16X Technical observations
11-01-2007, 02:27 PM
#101
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maybe the thirt spark plug its only going to be use in racing, and mazda wanted to make things sympler than what they had to do to make the r26b?
MFR rotor housing ready for 3erd spark plug?
MFR rotor housing ready for 3erd spark plug?
11-01-2007, 02:31 PM
#102
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That was my guess too, but then when I thought of how much work they need to open up peripheral ports......................
When if this engine goes racing, it will be in MSP configuration only for many years, until Mazda Japan gets serious.
________
Mady
When if this engine goes racing, it will be in MSP configuration only for many years, until Mazda Japan gets serious.
________
Mady
Last edited by Renesis_8; 09-11-2011 at 01:48 PM.
11-01-2007, 02:55 PM
#103
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yes I agreed, it looks like a ton of work, and this engine its not like the renesis that the housings had the peripheral exhaust and intake mark, they only needed to be open
maybe the 3erd spark plug will also find its way to production vehicles
maybe the 3erd spark plug will also find its way to production vehicles
11-01-2007, 02:59 PM
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11-01-2007, 03:43 PM
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The coating is indeed different! from the tokyo motor show thread. I assume its better at repelling heat.
Now this is something they could easily apply to the current engines, if it is indeed real(not a concept) and better.
________
California dispensary
Now this is something they could easily apply to the current engines, if it is indeed real(not a concept) and better.
________
California dispensary
Last edited by Renesis_8; 09-11-2011 at 01:49 PM.
11-01-2007, 04:26 PM
#107
I like the idea that we get both DI and port injection. Since we only need the fuel economy at low rpm, who cares about it at high rpm! thats when the port injectors kick in.
Perhaps putting the DI injector above the spark plugs is harder than we thought, with a moving combustion chamber, they definitely need a lot more time to play with this idea. Tuning is gonna be a nightmare if we do end up with a DI injector above the plugs.
Perhaps putting the DI injector above the spark plugs is harder than we thought, with a moving combustion chamber, they definitely need a lot more time to play with this idea. Tuning is gonna be a nightmare if we do end up with a DI injector above the plugs.
11-03-2007, 07:49 PM
#108
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Looks Great for Airplanes
Okay, this engine looks like a winner for airplanes. The aviation community has been waiting for aluminum side housings for a while now, I am happy with the prospect of a longer stroke, increased displacement and lower weight, all perfect for aviation use.
Nucleus
Nucleus
11-04-2007, 01:41 PM
#110
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Does the intake need to originate on the opposite side of the motor from the ports (ie driver's side on US models) and cross over the top? Couldn't there be an intake plenum on the port side of the motor, allowing even shorter overall height of the motor in full dress?
11-04-2007, 01:52 PM
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They likely want the intake a certain length for tuning purposes, making the up-and-over intake design the best way to package the whole thing as long as they have space on top of the engine to put it all. You could make it all go to the port side of the engine, but you'd still need space to put all of the tubing.
11-05-2007, 03:30 PM
#112
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Here there is another observation:
Current 13b rotor has 50 internal teeth whereas new 16x has 55.
This means better intergearing and closer to perfect apex seals trajectories and therefore smaller rotor- apex to trochoid clearances. This last means possible shorter apex seals and again lower flexions and better resistance.
Well done Mazda.
Cheers
jird20
Current 13b rotor has 50 internal teeth whereas new 16x has 55.
This means better intergearing and closer to perfect apex seals trajectories and therefore smaller rotor- apex to trochoid clearances. This last means possible shorter apex seals and again lower flexions and better resistance.
Well done Mazda.
Cheers
jird20
Last edited by jird20; 11-07-2007 at 08:42 AM.
11-05-2007, 05:04 PM
#113
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Here there is another observation:
Current 13b rotor has 50 internal teeth whereas new 16x has 55.
This means better intergearing and closer to perfect apex seals trayectories and therefore smaller rotor- apex to trochoid clearances. This last means possible shorter apex seals and again lower flexions and better resistance.
Well done Mazda.
Cheers
jird20
Current 13b rotor has 50 internal teeth whereas new 16x has 55.
This means better intergearing and closer to perfect apex seals trayectories and therefore smaller rotor- apex to trochoid clearances. This last means possible shorter apex seals and again lower flexions and better resistance.
Well done Mazda.
Cheers
jird20
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trajectory
11-06-2007, 11:11 AM
#114
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well the article has appeared shorter and with less depth than i had hoped for but there is a bit or 2 of new news in it
Mazda seeks to change the shape of the rotary engine
Mark Rechtin
Automotive News
November 5, 2007 - 12:01 am ET
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TOKYO — For the first time in the 50 years since Felix Wankel designed the rotary engine, the fundamental shape of the engine will be changed.
In developing its 16X rotary engine, Mazda Motor Corp. will enlarge both the elliptical shape of the combustion chamber and the rotor's eccentric center stroke. Mazda also will incorporate direct-injection fuel delivery in a rotary engine for the first time, said Seita Kanai, Mazda's senior managing executive officer for r&d.
Mazda's current rotary is 1.3 liters in displacement. The 16X concept engine is 1.6 liters. Mazda expects the new engine to be installed in its cars early next decade.
Kanai predicts the new engine could be the powerplant of hydrogen-fueled cars, because it will ignite hydrogen more efficiently than a piston engine.
The combustion chamber ellipse will be elongated so that the engine has a longer stroke. But from a side view, the depth of each rotary chamber has been narrowed.
Mazda thinks the changes can increase both the horsepower and torque while improving the fuel economy of the notoriously thirsty engine.
But changing the shape of the engine significantly affects the combustion of the air-fuel mixture. That is why Mazda is forecasting several years of development before the engine will be ready for production, Kanai said.
Mazda engineers also are wrestling with where to locate the direct-injection port.
Said Kanai: "We need to find the optimal way to inject the air-fuel mixture, in what position, when it fires and at what angle."
Mark Rechtin
Automotive News
November 5, 2007 - 12:01 am ET
advertisement
TOKYO — For the first time in the 50 years since Felix Wankel designed the rotary engine, the fundamental shape of the engine will be changed.
In developing its 16X rotary engine, Mazda Motor Corp. will enlarge both the elliptical shape of the combustion chamber and the rotor's eccentric center stroke. Mazda also will incorporate direct-injection fuel delivery in a rotary engine for the first time, said Seita Kanai, Mazda's senior managing executive officer for r&d.
Mazda's current rotary is 1.3 liters in displacement. The 16X concept engine is 1.6 liters. Mazda expects the new engine to be installed in its cars early next decade.
Kanai predicts the new engine could be the powerplant of hydrogen-fueled cars, because it will ignite hydrogen more efficiently than a piston engine.
The combustion chamber ellipse will be elongated so that the engine has a longer stroke. But from a side view, the depth of each rotary chamber has been narrowed.
Mazda thinks the changes can increase both the horsepower and torque while improving the fuel economy of the notoriously thirsty engine.
But changing the shape of the engine significantly affects the combustion of the air-fuel mixture. That is why Mazda is forecasting several years of development before the engine will be ready for production, Kanai said.
Mazda engineers also are wrestling with where to locate the direct-injection port.
Said Kanai: "We need to find the optimal way to inject the air-fuel mixture, in what position, when it fires and at what angle."
idea i just had- maybe that 3rd "spark plug " port is actually a DI option?
11-06-2007, 11:16 AM
#115
Go Texas Longhorns!
interesting. Didn't we here they had running versions of the engine in RX8 mules at 7stock? This makes it sound like they still have some DI work to do. Wonder if they will also consider DI closer the spark plugs.
11-06-2007, 11:25 AM
#116
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very interesting. the narrower chamber totally makes sense, because the deeper the mix is when it is ignited, the less effect it has on the rotors outside rotation, which in turn should improve torque by a significant amout.
11-06-2007, 11:42 AM
#117
Momentum Keeps Me Going
"..early next decade"? interesting yes.... but damn depressing at the same time ... he's not talking model year release, but calendar decade 
it sounds like?
So nix the engine in a '09 revised RX-8, nix it even in a new RX-?/Kabura vehicle possibility for 2010 as that will likely be intro'd in mid calendar '09. This news is getting more worrisome with each news-release on the 16x. Looks like they don't have much of anything figured out, just going on a hope and a prayer that things will get better for the rotary over the next few yrs development if Mazda ultimately funds it...
....all i can say is - Yikes!!! Strangely like 1974 deja vu all over again.... rising fuel prices and the possible senario of the inefficient rotary going down like a aluminum boat anchor.
The 135m concept may be forced into service as the next love on my car horizon ... too bad.
it sounds like? So nix the engine in a '09 revised RX-8, nix it even in a new RX-?/Kabura vehicle possibility for 2010 as that will likely be intro'd in mid calendar '09. This news is getting more worrisome with each news-release on the 16x. Looks like they don't have much of anything figured out, just going on a hope and a prayer that things will get better for the rotary over the next few yrs development if Mazda ultimately funds it...
....all i can say is - Yikes!!! Strangely like 1974 deja vu all over again.... rising fuel prices and the possible senario of the inefficient rotary going down like a aluminum boat anchor.
The 135m concept may be forced into service as the next love on my car horizon ... too bad.
11-06-2007, 11:51 AM
#119
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Mazda might not but the public may... have you seen the sales/production chart?
https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...6&d=1194289498
They have to pull the proverbial rabbit out of the hat to light up sales or else...much as I hate to say that as I love the rotary as much as any of us!
https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...6&d=1194289498
They have to pull the proverbial rabbit out of the hat to light up sales or else...much as I hate to say that as I love the rotary as much as any of us!
11-06-2007, 11:54 AM
#120
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Don't let this news discourage you. It's actually good news. They have made progress over the current engine and are still working on it. That's not a bad thing. They just showed it to us early rather than keeping us waiting for a few more years. We already know that we won't see this engine for 4-5 years at a minimum anyways so don't let any news of development seem like a deal breaker.
11-06-2007, 12:11 PM
#122
As I may have said previously, direct injection on a rotary is a bit different than piston engine application and there are more things to consider in injector location than meet even the discerning eye.
I'm not worried either about what stage Mazda may or may not be at. I think we aren't being told eveything, and that's just fine in my book.
Paul.
I'm not worried either about what stage Mazda may or may not be at. I think we aren't being told eveything, and that's just fine in my book.
Paul.
11-06-2007, 12:11 PM
#123
Momentum Keeps Me Going
. . 
. . 
if they let me outa my rocker and off the porch 
11-06-2007, 12:23 PM
#124
You forget the next wave of fuel will most likely be hydrogen.
After GM and Ford get their cars an the road that will support an infrastructure of Hydrogen stations, then you'll see the Rotay engine come to life.
I wouldn't doubt you'd see competitor manufacturer's using the rotary engine, especially Ford. Currently Mitsubshi makes engines and tranny's for other car companies. The world is global. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
After GM and Ford get their cars an the road that will support an infrastructure of Hydrogen stations, then you'll see the Rotay engine come to life.
I wouldn't doubt you'd see competitor manufacturer's using the rotary engine, especially Ford. Currently Mitsubshi makes engines and tranny's for other car companies. The world is global. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
11-06-2007, 12:25 PM
#125
Registered
I don't think we'll see competitors use a rotary. It would have to prove superior to piston engines for the intended use in several ways before it would ever get to that and even then I don't see it happening.