Using clutch at stop light
10-12-2005, 10:02 PM
#26
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Cars today (including the RX-8) have Hydraulic assist clutch pedals. This means the clutch pedal is not directly connected (via a clutch fork) to the throw-out bearing. It is connected via an hydraulic line to the Clutch slave cylinder which is connected to the clutch fork to the throw-out bearing.
The big difference is the hydraulics assist and keep the effort to depress the pedal to a minimum effort. You younger guys and gals have probably never driven a non-hydraulic clutch car. My 1969 GTO clutch pedal required so much effort to depress the pedal, my leg would start to shake if I kept it depressed for a minute. You can't feel the pressure in todays cars because of the hydraulic assist.
What this all means is this: There is a tremendous amount of pressure on the throw-out bearing and the clutch fingers when the pedal is depressed, this most certainly will cause more wear, than when the pedal is not depressed. The throw-out bearing is a sealed unit packed with grease to lubricate the actual bearings inside it. It is only in contact with the clutch when the pedal is pressed. The longer it is in contact and spinning, the hotter the grease will become and eventually wear out.
Here is a link to show how this all works:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/clutch3.htm
The big difference is the hydraulics assist and keep the effort to depress the pedal to a minimum effort. You younger guys and gals have probably never driven a non-hydraulic clutch car. My 1969 GTO clutch pedal required so much effort to depress the pedal, my leg would start to shake if I kept it depressed for a minute. You can't feel the pressure in todays cars because of the hydraulic assist.
What this all means is this: There is a tremendous amount of pressure on the throw-out bearing and the clutch fingers when the pedal is depressed, this most certainly will cause more wear, than when the pedal is not depressed. The throw-out bearing is a sealed unit packed with grease to lubricate the actual bearings inside it. It is only in contact with the clutch when the pedal is pressed. The longer it is in contact and spinning, the hotter the grease will become and eventually wear out.
Here is a link to show how this all works:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/clutch3.htm
10-12-2005, 10:12 PM
#27
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Originally Posted by 6speed8
Cars today (including the RX-8) have Hydraulic assist clutch pedals. This means the clutch pedal is not directly connected (via a clutch fork) to the throw-out bearing. It is connected via an hydraulic line to the Clutch slave cylinder which is connected to the clutch fork to the throw-out bearing.
The big difference is the hydraulics assist and keep the effort to depress the pedal to a minimum effort. You younger guys and gals have probably never driven a non-hydraulic clutch car. My 1969 GTO clutch pedal required so much effort to depress the pedal, my leg would start to shake if I kept it depressed for a minute. You can't feel the pressure in todays cars because of the hydraulic assist.
What this all means is this: There is a tremendous amount of pressure on the throw-out bearing and the clutch fingers when the pedal is depressed, this most certainly will cause more wear, than when the pedal is not depressed. The throw-out bearing is a sealed unit packed with grease to lubricate the actual bearings inside it. It is only in contact with the clutch when the pedal is pressed. The longer it is in contact and spinning, the hotter the grease will become and eventually wear out.
Here is a link to show how this all works:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/clutch3.htm
The big difference is the hydraulics assist and keep the effort to depress the pedal to a minimum effort. You younger guys and gals have probably never driven a non-hydraulic clutch car. My 1969 GTO clutch pedal required so much effort to depress the pedal, my leg would start to shake if I kept it depressed for a minute. You can't feel the pressure in todays cars because of the hydraulic assist.
What this all means is this: There is a tremendous amount of pressure on the throw-out bearing and the clutch fingers when the pedal is depressed, this most certainly will cause more wear, than when the pedal is not depressed. The throw-out bearing is a sealed unit packed with grease to lubricate the actual bearings inside it. It is only in contact with the clutch when the pedal is pressed. The longer it is in contact and spinning, the hotter the grease will become and eventually wear out.
Here is a link to show how this all works:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/clutch3.htm
10-12-2005, 11:48 PM
#28
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Personally, I think the likelihood of doing damage to your clutch over the long term by keeping it depressed for a minute or two at the odd set of lights is minimal.
The little driving instruction I've had has resulted in me learning two things: 1. when you pull up at a set of lights leave enough room between you and the car in front so you can see the wheels of the car in front touch the road, and 2. leave it in gear (clutch depressed) so that in the event of an emergency you can take off ASAP.
The little driving instruction I've had has resulted in me learning two things: 1. when you pull up at a set of lights leave enough room between you and the car in front so you can see the wheels of the car in front touch the road, and 2. leave it in gear (clutch depressed) so that in the event of an emergency you can take off ASAP.
10-13-2005, 12:19 AM
#29
Klingon Grammarian
Originally Posted by capncrunch
Personally, I think the likelihood of doing damage to your clutch over the long term by keeping it depressed for a minute or two at the odd set of lights is minimal.
The little driving instruction I've had has resulted in me learning two things: 1. when you pull up at a set of lights leave enough room between you and the car in front so you can see the wheels of the car in front touch the road, and 2. leave it in gear (clutch depressed) so that in the event of an emergency you can take off ASAP.
The little driving instruction I've had has resulted in me learning two things: 1. when you pull up at a set of lights leave enough room between you and the car in front so you can see the wheels of the car in front touch the road, and 2. leave it in gear (clutch depressed) so that in the event of an emergency you can take off ASAP.
Krankor
05 Shinka 6MT
10-13-2005, 12:51 AM
#30
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You guys are right. It's actually safer to hold the clutch in at a stop light, because if you for some reason were unable to control your vehicle i.e. you fainted, had a seizure, or whatever, the car would stall out and not go anywhere instead of rolling into more potential trouble. Personally I think that's worth anynegligible damage and wear that may occur. My mechanic stepdad also said that it was not really an issue anymore, as opposed to the Elder Days.
10-13-2005, 08:48 AM
#31
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Originally Posted by Astral
Yeah, and why aren't you holding down the brake pedal, so that even if you slip your foot off the clutch, you don't actualy move all that much?
I have accidentally dropped the clutch when turning off my car the other day (I forgot to put it in neutral), lurching forward an inch and stalling the car. Because I always press the brake when stopped (habit from the days of driving an auto tranny).
I have accidentally dropped the clutch when turning off my car the other day (I forgot to put it in neutral), lurching forward an inch and stalling the car. Because I always press the brake when stopped (habit from the days of driving an auto tranny).
10-13-2005, 10:29 AM
#32
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You should have your foot on the brake whether you have your foot on the clutch or have the trans in neutral. If you use the clutch to keep the car from rolling back, you are most definitely subjecting it to wear.
10-14-2005, 06:29 PM
#33
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Originally Posted by wisconsinben
I keep the brake depressed to keep my brake lights on. With so many idiots on the road you never know who might think you're moving just cuz your brake lights aren't illuminated.
Now, if I remove my foot off the brake before I start, it's when the light has gone green and I'm ready to get going, just waiting for the car in front to get going.
10-14-2005, 06:52 PM
#34
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Page 5-9 on the 2004 (US owners manual) :
' keep your foot off the clutch pedal except when shifting gears. Also don't use the clutch to hold the vehicle on an upgrade. Riding the clutch will cause needless clutch wear and damage.'
' keep your foot off the clutch pedal except when shifting gears. Also don't use the clutch to hold the vehicle on an upgrade. Riding the clutch will cause needless clutch wear and damage.'
10-14-2005, 07:10 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by rx-8_or_?
Good point. I always keep my foot on the brake when I'm the last car in a lane. I used to leave my foot off the brake, but sometimes you don't realize until you've started rolling because you are on a sliiiight slope. And it's a pretty jarring realization when you see the car next to you "move backward"! "What's that idiot doing?", followed by, "Oh s**t, it's me!", followed by slamming on the brake, followed by presumably red cheeks in embarrassment!
Now, if I remove my foot off the brake before I start, it's when the light has gone green and I'm ready to get going, just waiting for the car in front to get going.
Now, if I remove my foot off the brake before I start, it's when the light has gone green and I'm ready to get going, just waiting for the car in front to get going.
If my 8 is stopped, for whatever reason, I am either on the brake pedal or the e-brake is up.
Sitting at stop lights without brakes is dangerous, because if someone rearends you, you can be thrusted into the intersection into a crossing car.
10-14-2005, 08:58 PM
#36
'04 MT RX8/71 351C Mach1
You younger guys and gals have probably never driven a non-hydraulic clutch car. My 1969 GTO clutch pedal required so much effort to depress the pedal, my leg would start to shake if I kept it depressed for a minute. You can't feel the pressure in todays cars because of the hydraulic assist.
6speed8,
You and I are definitely on the same page! My '71 Mach I taught me the same lessons about a clutch. Also, your later reference to the manual - "keep your foot off the clutch pedal except when shifting gears" is my basic philosophy.
Old guys can drive "new tech cars" too!!!
6speed8,
You and I are definitely on the same page! My '71 Mach I taught me the same lessons about a clutch. Also, your later reference to the manual - "keep your foot off the clutch pedal except when shifting gears" is my basic philosophy.
Old guys can drive "new tech cars" too!!!
Last edited by glassetcher; 10-14-2005 at 09:04 PM.
10-15-2005, 01:13 AM
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Turn this discussion around... why would you sit at a light with the clutch pedal depressed and the shift in gear?
There was only 1 positive for this action stated in the thread thus far. How about 4 more?
Personally, I am in the never touch the clutch except for shifitng camp.
There was only 1 positive for this action stated in the thread thus far. How about 4 more?
Personally, I am in the never touch the clutch except for shifitng camp.
10-15-2005, 02:16 AM
#39
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Originally Posted by Frostee
not just that, but when i stop the car, i can usually see their tires, if not some road even. that lets me know im close enough but not too close. even if i were to fall off the clutch without being on the brake, the lurch would only be about 6 inches (guessing here) and there would still be tons of room between me and the car in front. if i were 6 or closer, then i would hit the car in front, but that would also mean i was way too close to them.
10-15-2005, 03:06 PM
#40
Klingon Grammarian
Originally Posted by Nubo
Holding down the clutch is asking for trouble, imo. Sure, IF you've left enough distance, and IF you're holding the brakes firmly... etc. But problems have a tendency to cascade. If you're in the habit of holding in the clutch, you really don't think about it after awhile. Then one day for some reason, your foot slips. Maybe you dropped something or kids misbehaving, you got a cramp, etc. Suddenly the car lurches forward. You're startled and bounced around. It's not unusual in that situation for someone to release the brake as well, as they try to make sense out of what just happened. You might even hit the gas. There's really no gain, so why do it? If you're paying attention, there's plenty of time to clutch and shift before you need to move.
10-18-2005, 03:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Krankor
Balderdash. The number of times this has happened to me in 20 years of manual driving is ZERO.
I've logged 200K+ miles in manual transmission cars over the past 21 years of driving stick, always with the clutch and brake depressed and the transmission in gear at lights, with no problems with clutches or throwout bearings.
10-18-2005, 05:02 PM
#42
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Originally Posted by Krankor
Balderdash. The number of times this has happened to me in 20 years of manual driving is ZERO.
When you are sitting in the left lane and waiting to make a left turn, do you cut your wheels left or keep them straight until you initiate your turn?
Probably 99% of people will sit there with their wheels cut to the left but if you take a good defensive driving course you will have it drilled into your head that you sit there with the wheels straight ahead until you are ready to commit to the turn.
Why? Because if someone rolls into you from behind and your wheels are turned left they are going to push you into the oncoming traffic. You will have a head on collision that you could have avoided by keeping your wheels straight ahead.
Maybe it has never happened to you in your 200k miles of driving experience, but it can happen, and it does happen. Same as sitting at the light in gear with the clutch depressed. There are a lot of small things that you can do to reduce risks. Even when the risk is very low, if the effort to reduce the risk is low, why not take the effort?
10-18-2005, 06:07 PM
#43
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If you release the clutch with the car in gear, the car will stall and not move much, so it soesn't matter if the brakes are let go. If you are not in gear then there is no reason to hold the clutch in at a light or a stop, anyway. It seems it would be more dangerous to be in neutral holding the brake, because the car would roll if you let off the brake for some reason. I NEVER cut my wheels before I turn, and didn't even before I took DDriving. That sort of anticipation leads to accidents.
10-18-2005, 06:59 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by Nubo
Holding down the clutch is asking for trouble, imo. Sure, IF you've left enough distance, and IF you're holding the brakes firmly... etc. But problems have a tendency to cascade. If you're in the habit of holding in the clutch, you really don't think about it after awhile. Then one day for some reason, your foot slips. Maybe you dropped something or kids misbehaving, you got a cramp, etc. Suddenly the car lurches forward. You're startled and bounced around. It's not unusual in that situation for someone to release the brake as well, as they try to make sense out of what just happened. You might even hit the gas. There's really no gain, so why do it? If you're paying attention, there's plenty of time to clutch and shift before you need to move.
For those who do like to sit at stop lights with their car in neutral, well, that's fine except for one thing: please do not wait for the light to change to push in the clutch, select 1st gear and then engage the clutch to get moving. Many times I've seen the delay this causes in traffic flow to make the traffic signal think there's no more traffic approaching the intersection, so the light turns red prematurely.
1.3L
10-18-2005, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by 280RX-8
If you release the clutch with the car in gear, the car will stall and not move much, so it soesn't matter if the brakes are let go. If you are not in gear then there is no reason to hold the clutch in at a light or a stop, anyway. It seems it would be more dangerous to be in neutral holding the brake, because the car would roll if you let off the brake for some reason. I NEVER cut my wheels before I turn, and didn't even before I took DDriving. That sort of anticipation leads to accidents.
10-18-2005, 07:02 PM
#46
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Originally Posted by 1.3L
I've been driving manual transmission vehicles for 42 years and never experienced the "problems" you assert. Quite to the contrary, having my car in gear at a stop light has saved me from being rear-ended by another vehicle a few times.
For those who do like to sit at stop lights with their car in neutral, well, that's fine except for one thing: please do not wait for the light to change to push in the clutch, select 1st gear and then engage the clutch to get moving. Many times I've seen the delay this causes in traffic flow to make the traffic signal think there's no more traffic approaching the intersection, so the light turns red prematurely.
1.3L
For those who do like to sit at stop lights with their car in neutral, well, that's fine except for one thing: please do not wait for the light to change to push in the clutch, select 1st gear and then engage the clutch to get moving. Many times I've seen the delay this causes in traffic flow to make the traffic signal think there's no more traffic approaching the intersection, so the light turns red prematurely.
1.3L
10-18-2005, 07:52 PM
#47
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Originally Posted by NomisR
Letting go of the clutch while in gear would cause the car to lurch foward which is enough to cause damage even if minor if the brakes were not depressed. Having the car in neutral even when not in gear, the car would not roll fast enough to cause as great of a damage as the car lurching foward from the slipping of the clutch. Eitherway, whatever floats your boat I guess.
10-19-2005, 01:13 AM
#48
Klingon Grammarian
I'm not yielding the tiniest millimeter on this clutching issue. But side-question:
I keep them straight. You have to proceed into the intersection before you can start making the turn...
So I've never thought about this issue before, but you've got me thinking about it now. And as I think about it, I draw the exact *opposite* conclusion: turning the wheel left would be *better*.
If I get hit from behind and pushed into the intersection, wouldn't it be *better* to have the front of the car absorb the hit of an oncoming car rather than get hit in the *side*, where there's just a thin door protecting me? I feel I must be missing something here...
Krankor
05 Shinka 6MT
Originally Posted by beachdog
When you are sitting in the left lane and waiting to make a left turn, do you cut your wheels left or keep them straight until you initiate your turn?
Probably 99% of people will sit there with their wheels cut to the left but if you take a good defensive driving course you will have it drilled into your head that you sit there with the wheels straight ahead until you are ready to commit to the turn.
Why? Because if someone rolls into you from behind and your wheels are turned left they are going to push you into the oncoming traffic. You will have a head on collision that you could have avoided by keeping your wheels straight ahead.
Why? Because if someone rolls into you from behind and your wheels are turned left they are going to push you into the oncoming traffic. You will have a head on collision that you could have avoided by keeping your wheels straight ahead.
If I get hit from behind and pushed into the intersection, wouldn't it be *better* to have the front of the car absorb the hit of an oncoming car rather than get hit in the *side*, where there's just a thin door protecting me? I feel I must be missing something here...
Krankor
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10-19-2005, 02:03 AM
#49
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Originally Posted by Krankor
So I've never thought about this issue before, but you've got me thinking about it now. And as I think about it, I draw the exact *opposite* conclusion: turning the wheel left would be *better*.
If I get hit from behind and pushed into the intersection, wouldn't it be *better* to have the front of the car absorb the hit of an oncoming car rather than get hit in the *side*, where there's just a thin door protecting me? I feel I must be missing something here...
Krankor
05 Shinka 6MT
If I get hit from behind and pushed into the intersection, wouldn't it be *better* to have the front of the car absorb the hit of an oncoming car rather than get hit in the *side*, where there's just a thin door protecting me? I feel I must be missing something here...
Krankor
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10-19-2005, 02:58 AM
#50
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Okay, lets get one thing straight. Having your foot on the clutch will not hurt your car, also every one should have their foot on the break at a stop light at all times, unless your dumb, and begging for a crash.
I work on cars all the time, I drove my fathers car for 3 years, it was 15 years old, stock trans, an it was still workin fine when I gave it back. I press the clutch in, and the break at every stop light for 3 years. In 15 year old Ford, and nuthin ever happend.
Only thing I had to fix at the end of it was the tires. Did one or two burn outs in the beast.
Peace yall,
I work on cars all the time, I drove my fathers car for 3 years, it was 15 years old, stock trans, an it was still workin fine when I gave it back. I press the clutch in, and the break at every stop light for 3 years. In 15 year old Ford, and nuthin ever happend.
Only thing I had to fix at the end of it was the tires. Did one or two burn outs in the beast.
Peace yall,