2009 RX-8/ 8yr or 100k Warranty extension Press Release and Q&A with Jeremy Barnes
06-07-2008, 08:03 PM
#101
Registered
Do you believe MNzda would recommend an engine oil that would adversely affect the longevity of the Renesis, its technological pride and joy, knowing full well that the world would be watching the reliability of this "last chance" rotary engine under a microscope? And if, for arguments sake, in 2004 Mazda did recommend an oil that proved to be unsuitable for the Renesis, do you believe they would then continue to recommend it in model years 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008, knowing it could lead to the demise of the RX-8, let alone the rotary-engined car?
06-07-2008, 08:37 PM
#102
Registered
I have no idea what the engine replacement rate is for other 5-yr old models.
I've never made that assumption. As I've said before, my hypothesis is that engine replacement is correlated to one or more of the following factors:
• New to the market '04 models suffering from first-year-of-production teething problems (i.e. ECU poorly calibrated for US driving conditions)
• AT cars with just one oil cooler
• Owner neglect or misuse: i.e. not following Mazda's oil recommendation, modding the car, racing, wrong grade of fuel, not checking oil level frequently, not revving the engine regularly, premixing
Again, I don't assume these are causes; it's merely a hypothesis. Thus, I also suspect that few '05 and later MT cars, not modded, not raced, properly maintained, following Mazda's oil recommendations, not premixed—and revved/redlined regularly—will require engine replacement.
I do believe the Renesis has a narrower margin of (owner) error than ordinary engines. And I believe Mazda's changes for the '09 and beyond will reduce this margin of error.
No, I don't. In fact, I'd like to believe that 5W-30 is every bit as good as 5W-20—albeit at a small cost in fuel economy (and possibly effectiveness at critical start-up). Oil technology continues to evolve; today "full protection" and "better mileage" are not mutually exclusive. I wouldn't be surprised if, in time, the "rest of the world" comes around and moves to 5W-20—not just for the RX-8, but many cars. You read it here first.
Do you believe Mazda would recommend an engine oil that would adversely affect the longevity of the Renesis, its technological pride and joy, knowing full well that the world would be watching the reliability of this "last chance" rotary engine under a microscope? And if, for arguments sake, in 2004 Mazda did recommend an oil that proved to be unsuitable for the Renesis, do you believe they would then continue to recommend it in model years 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008, knowing it could lead to the demise of the RX-8, let alone the rotary-engined car?
I've never made that assumption. As I've said before, my hypothesis is that engine replacement is correlated to one or more of the following factors:
• New to the market '04 models suffering from first-year-of-production teething problems (i.e. ECU poorly calibrated for US driving conditions)
• AT cars with just one oil cooler
• Owner neglect or misuse: i.e. not following Mazda's oil recommendation, modding the car, racing, wrong grade of fuel, not checking oil level frequently, not revving the engine regularly, premixing
Again, I don't assume these are causes; it's merely a hypothesis. Thus, I also suspect that few '05 and later MT cars, not modded, not raced, properly maintained, following Mazda's oil recommendations, not premixed—and revved/redlined regularly—will require engine replacement.
I do believe the Renesis has a narrower margin of (owner) error than ordinary engines. And I believe Mazda's changes for the '09 and beyond will reduce this margin of error.
No, I don't. In fact, I'd like to believe that 5W-30 is every bit as good as 5W-20—albeit at a small cost in fuel economy (and possibly effectiveness at critical start-up). Oil technology continues to evolve; today "full protection" and "better mileage" are not mutually exclusive. I wouldn't be surprised if, in time, the "rest of the world" comes around and moves to 5W-20—not just for the RX-8, but many cars. You read it here first.
Do you believe Mazda would recommend an engine oil that would adversely affect the longevity of the Renesis, its technological pride and joy, knowing full well that the world would be watching the reliability of this "last chance" rotary engine under a microscope? And if, for arguments sake, in 2004 Mazda did recommend an oil that proved to be unsuitable for the Renesis, do you believe they would then continue to recommend it in model years 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008, knowing it could lead to the demise of the RX-8, let alone the rotary-engined car?
06-07-2008, 09:19 PM
#103
1) Why are North American models recommending 5W20 and the rest of the world recommending 5W30 when the exact same engine is used?
a) Are there different oil seals being used for North American engines vs. the rest of the world?
b) The Renesis engine by design can use EITHER 5W20 or 5W30 with negligible failure rates, and the decision to recommend 5W20 in North American is strictly to meet CAFE requirements?
a) Are there different oil seals being used for North American engines vs. the rest of the world?
b) The Renesis engine by design can use EITHER 5W20 or 5W30 with negligible failure rates, and the decision to recommend 5W20 in North American is strictly to meet CAFE requirements?
06-07-2008, 09:54 PM
#104
Lubricious
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Yet, Jeremy, there have been multiple revisions of the car's firmware which have adjusted the oil injection in response to problems. As a consumer I take that to mean the previous iterations were precisely .... wrong. Given the number of adjustments to date I think you can understand why customers might want to hedge their bets when it comes to lubrication of seals and housings.
06-07-2008, 10:16 PM
#105
I agree, but as Nubo and a few others have mentioned there seems to be a land of limbo where owners get stuck between a dealership that decides the warranty won't be honored and MNAO saying "what the dealer says goes."
"- dealers: as you all know, every dealership is an independent business, neither owned nor operated by us. as such, they all run slightly differently. you are not obligated to return to the dealer from whom you purchased your car for service, nor are you required to service your car at a Mazda dealer. You are, however, required to maintain proof of maintenance of the car (per the maintenance schedule) if you wish to receive warranty service. I'm sure you can understand this..."
This response seems to imply (in my opinion) that Mazda knows there are dealerships that aren't top notch. I don't believe it reflects well on Mazda when customers get caught in said land of limbo, especially if I inferred correctly that Mazda knows some dealers stink. If that's the case I think MNAO should be advocating for their owners, rather than accepting the decision of the dealerships w/o any real attempt at diagnosing the problem on their own.
I would like to see the "warranty denied" issue discussed in more concrete terms, if you could please Jeremy. And perhaps some discussion about the state of a warranty system that allows "an independent business" the power to void a Mazda warranty.
I do love my 8, and have been trouble free for 40k, with the only issue being the taillight condensation that was fixed under warranty. But even with this minor issue the dealership I used jerked me around a bit by telling me I had to come back when "the tech who takes pictures was working", then following that BS up by NOT taking any pictures when I came back another day. I understand that Mazda can't be expected to police the large number of dealerships across the country, but I think it's fair to expect MNAO to side with an owner unless a dealership shows some proof of why a warranty should be voided, rather than just claiming some aftermarket part, "abuse", or other factor caused the problem w/o any real diagnostic evidence, which seems to be the case more often than not.
"- dealers: as you all know, every dealership is an independent business, neither owned nor operated by us. as such, they all run slightly differently. you are not obligated to return to the dealer from whom you purchased your car for service, nor are you required to service your car at a Mazda dealer. You are, however, required to maintain proof of maintenance of the car (per the maintenance schedule) if you wish to receive warranty service. I'm sure you can understand this..."
This response seems to imply (in my opinion) that Mazda knows there are dealerships that aren't top notch. I don't believe it reflects well on Mazda when customers get caught in said land of limbo, especially if I inferred correctly that Mazda knows some dealers stink. If that's the case I think MNAO should be advocating for their owners, rather than accepting the decision of the dealerships w/o any real attempt at diagnosing the problem on their own.
I would like to see the "warranty denied" issue discussed in more concrete terms, if you could please Jeremy. And perhaps some discussion about the state of a warranty system that allows "an independent business" the power to void a Mazda warranty.
I do love my 8, and have been trouble free for 40k, with the only issue being the taillight condensation that was fixed under warranty. But even with this minor issue the dealership I used jerked me around a bit by telling me I had to come back when "the tech who takes pictures was working", then following that BS up by NOT taking any pictures when I came back another day. I understand that Mazda can't be expected to police the large number of dealerships across the country, but I think it's fair to expect MNAO to side with an owner unless a dealership shows some proof of why a warranty should be voided, rather than just claiming some aftermarket part, "abuse", or other factor caused the problem w/o any real diagnostic evidence, which seems to be the case more often than not.
I hope Mr. Barnes can clarify this issue. I know, from past experience, that other automakers have company designated 'troubleshooters' or 'techs' that literally roam from region to region, and dealership to dealership, and make the call on whether a mechanical problem is one that is covered by the manufacturer's warranty, whenever the problem is a complex one.
I do not see why or how Mazda could empower 'independently owned' and 'independently operated' Mazda dealerships to have the end all/be all decision making authority on whether a mechanical problem is covered by Mazda's warranty.
Hopefully, some clarification on this issue can be provided by Mr. Barnes.
06-08-2008, 12:00 AM
#108
Pre-mixing finally put to rest.
Jeremy, you do realize that, had you endorsed pre-mixing, many here would be quoting your words as confirmation of the usefulness of their quaint pre-fueling ritual. Of course, now that you've said pre-mixing isn't necessary, those same people will point to your words as proof that you're not allowed to tell the truth about pre-mixing. And so goes logic in the bizarro world of RX8Club.com.
Thankfully, it's a moot point; only a tiny handful of RX-8 owners will ever premix or, for that matter, even hear the word "premix" uttered in their lifetime.
(Sorry guys, couldn't resist. Is pre-mixing helpful? Maybe it is. Then again, maybe it isn't.
)
Last edited by New Yorker; 06-08-2008 at 12:13 AM.
06-08-2008, 08:52 AM
#110
whines all the way home
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Thank you, Jeremy, for finally setting the record straight on pre-mixing. It was long a subject of great debate, generating one of the longest threads here; a thread that continues to this very day. (Oops… did I say "debate"? It was never a debate. Unless you consider "Idemitsu vs. Marvel Mystery Oil" or "4-oz vs. 6-oz." a debate. If there were 1,000 posts, maybe 9 of them questioned the need to pre-mix.)
Jeremy, you do realize that, had you endorsed pre-mixing, many here would be quoting your words as confirmation of the usefulness of their quaint pre-fueling ritual. Of course, now that you've said pre-mixing isn't necessary, those same people will point to your words as proof that you're not allowed to tell the truth about pre-mixing. And so goes logic in the bizarro world of RX8Club.com.
Thankfully, it's a moot point; only a tiny handful of RX-8 owners will ever premix or, for that matter, even hear the word "premix" uttered in their lifetime.
(Sorry guys, couldn't resist. Is pre-mixing helpful? Maybe it is. Then again, maybe it isn't.)
Jeremy, you do realize that, had you endorsed pre-mixing, many here would be quoting your words as confirmation of the usefulness of their quaint pre-fueling ritual. Of course, now that you've said pre-mixing isn't necessary, those same people will point to your words as proof that you're not allowed to tell the truth about pre-mixing. And so goes logic in the bizarro world of RX8Club.com.
Thankfully, it's a moot point; only a tiny handful of RX-8 owners will ever premix or, for that matter, even hear the word "premix" uttered in their lifetime.
(Sorry guys, couldn't resist. Is pre-mixing helpful? Maybe it is. Then again, maybe it isn't.
)Last edited by Rotr8; 06-08-2008 at 08:55 AM.
06-08-2008, 09:27 AM
#112
I guess, until someone actually sits down and talks—off the record—with the Mazda designers/engineers who work on the rotary, we won't have definitive answers about 5W-20 vs 30, synthetic oil, and pre-mix.
I'd also like to know actually what percentage of Renesis engines have been replaced.
I'd also like to know actually what percentage of Renesis engines have been replaced.
06-08-2008, 09:48 AM
#113
Registered
Don't think you'll hear that from Mazda. Would you also be interested in how many rotaries that have been rebuilt by non-Mazda professionals? Their perspective is very enlightening.
06-08-2008, 02:47 PM
#114
It's not like they have forbidden high grade oils, you as the owner still have to use good judgement and think for yourself. Yes, you should be able to trust their judgement being that they designed the engine and I think that is what is sketchy in this situation. But there is no danger in doing what you think is reasonable and informed and they will not punish you for being reasonable and being of due diligence in maintaining your engine.
So if you don't like 5w-20, great, use a higher grade, I do. Mazda has determined for it's own reasons that 5w-20 is better, but I can determine on my own that it needs something more.
So if you don't like 5w-20, great, use a higher grade, I do. Mazda has determined for it's own reasons that 5w-20 is better, but I can determine on my own that it needs something more.
Last edited by fahrfegneugen; 06-08-2008 at 02:50 PM.
06-09-2008, 09:08 AM
#115
It would have been awesome if JeremyB just posted a reply that said...
I would probably still be laughing. I look forward to hearing/reading more replys by him in the future. I do not look forward to dealing with MAZDA about soon to be transmission prolems.
"Search you newbieS!!!"
06-09-2008, 11:26 AM
#116
The Prototype
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I appreciate the extra insurance on the rotary Mazda, but how about the tranny?!Hopefully this is in the works as well.
Last edited by DailyDriver2k5; 06-09-2008 at 11:54 AM.
06-09-2008, 05:57 PM
#118
Registered
Thank you, Jeremy, for finally setting the record straight on pre-mixing. It was long a subject of great debate, generating one of the longest threads here; a thread that continues to this very day. (Oops… did I say "debate"? It was never a debate. Unless you consider "Idemitsu vs. Marvel Mystery Oil" or "4-oz vs. 6-oz." a debate. If there were 1,000 posts, maybe 9 of them questioned the need to pre-mix.)
Jeremy, you do realize that, had you endorsed pre-mixing, many here would be quoting your words as confirmation of the usefulness of their quaint pre-fueling ritual. Of course, now that you've said pre-mixing isn't necessary, those same people will point to your words as proof that you're not allowed to tell the truth about pre-mixing. And so goes logic in the bizarro world of RX8Club.com.
Thankfully, it's a moot point; only a tiny handful of RX-8 owners will ever premix or, for that matter, even hear the word "premix" uttered in their lifetime.
(Sorry guys, couldn't resist. Is pre-mixing helpful? Maybe it is. Then again, maybe it isn't.)
Jeremy, you do realize that, had you endorsed pre-mixing, many here would be quoting your words as confirmation of the usefulness of their quaint pre-fueling ritual. Of course, now that you've said pre-mixing isn't necessary, those same people will point to your words as proof that you're not allowed to tell the truth about pre-mixing. And so goes logic in the bizarro world of RX8Club.com.
Thankfully, it's a moot point; only a tiny handful of RX-8 owners will ever premix or, for that matter, even hear the word "premix" uttered in their lifetime.
(Sorry guys, couldn't resist. Is pre-mixing helpful? Maybe it is. Then again, maybe it isn't.
)
06-09-2008, 11:01 PM
#120
1) Why are North American models recommending 5W20 and the rest of the world recommending 5W30 when the exact same engine is used?
a) Are there different oil seals being used for North American engines vs. the rest of the world?
b) The Renesis engine by design can use EITHER 5W20 or 5W30 with negligible failure rates, and the decision to recommend 5W20 in North American is strictly to meet CAFE requirements?
a) Are there different oil seals being used for North American engines vs. the rest of the world?
b) The Renesis engine by design can use EITHER 5W20 or 5W30 with negligible failure rates, and the decision to recommend 5W20 in North American is strictly to meet CAFE requirements?
This is the one question, of all, that I'd most like a direct answer to, if Mr. Barnes would be so inclined to indulge us.
The answers on pre-mixing (not necessary) and using synthetic oil (not approved) were directly and succinctly answered.
I'd love to know why in North America, 5W-20 is specified, while 5W-30 is specified almost everyplace else.
Thanks in advance.
06-09-2008, 11:30 PM
#121
Lubricious
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Well, for me the answer perpetuates the schizophrenic approach that Mazda takes towards the synthetic oil issue. Jeremy himself says follow the manual, then says "dino only". My manual says nothing about synthetic oil. What I asked for was a definitive answer on whether synthetic would void the warranty. A yes or no answer would have qualified as succinct. The answer given, in addition to not answering the question, was self-contradictory. That is neither direct nor succinct. Not that I blame Jeremy at all. The problem lies with Mazda and I hardly expect him to buck the corporate line or offer anything of substance that hasn't already been vetted by them for public consumption in other venues. It's a noble gesture, but don't expect anything of substance.
06-10-2008, 12:13 AM
#123
One Shot One Kill
i don't think the us manual has anything other than 5w-20 across all temperature recommended.
and i wonder if he even is gonna come back.. he has only posted once
and i wonder if he even is gonna come back.. he has only posted once
Last edited by xsnipersgox; 06-10-2008 at 12:16 AM.
06-10-2008, 12:29 AM
#124
Huge hole is huge
