Raevik

I am currently driving an M-Edition MX6, 1996. It's a pretty nice car, but I've been pouring money into it since last summer to the tune of $6,000 in repairs.

Sooo, I go out and test drive some cars. I drove the 350Z, the RX-8, the S2000, and a 2001 Chevy C5 Corvette. The vette, of course, was the fastest of them all, but I equated it to driving a boat with warp drive.

The S2000 was simply okay. I honestly found it somewhat slugging in the mid RPMS and overpriced. THe cockpit was stupidly cramped.

The 350Z was very very nice, but the ride was somewhat rough and the car felt overly heavy to me.

The RX-8, however, I fell in love with. Right there. I wanted to buy it that day, but didn't have my finances in order to do so.

Now, I arrive at my point (to your certain relief). I don't know if I WANT to get it. Why, you ask? Well I'll tell you a couple reasons:

1) I will drive this as my primary vehicle. That means commuting with traffic lights and slow driving and traffic backups. I don't want to have this be some sort of justification for the 10-14 mpg ratings I've been seeing on these boards. That's insane. Hummers get milage like that.

2) I absolutely will NOT spend $30k on a car that will simply DIE if you don't take 10 minutes to warm it up before shut down. That's stupid. No other word or justification is required. I will not be intimidated or scared to drive my car short distances or afraid of embarassment with passengers because my car suddenly won't start and requires towing to the dealer. A brand new car that requires towing out of your lot to a dealer if you accidentally forget to warm it before shut down. So what if it only happens rarely? ONCE is way to often. The inconvenience, frustration, and total lack of reliability associated with such an event would likely force me to sell the car outright!

Above all, I really want to be consoled. I want a knowledgable person to tell me it is a statistical improbability that it will happen, on the order of <1% chance. I need someone to tell me that even if it DID flood, I'd have a <1% chance that it needs to go to the dealer. I need someone to tell me that the car, driven casually (ie not flooring it to 9k RPM from every light) can maintain the posted EPA mpg of 18/23.

Can someone tell me this?

Raevik

I called Mazda with a few issues to discuss:

1) The flooding
2) The ECM adjustment prior to launch resulting in fewer posted HP and lowered mpg.
3) Complaints about extremely low mpg.


"Frank" was extremely professional and courteous. He was patient and listened to my concerns and answered them the best he could. I didn't like everything I heard, but here were the responses:

1) Flooding is caused by people not driving the car correctly. People seem to not want to follow instructions provided to them on how to properly drive and car for their vehicle. The RX-8 is a unique machine that requires additional care due to it's exotic nature. There is a very reasonable and simple set of steps to avoid the problem. (He then proceeded to read me the list). The flooding is covered by warranty should it occur. In addition, he did acknowledge that due to complaints, Mazda tech was working on a fix right now (albeit with no ETA), and would push that fix to dealers as a Tech Service Bulletin, not a recall, in the near future. Repairs for this problem at your local dealer should be free, and if they are not, to call Mazda service directly.

2) The ECM adjustment. This was the most interesting one. Apparently, "Frank" had no knowledge of any such change to meet EPA standards. The HP discrepancy was the result of a simply typo from Japanese Engineering during the test/production phase overseas. He took my comments on the issue and referred to a local Mazda tech who replied that it was total BS and had no merit whatsoever.

3) "Frank" has had very few if any complaints about mpg, and they only came from people who for some reason believed that since the car was small, it should achieve 30+ mpg without actually reading the EPA average mpg ratings.

He also commented to make sure I knew that there was no spare tire in the car, just an emergency inflation kit, but a spare tire could be crammed in the trunk if you choose.


Soooo, an interesting series of responses. FYI.

zerobanger

1) Any car can flood. It doesn't seem excessive on this board. My friends mustang flooded last month he had to have it towed. None of my rotary cars have ever flooded.

2) This I dont know, something definately changed.

3) I get 17-19 CITY, on highway I average 25 MPG on a long trip (with cruise) my best ever was a 30.2 over a 95 mile stretch of road. No complaints here.

thanks for the info. hope it helps someone.

Elara

I can't guarantee you anything, as you have to make your own decisions, but I've got 9k miles on my 8, have never flooded, even when the car wasn't warmed up for 5 minutes, and I get decent gas mileage. And I believe the great majority of owners will agree. However, you always hear more about the bad than the good, so take it as you will.

ArXate

All I hear are crickets.

Elara

Merging your threads, since they seem to be looking for the same type of response.

TheDosDog

My experience at ~ 5,000 miles: The car has never flooded and I have found I can get within the EPA mileage if I keep the number of short trips to a minimum. If you say "I don't know if I WANT to get it" after driving it then it may not be the right car for you.

ArXate

You must have the average mileage and single-greatest mileage record.

Are you sure you're calculating the mileage the right way, that is, using amount of gas to fill up?

Where is your location? US? Where in the US? Are you doing anything special, like turning off the DSC? Is there something with the gas in your region?

That would be funny if Mazda picked your engine apart to see what made it so special and then, after reassembly, you could never get the original mileage again.

shebam

(1) horse manure. When mine flooded I'd received no warning in any Mazda material about running the engine 'til warm, nor been warned by any sales person.

(2) obvious baloney; truth has been referred to even by Mazda folks

(3) can Frank spell "EPA"? The 8 couldn't get 24 mpg going over a cliff

Not that we don't love it, of course. Let's just not insult anyone's intelligence and we should get along OK with Mazda.

rx8daniel

not sure if merging keeps this one, or what. see my MPG in my sig.
flooding: the colder the engine, the shorter the running time before shutdown, the more likely to flood. Mine was backed down the ramp from the delivery truck-the tech who unloaded it, who quipped 'it's just a "another car"' before he got in it, killed it within 5 seconds of starting it after it rolled off the ramp. He started it back up - no problems. I was highly peeved that this moron stalled it, but happy it started - I've had 5 rotaries previously and knew it could be an issue. My opinion: I believe they sat in port for a couple weeks for more than just checking them out after shipping. Most of us had a couple 'campaigns' posted under our hoods. I read about mine at the dealer and it mentioned side (or rear) view mirror - whatever that meant. But I believe they modified the ECU for longer cat life after arrival here and simultaneously modified them at the production line. Shouldn't be an issue. If you liked it on the test drive, you should love living with it. Go for it!

zerobanger

yes Im sure I'm calculating it correct. that 30.2 MPG that I got 1 time I have never been able to repeat, but over a 220 Mile trip I got 26.2 MPG.

those #'s I quoted you are driving like an absolute granny using cruise control, driving very steady.

If I drive like a mad man I get 16-17 MPG.

I hate being lectured on my calculations, but I fill my tank up, reset my trip meter, drive the damn thing. when its time to fill up again I divide the # of miles on the trip meter by the # of gallons it took to completely fill it up.

later.

Koala Joe

RX8 is an "acquired" taste for most people. People who own RX8's are typically previous rotary owners, or people who knows something about rotary design, that doesn't equate to piston engines. Some people buy the car because they simply love it and don't care about anything else. Some people buy the car because of the rotary uniqueness. But whatever the reason, people buy the RX-8 because they can live with the so called "flaws."

As the saying goes, "You can't have your cake and eat it too." If you don't like what the RX-8 has to offer and the "baggage" that comes with it, then don't buy it. Don't buy the car because what other people says and vice versa.

Ask yourself this question: Is liking the car enough reason for you to buy it?

Peace Out

red_rx8_red_int

1. I have over 10k miles and have not flooded it. I know a couple of times I was teaching my teenager how to drive a stick and she stalled it before it was warmed up. It always restarted but this was in the warmer temperatures. I would not attempt to teach someone to drive a stick with my car now without pre-warming it just to avoid the possibility of flooding. As far as warming it up, I've never let it sit for the five minutes the booklet says, I always drive around the block, in warmer weather it took 2-3 minutes and it was warm. With colder weather, I haven't had to move the car for a "short trip" yet, but it takes much longer to warm up when I'm driving (duh, it's below freezing outside), so it might be quicker to let it idle to warm (lack of wind). Overall, the warm up issue is a slight pain in the neck, but also gives me an excuse to have a little fun whenever I move the car.

2. Some people in the know have provided this reason for the delay. Mazda itself made some comment that comports with the stated reason but doesn't directly confirm all the details of the reason going around. Only Mazda knows for sure and they are not speaking much.

3. I usually get around 15 mpg, the tank is small, my commute is large, and I fill up 2-3 times a week, which is getting old. I have always gotten epa or better in all my other cars, but I drive the 8 differently, it's my first true sports car. I got over 20 on my only road trip with this car and I did drive somewhat spirited, so I think my 8 can obtain the stated mpg. That said, some owners have cars that will never come close to the epa mpg, and from what I read, Mazda has not been very helpfull.


Bottom line, am I keeping my 8? Would I buy it again. Yes! Yes! and Yes!, I'm thinking of starting a collection of 8s.

shebam

Since two threads have been merged, I hadn't read the above when I made my "going over a cliff" comment, so was not meaning to impugn your veracity. Though I am tempted to ask: are you sure it wasn't coming down out of the Rockies with a tailwind?

(I've never broken 22 MPG in 6th-gear cruising on an interstate or 15 mpg commuting 9 miles in and out of D.C. -- and less if I drive the car the way I want to.)

red_rx8_red_int

This merging of threads is confusing, plus I don't know what to make of ArXate, some posts seem well thought out, but other posts are sooooo off base that I think (s)he should be banned. Only time will tell.

shebam

I had not seen this one either. Despite the fact that my car DID flood, DID have to be towed to a dealer and this DID occur 530 miles from home and almost strand me at the end of Thanksgiving; that it IS my daily driver and I DO rarely get more than 14 MPG commuting; AND it needs winter tires if you live in a cold climate; I would buy it all over again because it's a great car. I expect that's how most people on this Forum feel, even though they may disagree on how serious some of the issues are. There have been hints of unknown reliability of some "fix" or improvement coming (perhaps in the '05 model) re flooding but I wouldn't hold my breath re MPG. I would say chill out and buy it, but not based on hearing somebody at Mazda tell you what you want to hear.

gingersrus

1) The flooding
It is definately a strong possibility if you shut down cold. Mazda customer relations and the local dealer have verified it to me. The local dealer told me today they have had several towed in. I just made 3000 miles and have never flooded, but that is thanks only to the knowledge gained on this forum. It is definately an inconvenience (which I accept) but I have not heard of ANYONE on this forum flooding if they warmed up the car before shut down.

2) The ECM adjustment prior to launch resulting in fewer posted HP and lowered mpg.
no knowledge on that

3) Complaints about extremely low mpg.
I drive it conservatively most of the time, with an occasional burst of speed and high RPM. On the highway at about 75 MPH I have consistently gotten 20-22 MPG and in mixed city driving 15-16 MPG - all using mid-grade gasoline.

Raevik

Yeah the post merge is a bit confusing, but oh well.

One post was to post questions/concerns, the other was to report the responses from Mazda, Corp.

Thanks for all of your responses. I do feel a bit better about it, but still. I'd hate to have the car and constantly worry about being stranded somewhere after "buying new". With new, you have certain expectations concerning reliability.

Without that reliability, what's the point?

I did test drive the vehicle twice, and adored it. Amazing road grip, comfortable driving, easy revving engine, but not obnoxious. Everything just felt "right".

I almost bought last Sun, but as I said, needed to organize finances. Now, I've really got cold feet (though starting to thaw a bit).

Here's a few more pointed questions:

1) Does anyone know what percentage of cars have the problem? Is it ALL cars due to a design flaw, or a manufacturing defect that only effects some?

2) How often, when it DOES flood, does it need to be towed in and serviced? Are the vast majority of flood recovered, or is the car automatically hosed when it happens?

3) What's the "minimum" distance or temp required to prevent the problem? Full warm temperature required, or just a registered value above full-cold (ie the needle moved)?

4) Has anyone kept metrics of what kind of % of customers have had this problem since they purchased the vehicle? Isn't it almost inevitable that SOMEONE like the wife or a valet will forget? Isn't that one time a tremendous pain in the *** that will involve tow trucks, dealers, maintenance personnel, warranty usage, loaners, etc etc. How can people be cool with this?

Thanks for humoring my paranoid questions. I just don't want to leave one maintenance money-hole of a car just to land myself in a cooler looking one.

Haze

Your questions aren't paranoid. They're the questions of someone wanting to know where his money is going.

I have 6,500 miles, and I have had no problems, and no flooding. The manual says that five minutes is what is needed to warm the car so it won't flood. That, in dead cold weather like 5 Farenheit, is just moving the needle on my car. I have shut it down there with no difficulties on restart. I have also shut the car down with only 2-3 minutes of warming when I have had to and had no problems restarting it. Most of the flooded cars seem to be shut downs within a minute, but that's just from reading posts. There is a restart procedure in the Owner's Manual which does NOT seem to be able to be relied on. Some people have been able to restart their cars that way others haven't. It is possible I think to pull the plugs, run the engine with the injection shut off, clean the plugs and restart that car yourself in your own driveway if necessary if you are at all handy, but again I haven't had to try it.

In short, the flooding thing is over bown. If you are reasonably sensible and let the car idle for five minutes, it shouldn't be an issue, and for most of us, it hasn't been an issue.

As for fuel mileage, some people do seem to have a real mechanical problem, but it seems to be a smaller number. Other people seem to have bad mileage from hard driving. I have never gotten under 18 MPG in city driving, and I've never done a highway trip, so I don't know about that. Again, I think that the mileage is what it is. 16-18 City 20-22 highway seems to be attainable, but if your expectation is for more then you might want to think about another car. Some people do seem to be able to exceed this, but they seem to be very exceptional.

Fundementally, I am not concerned about the reliability of the car. It's been working fine every morning for me. Some people have had trouble, but that is true for all cars, and remember that the internet brings all mechanical failures very close to home that you might not hear about in past cars or other cars where the owners are not so on-line.

Last, the things that are important to mention. I didn't get where you live, but anywhere with snow you MUST have snow tires. The car is very difficult to drive without them, and it will not suffice as a daily driver without them. I have four wheel snows, and the car handles very well in snow and ice. Also, I believe that the car should be gently broken in for the first thousand miles. I did that, and my car runs like a top, but others may disagree. I felt that that was important, and the manual does recommend 650 miles of gentle driving.

All the best.

cebat

After reading all these comments, and you are still have doubt, You better just purchase a different car.
There are already too many rx -8 owners here who are blinded by such buyers remorse, that they can't see they have a unique and fantastic car.

Raevik

Thanks for all the positive reinforcement I'm glad to hear I wasn't the only one amazed by the vehicle.

I'm going to do it <closing eyes and crossing fingers!>

Haze

Good for you! Sometimes you just have to take that leap and go with your heart.

Icanrel-8

Hope it works out great for you, Llathos. I don't know what mileage you'll get, but does anyone expect EPA mileage on any vehicle? I'm sure if you read the Prius forum, a bunch of guys are grumbling, "I'm only getting 45 MPG! There should be a buy-back!"

And some poor version of ZeroBanger'll say he got 73MPG and a bunch of guys are jumping down his throat about is he sure he put gas in the TANK, and not in his pants pocket, and did he figure in Boyle's Law...

I've had to think hard about the 8, too. The draw is irresistible if you love driving, not just commuting. More practical, less expensive sporty-ish cars are everywhere, but it sounds as though you love that extra something. Aint it a bit(#?

Resistance is futile... :D

ArXate

Are you hoping I get banned?

ArXate

We need more information!!!! What region of the US are you in? What brand of gas? What octane? DSC off? Did you draft behind a truck? Come on!!!!!

Later.