PSTNLSS

iTrader: (3)

You definitely don't need an oil wrench. I bought one. It was more hassle then jsut shoving my hand down there.

20 bucks at the dealer? Wow. Thats crazy

I use Castrol GTX 5w-30. I put in almost what was recommended in owner's manual (5qt i believe?)

The Castrol runs between like 20-26 bucks depending. Walmart sells it rather cheap actually. I bought it at Costco thinking it would be cheapest. Looking in walmart I coulda saved 5 bucks more.

Oh well.

always.anthony

wow thank you for sharing that bit. well, in your opinion, do you think 5w-20 would be ok to run, for daily driving and track use, depending on how much money/how good i get. it might come down to every weekend or every other, or once a month or every half year, who knows.

i've ran my 8 pretty hard, and the temp gauge seems to just sit right there in the middle, and and have had the fans kick up and only last like 30 seconds after i shut it off (i always let it run a little before shutting off after a hard run)

i can understand 5w-20 for daily driving, but for track it seems kinda thin

and i hate how every other country but the u.s. uses 5w-30

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

You might want to run to your local Autozone and grab some stuff.

No way GTX cost 20-26 bux ... or maybe in NJ ?

cuz in NYC, autozone running a deal of 5 quarts of Syntec + K&N filter for 29.99. and 5 Castrol GTX + Fram filter(I know its garbage filter ... just saying) for 15.99.

even without these oil change deal, usually they sell GTX for something like 2-3 bux a quart.

Still cheaper than your 20-26 bucks for 5 quarts(I assume you mean 5 quarts for that price)

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

check out expo's motor. his motor wasn't leaking coolant (not to the inside), same kind of wear at the same parts.

never seen these kind of wear in older rotaries. only renesis with the 5w-20 recommendation.

so that should tell you something ? right ?

I know Im using 0/10w-40. 20w50 for summer.

rotaryspitfire

nycgps, your last link led me to some knowledge I was looking for. For healthy debate, not insults as you will find in some other threads. Actually, some of the people throwing the insults were just showing there own ignorance. I'm not referencing you BTW!

Anyway, I agree that 5w20 seems to thin. But your first link to the rebuild at RR discounted your argument about 5w20 oil and did nothing to build your creditability to persuade me to use a heavier weight oil. I know I'm not a fountain of knowledge and if anyone on this forum can help/persuade me to do better for my car, I'm all for it..... but your argument has to be sound! So with that said I believe we all have good intentions with our cars and wish to pass this knowledge on to help other rotary lovers.

Fair enough?

I found Rotarygod and his arguments to be non persuasive and he seemed to make conclusions without full knowledge of how a rotary engine works. So he cherry picked real facts and certainly did some reasearch only to come to false conclusions.

The concern with synthetic oil is with it's inability to burn clean and leave no residue. Remember that motor oil is shot into the combustion chamber/housing to lubricate internal parts (Apex seals) that will not see the benefits of normal oil ports and lubrication practices. The rotary engine design just simply does hot allow lubrication like a piston engine does. So.........who can show me any research on how clean synthetic oil burns and how conventional oil burns. I personally have used a high grade two stroke MARINE ENGINE OIL in my premix. Quicksilver is a decent brand. Evenrude makes the best!


Rotarygod also presented some research about oil breakdown at 100 C. Converted that is 212F. Racing beat.com says that most oil temps will top out at 210. So another mute point about how synthetic oil is better because its viscocity is a little better than convential oil at the same temp. The infallable laws of Physics comes into play here. Your oil coolers are exposed to the outside air temp also known as the ambient air temp in refernce to your radiator and your coolers. So you have a small radiator at 210 f and the rest of the general area (ambient) at ......lets say 100 f. Who will win that fight? an area of about 2 square feet or an area as big as the current weather system that brought you the temps that day????? Now, bring that 2 foot square area into contact with moving ambiet air and you will be hard pressed to bring your oil temps above 212f. Now air with higher humidity will not be able to withdraw as much energy (heat is really a measurement of potential energy) as dry air. So someone in Florida will take longer to cool down than someone in Arizona.

Synthetic oil is no better in your rotary engine at the average operating temps.
Only if you experience what any mechanical engineer would call "Severe" driving conditions. You think you are being so good to your car........you may feel good but your bank account is suffering. At a 3k oil change average, use conventional oil!!!!! Maybe not 5w20, but certainly not Synthetic for the sole reason that it burns dirty and does more harm than good.

Synthetic oil in your rearend or MT is a good idea I think.

BTW the way, the best way to remove and keep carbon buildup from forming in your rotary engine is to redline that bitch once a week. After 7500 rpm? the carbon will burn off...............No need for this fancy crap cleaning procedures.....redline that puppy. BUT ONLY AFTER SHE IS WARMED UP!!!!

Anyway, the internet has opened the door for any doofus who can type to express his her opinion. Just like I did..........

shazy

Sorry your first mistake, is that you use Marine outboard oil, it contains TC W3 which is bad for the Cat and some other parts. Go ask StealthTL as he (or she) about oil, as he/she knows what they are talking about. You need Jaso certified or something like that, For example Amsoil Interceptor, saber pro, etc.

Many people have been using Synthetic and hasn't shown any side effect, since you've only been a member for 2 months, you should look more on what people use and ask them.

rotaryspitfire

You speak true about TWC 3..................... And I would rather have Mazda replace a cat than an engine..........

And after my warranty is over I'm cutting that cat out of my car anyway

Shazy, you make my point about ignorance........I have been an 8 owner for two months but I have been a rotary owner/rebuilder for over 30 years. Looking at this forum is only a basis to do other homework.


What side effects would you expect to see????? Another comment not worth making

When you can back what you say without just pointing a finger to someone else research. When you gain the ability to think, then speak up and you will be heard! Until then, go ask your mom to cook dinner for you.

robrecht

rotaryspitfire

My point is..........read for yourself and make your own decisions

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...oil/index.html

http://www.yocracing.com/star/tech%2...%20Oil%202.htm

http://www.valvoline.com/carcare/art...cid=2&scccid=2

The reason that Mazda doesn't recommend synthetic is because cheap synthetics can leave ash behind when burnt (and oil is injected directly into your engine to lubricate it). This causes a build up of carbon which can eventually lead to seal failure.

They can't say "Only using synthetics from name brand places is fine" or whatever, so it's easier to say "don't use synthetics at all."

So short answer: If you're going to use cheap stuff, use conventional, if you want to use good stuff, use synthetic. I use good conventional oil, because I'm kinda religious about oil changes anyway, and I don't think it's going to break down too badly in the 3000 miles it's going to be in my car..

from what ive gathered in my many searches on the same subject...
the only reason synthetic is bad is because it does not lubricate as well when burned in the combustion chamber. otherwise its fine. so if you eliminate your OMP and start premixing i would say theres no reason to not use synthetic.

Thanks to Rotarygod who linked this on RX7.com

http://www.rotaryaviation.com/oil_in...daptors.htmAre synthetics worth the extra cost?

Note, too, that most auto manufacturers do not specify synthetics, so unless you're one of the few who need synthetic oil, rest assured that you're doing no harm with good old-fashioned crude as long as you follow the owner's manual recommendations on viscosity and grade.


Can I use synthetic oils in my Rotary engined car?
Yes and no. Mazda officially does not recommend the use of synthetic oils in rotary engines, however, long term and racing use has shown that the better synthetics (Redline, Amsoil, Neo, Royal Purple, Mobil1) are perfectly fine to use in a rotary engine, and will generally result in a 1 to 2% horsepower gain. However use of poor quality synthetics (like Valvoline, Castrol Syntec, Havoline, Etc) will result in build up due to high ash content left from these oils when they are burned. It is believed that is why Mazda did not recommend synthetics, because the couldn't pick favorites.

Other notes:
The Mazda Factory racing departments recommend and use ‘synthetic’ oils including the winning 1991 Leman’s 20-G 4 rotor Mazda 787B.

MazdaComp USA printed manual (now Mazdaspeed) recommends the use of synthetic oils for racing conditions.

Redline, Amsoil and Royal Purple Synthetic Motor Oils have been used in rotary engines (both race and street) for ten plus years with excellent results.

Most Synthetic Motor Oil is compatible with the bearing material, sealing elastomer's, and combustion seals used in a rotary engine.

Just a matter of choice..............

robrecht

BTW, Mazda brands and distributes synthetic oil specifically for rotaries. Some of your later statments seem to have already contradicted your advice to "never use synthetic oil."

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

5w20 is too thin. thats for sure. Its simple to tell. Ever since they "introduce" thinner and thinner oil for "better emission". Engine reliability(all, not just rotary) has been going down hill, now days it will hard to find an engine use 5w20 only to last over 200K miles.

Synthetic - its funny that you said "cheap" synthetic might leave ash behind. Dont forget, MOST if not ALL cheap synthetic are actually NOT Synthetic oil. In the US, Group III oil could be called Synthetic. and its NOT true Synthetic. PAO or Ester based are the only true synthetic and they're more refined than ANYTHING below it so its never cheap.

Not to mention, do you seriously think a more refined oil like Group IV or V will have more ash than Group III and II when burn?

So whats left ? Additives.

Im pretty sure all of them has more than 1 of the "same" additives in them. some will have extra, like Mobil1 extended performance, they said it will last at least 15K miles, of course they will dump a lot of extra additives into it so they can last longer. will "those" cause ash? maybe. but "if" these additives causes the problem. Mineral brother will get the same problem. Synthetic based stock is not the cause.


and Dont forget, even Mazda's "recommended" 5w20 does have Synthetic stock in them(thats the only way to make such ridiculous weight oil possible) Rotary engine, as long as they burn 4 cycle oil, they will get ash/carbon. and most people drive it like regular car. More carbon.

Oh yes. one more thing, Mazda Japan sells PAO based (Group IV) Full Synthetic oil 0w-30 for Rotary engines, oh yes its for rx-8 too. Mazda don't make oils, so it must be some kind of rebrand stuff. How do you explain that ?

Castrol(BP)'s Syntec is one of the great example of "real" and "fake" Synthetic. All their Syntec are NOT true Synthetic EXCEPT the 0w-30. 0w30 is the ONLY true Synthetic in their line and if I want to buy Syntec, 0w30 is the only one. (Forget about Valvoline and Halvoline, they're so whack not even funny)

tunerwannab

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE=nycgps;2921865]now days it will hard to find an engine use 5w20 only to last over 200K miles.
QUOTE]

Im not saying its good for rotaries since I am VERY new to them, but i do see cars all the time in the 150k-250k range at work that use 5w20. Mostly hondas, and 97and later ford trucks.(F-series, expedition)

rotaryspitfire

Most people aren't as **** about their cars as Wankel lovers. But there some clueless comsumers out there. So I can understand how Mazda is concerned that it is safer to not use Synthetic when someone would think that "oil is oil so I'm buying the cheap stuff" This is the same person who doesn't understand that a 13b loves RPMs and the occasional red line is actually good for the engine.

So "never use synthetic" might be a bit harse.....................

"BTW, Mazda brands and distributes synthetic oil specifically for rotaries. Some of your later statments seem to have already contradicted your advice to "never use synthetic oil.""

Ok, is this for the Mazda racing market or the general public? If for the general public, then why does Mazda not allow it's use in the consumer market?

Synthetics will leave more ash than conventional when burned. As far as lubrication properties in harsh conditions Synthetic is better.

But....if you change your oil religiously at 3k, you might want to use but do not need to use Synthetic oil. There is no gained benefit!! So I have seen all this stuff about why Synthetic is a better lubricant, I agree......... stands up better to extreme heat, I agree........but we purposely burn oil everytime we run our car. Royal Purple completely dodged the question or did not understand that a rotary injects oil to burn it on there web site!!! And who else is better to tute the Royal Purple horn than Royal Purple, why would they point out one single thing that is less than perfect there product? An unbiased opinion about a product will not come from the company salesman.

If you want to use Synthetic go ahead, but for a daily driver RX8 that is red lined once a week to burn off carbon deposits I am not convinced that the extra cost of Synthetic is doing more for me than conventional oil.

I have been consistant about my concern about Synthetic oils quote "The concern with synthetic oil is with it's inability to burn clean and leave no residue."

robrecht

General public: http://www.mazda.co.jp/service/parts...e_renesis.html

In case you speak Google:

SHINSERENESHISU is, RENESIS Akira Makoto Mazda is dedicated to oil. ベースオイルはPAO※を主成分としてエステルを配合した100%化学合成油であり、RENESISに適し た性状のものを採用しています。 Base oil is a combination of PAO ※ ester as a main component is a 100% synthetic oil, RENESIS uses for the property.
粘度はスポーツカーのエンジンに求められる走行性能に適した0W-30に設定しています。
※PAO：Polyalpha-Olefin（ポリアルファオレフィン）の頭文字をとった化学合成物質 ※ PAO: Polyalpha-Olefin (polyalphaolefin) synthetic material taken from the initials of

エンジンの耐摩耗性とRE（ロータリーエンジン）スポーツカーとしての走りを両立させるRENESIS用オ イルとして開発されたのがシンセレネシスです。 And engine wear resistance of RE (rotary engine) to run both as a sports car is the Renesis SHINSERENESHISU has been developed as an oil.
RENESISではカーボンデポジットの生成によるガスシール性能の悪化が懸念されるため、これまで合成油 の使用を推奨していませんでした。 Renesis to be hurt by gas sealing performance of carbon deposit formation, did not recommend the use of synthetic oil before.
シンセレネシスは、合成油としての高い耐摩耗性を発揮しながら、今までの合成油ではなしえなかったカーボン デポジットの大幅な低減を実現していますので、RE（ロータリーエンジン）スポーツカーとしての走りをフル に発揮させながら、エンジンの耐久性を高めることができます。 SHINSERENESHISU, while demonstrating a high resistance to wear as a synthetic oil, so to achieve a major reduction in the carbon deposit had ever talking with synthetic oil, RE (rotary engine) sports car ran as while the full exercise can improve the durability of the engine.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

5w20 is so good that even Castrol said use it if you want better emission and Fuel Econ. No word about engine stability.

More refined oil leave more ash? thats new to me.

Like I said, its the additives thats the problem here. and Mineral oil uses more of the same Additives.(Mineral oil needs more Additives to archive the higher viscosity) So if they leave any ash, they both will.

That oil? Super General Public.

You can get it in Japan at any Mazda dealer.

True Synthetic oil are either PAO or Ester based.

Mazda's "Synthetic" oil is based on PAO. so Whats the deal here ?

Mazda must be smoking !

Even if I wanna use conventional oil I will use something heavier. 5w20 is just pathetic.

rotaryspitfire

Tunerwannab, welcome to the rotary family, follow these suggestions and you will have a high mileage engine too.

1. Oil, you motor purposely injects and burns it. Check it every other fill up. Or about every 500 miles.
2. Oil, change it on a regular basis. Synthetic or not...your choice. You know my opinion.......
3. Your engine is made of different metals. Basically Iron and Aluminum. Let it warm up completely before going above 4k Do you know what your red line buzzer sounds like?? Find out every now and then. The First Gen Rx7s buzzer used to rattle my teeth it was so loud and obnoxious. The RX8 is much better
4. Never ever let your car overheat, check you radiator fluid on a regular basis. If you temp gauge goes past its normal place, pull over and find out what is going on.

rotaryspitfire

nycgps, I'll try to find the Mazda article about the Synthetic ash and post a link for you.

We aren't in Japan so I don't understand the point. A car made for the jap market cannot be sold in this country legally, for many reasons that include safety and emission regulations.

Being refined has nothing to do with burn properties at specific temps and compression ratios. Something that is organic in nature is different than something that that was created in a lab or is Synthetic in the way it burns! The atomic properties are completely different.

Ok, my head hurts and tomorrow is a sunny day and I hope to get the road crime from the last few rainy days off my car!!

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

No need, robrecht already post the Mazda's own Synthetic oil link out and yes they can buy it easy in Japan.

So any "BS" from Mazda about Synthetic leaves ash is totally pointless. (remember, Mazda's oil is PAO based. One of the "un-natural" oil that "supposed" to leave ash, guess not)

as far as I understand, yes, US's Rx-8 has "stricter" emission rules in ECU than Japan thats one of the reason why E-Manage Blue didnt work for US but it works fine with Japan.

but this Synthetic thing has nothing to do with emission. (or safety)

Atomic properties are completely different? depends on how you look at it.

and like I said, based stock(oil alone) is NOT the cause. Additives are

robrecht

So now you're revising your prohibition to: "BTW, never use synthetic oil ... except in Japan"? Unbelievable.

rotaryspitfire

Don't put words in my mouth robert and I already explained my first comment. If that oil is super available in Japan why not here? That was my point! Where did I say """So now you're revising your prohibition to: "BTW, never use synthetic oil ... except in Japan"? Unbelievable. ""

nycgps If you don't want to read why Mazda originally did not want to use Synthetic oil that's fine with me. Stay in the dark

I haven't read the article robertech posted but obviously Mazda had to do some research and improve the burn qualities of an oil they did not recommend for years! If the burn quality is better than I will recend my comment to never use Synthetic oil................That is why we have discussions on this forum

And yes, the non Synthetic weight of 5w20 has everything to do with emissions in this country. Should I post that link too??

Come on guys get serious, that was a link to MAZDA JAPAN, not MAZDA AMERICA

tunerwannab

iTrader: (1)

I have learned all hose things from reading on this forum, but thank you. Those should be the first things new members read but instead they just post new threads about it.

Checking fluids is done about once a week since i work at jiffy lube and just do it every time i vaccum my car.

I dont agree with your once a week policy on redlining however. I much prefer the twice a day method.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

the "anti-synthetic" thing first started because Mazda used cheap seals and Mobil's synthetic oil ate them alive ~~ happened 30 something years ago. Its not really mobil's fault. Mazda knew it and they "ate" the cost of replacing "more than enough" engines with updated seals. after that, they hate synthetic oil so much so they simply blames everything on it (and people believe it ... sad)

notice, it has "nothing" to do with Synthetic leaving ash behind.

Carbon is a problem that Mazda has been trying to get rid of for the past 40+ years of Rotary development. still failed, and they will never really succeed as long as they still use 4 cycle oil as lube.

5w20 is one of the worst thing ever for automobiles, its created for pathetic emission standard set by clueless politicians who just want votes. There is a reason why almost no other place on earth wants 5w20 as stock fill, mostly just US.(most stock fills are 5w30, some BMWs still use 0w40, if 5w20 is so good, why dont they use it?)

There is 0w10 oil, but its for racing only. Its created so the engine can at least last thru the race. if one day they find some additives that can make it last thru the whole warranty period ...

oh one more thing, Gasoline when burn, leaves ashes too. in fact. most ashes(or carbon) came from Gasoline. Check it out. there are studies on it.

So why use Synthetic oils ? Well, Rotary engine runs "really hot", 1/3 of the heat will be carried away by oil. so You want something that will last thru extreme heat with minimum impurities in them. Synthetic it is.

so ---- extreme heat? so it wont burn ! Uhh huh, I dont think any oil can "resist" 1600+f degrees in the Combustion chambers. so yeah.

rotaryspitfire

This is it in a nutshell I cut and paste the links you won't read!!

Mazda's actually ok'd the use of synthetic in the Rx8. The original "we don't recommend synthetics" was from the old rx7 era of the old style synthetics.

The rotary engine uses oil to help cool, and thus, burns more oil then a normal piston engine does. The old style synthetics would leave behind a residue that would build up over time, and BAM...not good.

This no longer applies to current technology of synthetics, as many of the base stocks are of far higher quality. A good number of rx8 owners are now running 5w-20 redline as their primary oil choice.

So congrats you guys, don't ever use Synthetic will not pass my keyboard anymore.


And we are talking about oil, not gasoline!

And the Mazda seals were perfect for conventional oil, AMSOIL didn't worry about Mazda seals when it developed Synthetic, Synthetic wasn't even originally developed for cars!!!! Here is a link about the history of Syn oils http://www.cpinternet.com/~ennyman/syn-hist.html

10 years ago there still was a problem with ASH in Synthetic oils, it was the ASH in the oil, not gas that was causing problems in the rotary...................And it had everything to do with ash as stated by MAZDA, not nycgps.....And Mobil did not develop Synthetic oil, AMSOIL DID, your talking to a guy that was there when it all happened

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

I never said Mobil develop Synthetic oil. checked. All I said was, Mazda hate Synthetic because it ate their cheap rubber seals.

I study a bit about oil properties before so I know what you mean, the different is there but that is not the main point.

You can keep using the regular oil. no one is stopping you. I use my Synthetic. Not like Synthetics are expensive anyway, just got some today, 5 quart of good PAO stuff for like 4-5 bux each with K&N filter not even 30 bux. Im happy with that.

Just like when I buy Organic food people called me crazy. Why pay 3 bux for a bag of Organic celery when I can get the same conventional 1 lb bag for 1.25. I grow up with regular food but Now I want to treat myself better. while no studies to-date can proof that Organic food makes ya more healtier. but I know that the less crap they use to grow those food, the more natural it is. the more healthy it is.

05rex8

iTrader: (7)

STFU about not using synthetic oils already.
http://www.royalpurple.com/faqs-rotary.html

Die all you synthetic haters!