What are the REAL post-RX8 contenders?
10-17-2007, 10:35 AM
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What are the REAL post-RX8 contenders?
Let's not turn this into a debate on the wisdom of car ownership length, etc... I generally don't keep cars very long, call it an unfortunate by-product of someone who really likes cars but has a predictable, boring commute. I get bored after some period of time, depends on the car, but it happens. Sure, there's a financial impact to it, but I make a good bit of money but buy very reasonably-priced cars, so I consider it a cost of my "car entertainment."
The RX8 is, by far, the most "exotic" car I've owned (really, the only other "performance" car I owned was a WRX; the rest were just ordinary, e.g., an older TL, a Mazda6). It's got so many great features and characteristics: I love the sound of two rotors spinning at 7K and effortlessly carving up every meager road curve. I also love the fact that I have the only RX8 in my work parking lot, while there are two new 328xi's, three new Lexus IS's...., and it's only a couple hundred people. I love when people get in and just gawk at the interior (red/black, navi), and I never tire of people's neck snapping around when I pop open the rear doors and let my kids out. I can't think of any car that really competes on all those fronts, let alone in this price range. BUT....
I've had my 8 for about a year and I've just kinda got that itch. In another year or so, I'll likely be chomping for something else, but I can't think of what I'd want to give up:
* Good power (yes, the 8 could have more, but I still consider it quick, and I want to continue to have some good power)
* Great handling (it's easier to carve a turn than go 140, so I need a rail-rider!)
* Seat four people - two kids, this is an absolute must
* Unique - if I was one of the people who bought that new IS, only to show up at work and see two others, I'd be beside myself
* Reasonably priced - as I said, I could afford to spend more on a car if I knew I'd keep it, but b/c I "flip" frequently, I have to keep my entrance price down; got my 8 used for only $19K
Best option I've been able to come up with so far is an E46 M3. I really love the E39 M5, but I think it's just too big. The E46 M3's should be nearing the $20-25K price range in another year or so, and I've always loved them. However, they're not exactly unique, and surely won't be once they can be had for that price. Anything else I can think of has even more "lackings" compared to the 8. Any other ideas?
The RX8 is, by far, the most "exotic" car I've owned (really, the only other "performance" car I owned was a WRX; the rest were just ordinary, e.g., an older TL, a Mazda6). It's got so many great features and characteristics: I love the sound of two rotors spinning at 7K and effortlessly carving up every meager road curve. I also love the fact that I have the only RX8 in my work parking lot, while there are two new 328xi's, three new Lexus IS's...., and it's only a couple hundred people. I love when people get in and just gawk at the interior (red/black, navi), and I never tire of people's neck snapping around when I pop open the rear doors and let my kids out. I can't think of any car that really competes on all those fronts, let alone in this price range. BUT....
I've had my 8 for about a year and I've just kinda got that itch. In another year or so, I'll likely be chomping for something else, but I can't think of what I'd want to give up:
* Good power (yes, the 8 could have more, but I still consider it quick, and I want to continue to have some good power)
* Great handling (it's easier to carve a turn than go 140, so I need a rail-rider!)
* Seat four people - two kids, this is an absolute must
* Unique - if I was one of the people who bought that new IS, only to show up at work and see two others, I'd be beside myself
* Reasonably priced - as I said, I could afford to spend more on a car if I knew I'd keep it, but b/c I "flip" frequently, I have to keep my entrance price down; got my 8 used for only $19K
Best option I've been able to come up with so far is an E46 M3. I really love the E39 M5, but I think it's just too big. The E46 M3's should be nearing the $20-25K price range in another year or so, and I've always loved them. However, they're not exactly unique, and surely won't be once they can be had for that price. Anything else I can think of has even more "lackings" compared to the 8. Any other ideas?
10-17-2007, 12:55 PM
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For that price point you're looking at a bunch of used car options. The G35, STI, and Evo are the only ones that would really fit your criteria. Other good options might include the Legacy GT, Mazdaspeed 6, Mazdaspeed 3, and Audi A4. Not the handlers the previous cars are but still pretty good.
I don't know the exact numbers but I'd venture a guess that the E46 M3 sold fewer units than the RX-8 has. Just because they're going to be cheaper doesn't mean those numbers will increase, in fact, that's impossible since they won't be making any more...
I don't know the exact numbers but I'd venture a guess that the E46 M3 sold fewer units than the RX-8 has. Just because they're going to be cheaper doesn't mean those numbers will increase, in fact, that's impossible since they won't be making any more...
10-17-2007, 01:10 PM
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I can't believe that the E46 sold less than the RX8, unless the regional differences are that stark. I see MAYBE 2-3 RX8's a month around me, probably less, but will see at least 5-10 E46 M3's.
I really dig the MS3. G35 is a bit too "stately" for me, but the STi is too racer boy. I should go try to get a ride in an MS6. S4 would be nice, but damn they're pricey.
Elise <> 4 people, no?
I really dig the MS3. G35 is a bit too "stately" for me, but the STi is too racer boy. I should go try to get a ride in an MS6. S4 would be nice, but damn they're pricey.
Elise <> 4 people, no?
10-17-2007, 02:47 PM
#11
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easy a 964 911. the usual suspects of g35, sti or evos are to me pedestrian. Too many g35s. STi..... well people still confuses them with a standard WRX or an impreza. EVO i can't say as we have none here yet. But i think it is gonna suffer the same perception of an STi. all boxy cars imho. so your best bet is a mid-90s 911. Still a looker where ever you go. Can't beat the sound of a flat-6.
10-17-2007, 03:08 PM
#12
The MS6 is a lead sled, way to heavy for what it is plus it's AWD is a joke. The car is really a FWD. I'd take the Legacy GT over it any day. The LGT will out perform a MS6 in just about every way. The only area the MS6 had was pricing. I also heard the MS6 had quality issues but do not have hard numbers on this so take it as hear-say.
10-17-2007, 04:19 PM
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A 911 does not really have a back seat guys. It is a leather package shelf.
How about an '01 S4 biturbo... they made them for 2 years... the '01 model that is.
How about an '01 S4 biturbo... they made them for 2 years... the '01 model that is.
10-17-2007, 04:45 PM
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Work on removing the 'itch' and keep the car. Or shift the focus of the 'itch', change other things in your life. It sounds like you will be upset if you sell it.
10-18-2007, 12:36 AM
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I have to agree. Sounds like the best option. I, like you have the same problem with cars. Thus the title under my name, 18 month shelf life. The only problem with the M3, at least in my area, is that they are common. I see more of those than the 8. But I still like it. I am looking forward to the 09 CTS-V.
10-18-2007, 03:09 AM
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I have to agree. Sounds like the best option. I, like you have the same problem with cars. Thus the title under my name, 18 month shelf life. The only problem with the M3, at least in my area, is that they are common. I see more of those than the 8. But I still like it. I am looking forward to the 09 CTS-V.
He didn't even buy his RX-8 new and you think he'll consider a lease on a 50k+ car?
Last edited by Ike; 10-18-2007 at 03:12 AM.
10-18-2007, 04:23 AM
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Get the M3 as planned, you will love that car and your kids will fit just fine...that car handles like a dream, only down side will be the price of rear tires as you'll burn through them every 7k miles or so guaranteed and it's a staggered setup so no rotating.
10-18-2007, 09:19 AM
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Yes, I have strongly considered leasing. However, the real cost to owning the car is the actual depreciation it experiences, regardless of what monthly payment you pay. A lease has the advantage that you, essentially, pay right along with depreciation (whereas with a conventional loan, you pay much more than that each month), but the fact is, still, that new cars depreciate quickly. A really well-struck new car lease, with a good negotiated price, money factor and residual, can be a win/win.
But, a wise used car deal can be just as good. My 8 was sort of a "test" of my theory. I bought it from a private seller one year ago (2004) for $19K (GT, loaded, only 17K miles). I plan to sell it privately when the time comes, and I don't expect the price drop to be dramatic (my mindset was, basically, it will be a while before this is a $12K car). So, while I may have a higher monthly payment than if I had just leased a $19K new car, I should get that back in positive equity on the loan when I sell. So, the bottom line is, you should buy a car where the expected depreciation over your ownership period is the lowest, balanced with expected maintenance costs (i.e., you could buy a car for $800 that's fully depreciated, but repairs would be a nightmare, potentially).
A really good lease deal, with a low purchase price and high residual, is effectively a negotiation of the depreciation, and your monthly outflow is perfectly matched to that depreciation. Alternatively, buying a used car that's on a flat(ter) portion of its depreciation curve is also good. If you finance it conventionally, you'll usually pay faster than the depreciation, but you build equity.
Ideally, leasing a CPO car SHOULD be the best solution: flatter depreciation than new and you get to pay in step with the depreciation. Unfortunately, my research has shown the BMW's charge absurd prices for their CPO cars. I've seen listings for 2-3 year old CPO M3's at $50K! Funny, because BMW's lease factors would tell you they project at least 30% depreciation in the first two years, but a car that sold for $60K is only selling for 12% less two years later? Bah.
OK, back on topic: trying to wiggle a great lease deal on a new MS3 is very tempting. Shoot, you can only load them up to $27K, and if you can push a good deal and skip navi, maybe a $350/month deal. Pretty good bang for buck. As stated, M3 is the best performer of the bunch, but adding $1K in tires every year is NFG. *sigh* I think the LGT is a great car, but a little bland for me. Would love a P-car but too much uncertainty with upkeep (heck, basic maintenance alone can be unwieldy).
To paraphrase a converation with my friend (who just bought a new G35x): isn't it crazy how we get used to stuff? We've both got great cars, and talk about all these other great cars. He said, 'yeah, I finally got a car with 300 horses, now I want 400!"
But, a wise used car deal can be just as good. My 8 was sort of a "test" of my theory. I bought it from a private seller one year ago (2004) for $19K (GT, loaded, only 17K miles). I plan to sell it privately when the time comes, and I don't expect the price drop to be dramatic (my mindset was, basically, it will be a while before this is a $12K car). So, while I may have a higher monthly payment than if I had just leased a $19K new car, I should get that back in positive equity on the loan when I sell. So, the bottom line is, you should buy a car where the expected depreciation over your ownership period is the lowest, balanced with expected maintenance costs (i.e., you could buy a car for $800 that's fully depreciated, but repairs would be a nightmare, potentially).
A really good lease deal, with a low purchase price and high residual, is effectively a negotiation of the depreciation, and your monthly outflow is perfectly matched to that depreciation. Alternatively, buying a used car that's on a flat(ter) portion of its depreciation curve is also good. If you finance it conventionally, you'll usually pay faster than the depreciation, but you build equity.
Ideally, leasing a CPO car SHOULD be the best solution: flatter depreciation than new and you get to pay in step with the depreciation. Unfortunately, my research has shown the BMW's charge absurd prices for their CPO cars. I've seen listings for 2-3 year old CPO M3's at $50K! Funny, because BMW's lease factors would tell you they project at least 30% depreciation in the first two years, but a car that sold for $60K is only selling for 12% less two years later? Bah.
OK, back on topic: trying to wiggle a great lease deal on a new MS3 is very tempting. Shoot, you can only load them up to $27K, and if you can push a good deal and skip navi, maybe a $350/month deal. Pretty good bang for buck. As stated, M3 is the best performer of the bunch, but adding $1K in tires every year is NFG. *sigh* I think the LGT is a great car, but a little bland for me. Would love a P-car but too much uncertainty with upkeep (heck, basic maintenance alone can be unwieldy).
To paraphrase a converation with my friend (who just bought a new G35x): isn't it crazy how we get used to stuff? We've both got great cars, and talk about all these other great cars. He said, 'yeah, I finally got a car with 300 horses, now I want 400!"
10-18-2007, 09:39 AM
#25
I couldn't agree more about the LGT. When I bought the RX-8 the LGT was my second choice. Beautiful interior, great AWD, very fast, good handling, Subaru reliability but it looks like every other car on the road. There is no excitement at all in this car's design, it is dull from every angle. Subaru really needs to fire their design team, have you seen the new WRX 
OK, back on topic: trying to wiggle a great lease deal on a new MS3 is very tempting. Shoot, you can only load them up to $27K, and if you can push a good deal and skip navi, maybe a $350/month deal. Pretty good bang for buck. As stated, M3 is the best performer of the bunch, but adding $1K in tires every year is NFG. *sigh* I think the LGT is a great car, but a little bland for me. Would love a P-car but too much uncertainty with upkeep (heck, basic maintenance alone can be unwieldy).