U.S. cars versus the RX-8?
#27
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Originally posted by atr_hugo
Not only that but the S2000, the same size as a Miata, weighs 2800 lbs.
Not only that but the S2000, the same size as a Miata, weighs 2800 lbs.
The S2000, as you noted, does weigh around 2800 lbs. which is about 420 lbs more than the MX-5. Most of the weight difference is probably in the chasis, not the engine though. The quoted number I have seen for the F20C is 326 lbs "without accessories" and the weight of the 1.6l in the NA Miata is around 280 lbs. according to the folks over at Miatanet. I suspect the 1.8l in the NB weighs a little more. So, of the approximate 420 lb weight difference only 40-50lbs of that is engine. Seeing as neither of the cars is especially plush with amenities and they both have 16" wheels, I would suspect most of the remaining weight difference is in the chasis.
While I think the power, efficiency, and weight of the Renesis are all very nice attributes I think one of the biggest advantages over piston engines is the size. The ability to make the engine bay smaller and have the center of gravity lower than that of a piston engine should be a susbstantial advantage when it comes to handling.
#28
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Mazda, please listen to this. . .
Originally posted by Pablo
IMHO Mazda should not go too overboard with the prices on the next RX-7 - just look what happened to the sales figures when FC became FD!
What I think they ought do is to have an entry-level RX-7 with the standard RX-8 Renesis engine with a base price of around 30.000$, I think that would move quite a few cars!
The RX-7 RZ (or something like that), with the slightly larger engine, should start off at around 35.000$. If Mazda decides to put out another sports car with FD pricing, I'm afraid it might once again kill the rotary - it's great to be ambitious, but necesary to be realistic!
Cheers
Eske
IMHO Mazda should not go too overboard with the prices on the next RX-7 - just look what happened to the sales figures when FC became FD!
What I think they ought do is to have an entry-level RX-7 with the standard RX-8 Renesis engine with a base price of around 30.000$, I think that would move quite a few cars!
The RX-7 RZ (or something like that), with the slightly larger engine, should start off at around 35.000$. If Mazda decides to put out another sports car with FD pricing, I'm afraid it might once again kill the rotary - it's great to be ambitious, but necesary to be realistic!
Cheers
Eske
First, there is an RX-8 now! The only way that the RX-8 does not compete with the 350Z is in straight line performance. A possible 2 door RX-8 or MazdaSpeed either one will take care of that. There is your competitor for the 350Z.
A $40k RX-7 will not kill the rotary. The RX-8 is there to ensure that there is a rotary being sold in sufficient volume to turn a profit. The RX-7 will be a flagship car. If they break even on the RX-7 then it is nothing for them to worry about. The point of the RX-7 should be brand image. People should think "sports car", "zoom-zoom", and "RX-7" all in the same thought. Then they will remember the kids or look at the price and buy an RX-8.
The RX-7 should compete with the Corvette, NSX, and other halo cars. The RX-7 should win races and get glowing magazine reviews. This will sell a lot of RX-8s and Mazda6s and Protegés.
Remember also that $40k now is a lot cheaper than $40k in 1995. If the RX-7 were another FD it would be at least $50k. I don't think Mazda needs to be told any of this. They pay educated people to know the market and the industry. I fully believe that the main reason for the RX-8's existence (remember that it started with Mazda engineers working on their own time) is to make it possible to have a *****-to-the-wall RX-7.
Come on Mazda, do the right thing. Build an RX-7 that breaks even on profit, blows away machines at twice the price, and makes us all proud!
P.S. Sorry to be so off-topic, but all this talk of a neutered 7 got me fired up. :D
Last edited by Fëakhelek; 01-30-2003 at 08:51 AM.
#29
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Re: Mazda, please listen to this. . .
Originally posted by Fëakhelek
A $40k RX-7 will not kill the rotary. The RX-8 is there to ensure that there is a rotary being sold in sufficient volume to turn a profit. The RX-7 will be a flagship car. If they break even on the RX-7 then it is nothing for them to worry about. The point of the RX-7 should be brand image. People should think "sports car", "zoom-zoom", and "RX-7" all in the same thought. Then they will remember the kids or look at the price and buy an RX-8...
A $40k RX-7 will not kill the rotary. The RX-8 is there to ensure that there is a rotary being sold in sufficient volume to turn a profit. The RX-7 will be a flagship car. If they break even on the RX-7 then it is nothing for them to worry about. The point of the RX-7 should be brand image. People should think "sports car", "zoom-zoom", and "RX-7" all in the same thought. Then they will remember the kids or look at the price and buy an RX-8...
So don't be surprised if the RX7 is more expensive, and therefore, more limited. Especially since Mazda has the Miata that can serve as their "basic, lightweight, no frills" sports car.
---jps
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i agree that you have to consider the power to weight ratio, and you can't say that the vette is in another league, maybe the zo6. i know a person who bought an s2000 because it kept up with the vette in top end-vettes are heavy
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i know a person who bought an s2000 because it kept up with the vette in top end-vettes are heavy
Also, they have 405 HP.(that's a lot)
#32
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regular vette = 3200lbs
z06 = 3150
s2000 = 2800
"Heavy" is realtive, I guess 3150 might be considered heavy to an s2k owner. Top end? Hmmm... I don't know about that, but the stook would probably be more fun for auto-x...
z06 = 3150
s2000 = 2800
"Heavy" is realtive, I guess 3150 might be considered heavy to an s2k owner. Top end? Hmmm... I don't know about that, but the stook would probably be more fun for auto-x...
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From slalom poll:
02 Acura NSX ............... 65.8
02 RSX Type-S ............. 66.8
98 McLaren F1 ............. 64.5
99 TT Coupe (turbo)..... 64.4
02 330Ci ...................... 63.1
00 Camaro SS ............. 60.0
03 Corvette Z06 ........... 67.5
99 Viper GTS-R.............. 65.3
01 SVT Mustang Cobra . 62.9
01 Accord EX V6 ........... 58.2
01 S2000 ..................... 65.9
01 Miata ....................... 62.7
01 Maxima SE................ 60.4
00 Jetta GLX ................. 61.2
Z06 is faster in the slalom, so I guess all that extra weight didn't hurt it so bad on the track afterall, and the HP/Weight ratio on a Z06 is better than the S2000: (If my calculations are correct)
Z06 7.77 Lbs per 1HP
S2000 11.66 Lbs per 1HP
So I guess the only time that extra weight would hurt is if you were trying to ship the car with FEDEX.
02 Acura NSX ............... 65.8
02 RSX Type-S ............. 66.8
98 McLaren F1 ............. 64.5
99 TT Coupe (turbo)..... 64.4
02 330Ci ...................... 63.1
00 Camaro SS ............. 60.0
03 Corvette Z06 ........... 67.5
99 Viper GTS-R.............. 65.3
01 SVT Mustang Cobra . 62.9
01 Accord EX V6 ........... 58.2
01 S2000 ..................... 65.9
01 Miata ....................... 62.7
01 Maxima SE................ 60.4
00 Jetta GLX ................. 61.2
Z06 is faster in the slalom, so I guess all that extra weight didn't hurt it so bad on the track afterall, and the HP/Weight ratio on a Z06 is better than the S2000: (If my calculations are correct)
Z06 7.77 Lbs per 1HP
S2000 11.66 Lbs per 1HP
So I guess the only time that extra weight would hurt is if you were trying to ship the car with FEDEX.
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they were on the highway not a road course, and i doubt they were both professional drivers-and yes the vette is heavier than the s2k-if i were to put 300 horses in an s2k then what-the vette will loose
#37
well being that the s2k has NO low end torque, it'll likely loose initially to the 'vette everytime during acceleration, coming out of a corner, and maybe even 1/4-mile
'vette and s2k are not in the same class of sports cars, the same way that a civic si is not in the same class as the s2k
'vette and s2k are not in the same class of sports cars, the same way that a civic si is not in the same class as the s2k
#38
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Having a faster slalom or higher lateral Gs doesn't necessarily translate to faster track or auto-x times (especially auto-x). For example, the MKIV Supra was nearly as fast in the slalom and pulled almost as much lateral acceleration as the FD, but the FD is generally faster around a track and much faster at auto-x.
Also, having low torque doesn't really have an effect on track times, due to this thing called "downshifting".
Also, having low torque doesn't really have an effect on track times, due to this thing called "downshifting".
#39
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Please. S2000 v. Z06? I think the Z06 beats the S2000 in every objective measure. The Z06 is truly a world-class sports car. The S2000, as good as it is, just ins't in the same league. Sorry.
Regarding the fourth gen RX-7, I would really like to see Mazda do what so many other manufacturers do -- build a high performance version to create brand equity, and then sell the lower performance version to the masses. For example, all Mustangs benefit from the image created by the 2003 SVT Cobra -- all Vette's benefit from the Z06, etc. This brand equity then translates into additional sales of base model Mustangs and Vettes.
So, assuming that Mazda builds a 1.5L rotary, use that as the base motor, with about 300 hp. Then, breathe on that motor a bit and offer a high performance RX-7 making roughly 400 hp. Mazda may not make any money on the high performance version, but presumably it will boost sales of the base model.
I also like this scheme becuase buyers will be able to purchase the level of performance they desire -- i.e., those who want the supercar will be able to buy it, while the platform will simultaneously serve the needs of individuals who are satisfied with decent, but not spectacular performance.
Anyway, I'd rather see Mazda adopt a marketing scheme such as this than pursuea "one size fits all" approach, especially if it means neutering the next gen RX-7.
FWIW,
Regarding the fourth gen RX-7, I would really like to see Mazda do what so many other manufacturers do -- build a high performance version to create brand equity, and then sell the lower performance version to the masses. For example, all Mustangs benefit from the image created by the 2003 SVT Cobra -- all Vette's benefit from the Z06, etc. This brand equity then translates into additional sales of base model Mustangs and Vettes.
So, assuming that Mazda builds a 1.5L rotary, use that as the base motor, with about 300 hp. Then, breathe on that motor a bit and offer a high performance RX-7 making roughly 400 hp. Mazda may not make any money on the high performance version, but presumably it will boost sales of the base model.
I also like this scheme becuase buyers will be able to purchase the level of performance they desire -- i.e., those who want the supercar will be able to buy it, while the platform will simultaneously serve the needs of individuals who are satisfied with decent, but not spectacular performance.
Anyway, I'd rather see Mazda adopt a marketing scheme such as this than pursuea "one size fits all" approach, especially if it means neutering the next gen RX-7.
FWIW,
#40
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Originally posted by RedRX
I would really like to see Mazda do what so many other manufacturers do -- build a high performance version to create brand equity, and then sell the lower performance version to the masses. For example, all Mustangs benefit from the image created by the 2003 SVT Cobra -- all Vette's benefit from the Z06, etc. This brand equity then translates into additional sales of base model Mustangs and Vettes.
So, assuming that Mazda builds a 1.5L rotary, use that as the base motor, with about 300 hp. Then, breathe on that motor a bit and offer a high performance RX-7 making roughly 400 hp. Mazda may not make any money on the high performance version, but presumably it will boost sales of the base model.
Anyway, I'd rather see Mazda adopt a marketing scheme such as this than pursuea "one size fits all" approach, especially if it means neutering the next gen RX-7.
I would really like to see Mazda do what so many other manufacturers do -- build a high performance version to create brand equity, and then sell the lower performance version to the masses. For example, all Mustangs benefit from the image created by the 2003 SVT Cobra -- all Vette's benefit from the Z06, etc. This brand equity then translates into additional sales of base model Mustangs and Vettes.
So, assuming that Mazda builds a 1.5L rotary, use that as the base motor, with about 300 hp. Then, breathe on that motor a bit and offer a high performance RX-7 making roughly 400 hp. Mazda may not make any money on the high performance version, but presumably it will boost sales of the base model.
Anyway, I'd rather see Mazda adopt a marketing scheme such as this than pursuea "one size fits all" approach, especially if it means neutering the next gen RX-7.
#41
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C'mon now, There's this guy named Lingenfelter(sp?) who'll do a little tinkering with a Z06 and nothing(well close to nothing) can touch it.
For a small fee of $49995, of course
check out http://www.lingenfelter.com/pac725ttls1y.asp
For a small fee of $49995, of course
check out http://www.lingenfelter.com/pac725ttls1y.asp
#42
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What about the Neon SRT-4
Nobody has mentioned the Neon SRT-4! Yes you can talk about the build quality but some of us (myself included) care about the speed first and the SRT-4 doing 0-60 in 5.6 seconds is amazingly fast for a car that is priced under $20,000. I don't want to offend anybody but I have been seriously considering an RX-8 but it is just too damn slow for me. It is a gorgeous car and I still may get one for my wife but it needs more grunt.
#43
If you really care about the speed, you'll realize that 0-60 times don't mean a damn thing.
And considering the Neon is very much like the WRX in that at the top end of the speed spectrum, it sucks... you go right ahead and get it.
In the end it will still be a Neon, that's FWD and boring.
And considering the Neon is very much like the WRX in that at the top end of the speed spectrum, it sucks... you go right ahead and get it.
In the end it will still be a Neon, that's FWD and boring.
#44
I'm no fan of torque steer and would never buy one, but I would not call it boring. All the reviews I have read have given it a lot of praise. As for no top end, sports compact car did the quarter in 14.2 @ 99.5 as shown in the following link:
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/ro.../012scc_dodge/
Personally, if you can afford an RX8 and are into a point and shoot fast turbo car, I'd go for EVO 8 (if you can grab one at MSRP). Its faster and has got terrific handling.
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/ro.../012scc_dodge/
Personally, if you can afford an RX8 and are into a point and shoot fast turbo car, I'd go for EVO 8 (if you can grab one at MSRP). Its faster and has got terrific handling.
#45
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Originally posted by Hercules
If you really care about the speed, you'll realize that 0-60 times don't mean a damn thing.
In the end it will still be a Neon, that's FWD and boring.
If you really care about the speed, you'll realize that 0-60 times don't mean a damn thing.
In the end it will still be a Neon, that's FWD and boring.
I'm sure the guys driving a sporty $30K+ RX8 are going to feel good when handed their a$$e$ by a sub $20K Neon (and yes, it will happen in at least one objective measure).
But I probably have it all wrong.
And one more comment about the Z06. Someone was saying that an S2000 kept up with one on the highway?!?!?! I just don't see that happening. The Z06 turns 115+ mph in the 1/4, stock, versus about 100 for the S2000. When these two cars line up on the highway, the result is called a massacre. And please, no grandstanding about highway racing. I'm just making a point here.
#46
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Originally posted by revhappy
Personally, if you can afford an RX8 and are into a point and shoot fast turbo car, I'd go for EVO 8 (if you can grab one at MSRP). Its faster and has got terrific handling.
Personally, if you can afford an RX8 and are into a point and shoot fast turbo car, I'd go for EVO 8 (if you can grab one at MSRP). Its faster and has got terrific handling.
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Originally posted by Ray G
I totally agree with you on that one however I have one major problem which makes life difficult for me. I only buy American.
I totally agree with you on that one however I have one major problem which makes life difficult for me. I only buy American.
I like the SRT-4 - not sure if I'd buy one, but glad it's out there. Of course, I liked the old Dodge GLH cars too. Rude and crude but who cares?
Although if straight line performance was my thing, a Mustang would be hard to pass up, particularly the next gen if you could wait.
#48
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Well, the cars I am considering over the RX-8 are listed below (although if I could comfortably afford the RX-8, there would be no contest).
-Mazdaspeed Protege. Nothing else touches it for $27k (canadian). 95% sure I'll end up in one soon.
-Ford Focus SVT. (dealers are discounting)
-Used Ford Contour SVT (screaming bargain on the used car market)
(yes I know all the above are FWD, but the Focus and the Protege don't constantly remind you of it. In the Protege, it is amazing how good the suspension is, and how transparently the drivetrain does its job.)
-Used BMW 3-series. Damn these hold their value well, unfortunate for the buyer.
-Mazdaspeed Protege. Nothing else touches it for $27k (canadian). 95% sure I'll end up in one soon.
-Ford Focus SVT. (dealers are discounting)
-Used Ford Contour SVT (screaming bargain on the used car market)
(yes I know all the above are FWD, but the Focus and the Protege don't constantly remind you of it. In the Protege, it is amazing how good the suspension is, and how transparently the drivetrain does its job.)
-Used BMW 3-series. Damn these hold their value well, unfortunate for the buyer.
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Originally posted by Grimace
Well, the cars I am considering over the RX-8 are listed below (although if I could comfortably afford the RX-8, there would be no contest).
-Used Ford Contour SVT (screaming bargain on the used car market)
(yes I know all the above are FWD, but the Focus and the Protege don't constantly remind you of it. In the Protege, it is amazing how good the suspension is, and how transparently the drivetrain does its job.)
Well, the cars I am considering over the RX-8 are listed below (although if I could comfortably afford the RX-8, there would be no contest).
-Used Ford Contour SVT (screaming bargain on the used car market)
(yes I know all the above are FWD, but the Focus and the Protege don't constantly remind you of it. In the Protege, it is amazing how good the suspension is, and how transparently the drivetrain does its job.)
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And one more comment about the Z06. Someone was saying that an S2000 kept up with one on the highway?!?!?! I just don't see that happening. The Z06 turns 115+ mph in the 1/4, stock, versus about 100 for the S2000. When these two cars line up on the highway, the result is called a massacre. And please, no grandstanding about highway racing. I'm just making a point here.