrogen more as a battery while the vehicle runs on an electric motor. That's what FCV's are. They are electric cars without batteries. That's the only way hydrogen can ever be viable. It can't be if you want to burn it in place of gasoline.
#49
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Natural Gas
We were once the largest producer of oil, tv's, automobiles and countless other things. Where has that gotten us. Now we are a country of comsumers.
We need to get off our asses as a country and start producing again. People need to get off their soap boxes that they deserve a job making a 100k a year and get their hands dirty working, designing and building again.
We should be leading the way in hybrid tech.
#50
No, there's a huge difference between the two. Burning H2 in an ICE is still stuck with the limitations of the Otto Cycle plus all the other hardware needed to get power to the wheels. Fuel cell "burning" creates electricity directly and the electric drive is vastly more efficient. Probably a factor of 10 gain in net efficiency (and easily a factor of 100 more expensive).