Track Day Voids Warranty?
05-25-2007, 11:58 AM
#51
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I agree too, but if an owner causes the failure due to over-reving the engine, I'm sure they can detect this and still deny service. If you didn't over-rev and something died out on the track (and all fluids normal) I would think it would be easier to get the warranty work done.
05-25-2007, 12:23 PM
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^^
Good advice here. Why would someone take their car to Mazda with the R-compounds still on the car? They're just going to take one look and deny service. I track my car ocassionally and if I blow the motor due to mis-shift or over-rev then damage is on me and out of my pocket. If something fails due to manufacturing or engineering defect then in my opinion it should be covered under warranty. High performance cars should be able to handle a little track time without issues as long as you're diligent on the maintenance.
Like you said Stew, back in '85 if they can tell if you over-rev by looking at the rpm memory, they can do it today. So even if you swap out tires and bring it in they'll check to see if it's been abused and decide if they'll deny service. There's usually tell-tell signs of abuse and leaving track tires on a car is a definate red flag and will probably blacklist your car for warranty work.
Good advice here. Why would someone take their car to Mazda with the R-compounds still on the car? They're just going to take one look and deny service. I track my car ocassionally and if I blow the motor due to mis-shift or over-rev then damage is on me and out of my pocket. If something fails due to manufacturing or engineering defect then in my opinion it should be covered under warranty. High performance cars should be able to handle a little track time without issues as long as you're diligent on the maintenance.
Like you said Stew, back in '85 if they can tell if you over-rev by looking at the rpm memory, they can do it today. So even if you swap out tires and bring it in they'll check to see if it's been abused and decide if they'll deny service. There's usually tell-tell signs of abuse and leaving track tires on a car is a definate red flag and will probably blacklist your car for warranty work.
05-25-2007, 12:32 PM
#53
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I already spoke to Mazda's customer service so there are no secrets here. I understand that "racing" will void the warranty. But my argument is that I was not racing, it was at a high performance driving school on a closed course. To drive an RX8 anywhere approaching its limits on the street would be redonkulously dangerous/ extremely illegal.
(nor should they).The problem is they don't know if you caused the damage or if the damage was and engineering/manufacturing defect which would be covered under warranty. By having the R-compounds on the car they already have an easy out by saying it was abused and raced instead of having to look closer. Did they even look at the motor yet and determine the cause of failure or even hook up a computer to it to know if you over-revved it or something?
Since you've already talked to Mazda, the car may be black flagged and taking it to another dealership may not help. You might want to give it a try depending on who you've already talked to about the issue.
As far as fixing it yourself, the dealer quotes are always high since their labor rates are high. Look for another shop that can do rebuilds. I can't imagine it's $7k to fix though.
05-25-2007, 12:33 PM
#54
He's as bad as Can
Jason, the club you drove with might also be able to help. Mine is very strict about having us sit in for at least two classroom sessions and like other have said there are no points, awards, prizes. If yours also does that they should have no problems with putting it in writing what they do. But it does seem to be a dealer by dealer thing because I once had a high RPM CEL at Watkins Glen and told them what I was doing and they didn't have an issue. But a set of plugs does cost alot less than a motor.
I am out of warranty now so this is not a concern of mine but one should always have it in the back of your mind that you could be SOL if something goes wrong at the track.
I am out of warranty now so this is not a concern of mine but one should always have it in the back of your mind that you could be SOL if something goes wrong at the track.
05-25-2007, 01:00 PM
#55
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Many dealerships do. And many keep track of who comes out so that they can deny warranty work.
Mitsubishi is notorious for this. They actually have a corporate program for entrapment of owners to get "warranty relief". It is one of the ways they bolster their bottom line.
We had a local Maryland Mazda dealer that went to car shows to look for mods and write down serial numbers.
They would show up in a modded TiT RX-8 and park along with everyone else and then start up conversations with any Mazda owners to find out what they had done to their cars.
They then sent another guy (incognito as a spectator) to gather data.
Mitsubishi is notorious for this. They actually have a corporate program for entrapment of owners to get "warranty relief". It is one of the ways they bolster their bottom line.
We had a local Maryland Mazda dealer that went to car shows to look for mods and write down serial numbers.
They would show up in a modded TiT RX-8 and park along with everyone else and then start up conversations with any Mazda owners to find out what they had done to their cars.
They then sent another guy (incognito as a spectator) to gather data.
Besides a dealer gets paid for doing maintenance whether it’s under warranty or not, it just means that either MNAO is paying them for the work/parts instead of the customer. I don’t think they have anything to gain by seeking out and logging the 5 RX-8 owners in their area that track the car.
Now if a guy shows up in R-comps that is tough to ignore. I suggest you write your MNAO representative and ask for help.
05-25-2007, 01:01 PM
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Many are missing the point. Having r-compound tires, aftermarket parts etc... does not mean you are abusing the car. Mazda needs to prove you are abusing it, you just can't take their word as fact as they can't take your word that your not. In the end it's the party that proves their point that will prevail. I asked our attorney here what he would do if he were to take this case. He said that he would make it so that fighting the claim in court or arbitration will make it more expensive for Mazda than just to cover the 5K in warranty work. Some examples he gave me he that he would subpoena all their warranty service records for said part that failed, request the part that failed to be submitted as evidence, meaning bring it to court so the jury or arbitrators can see the so called misuse and abuse. Even though Mazda does have attorney's on staff all that work adds to additional man hours on top of their staff attorneys. In the end they will probably just settle. The burden of proof is on Mazda. Now if they have firm evidence of racing as defined in the dictionary or evidence of misuse then they may stick to their guns. For example he said if it happened to me he would take the case because I have never participated in a timed event, only HPDE's, maintain detailed records of maintenance. If I were to auto cross, do time trials, or timed open wheel racing then he said he would not bother. So in the end just fight till you lose.
DevilDog, how much do you think it would cost him to fight this, attorny fees and all?
I don't know, it may be too close to risk the costs of court and losing. If Mazda didn't know certain details, I could see where it would be worth it to fight them, but not sure about this scenario.
05-25-2007, 01:17 PM
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Besides a dealer gets paid for doing maintenance whether it’s under warranty or not, it just means that either MNAO is paying them for the work/parts instead of the customer. I don’t think they have anything to gain by seeking out and logging the 5 RX-8 owners in their area that track the car.
05-25-2007, 01:30 PM
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I agree with you here, but our driver may have given Mazda too much ammunition to use against him. Where was the driving event located? What's the name of the driving school? If it was at Leguna Seca or something vs. like a no name skidpad or mini-road course it may motivate Mazda to fight it longer. I just think Mazda may be more willing to fight it in court and cite the "race tires + racetrack = abuse" card even if it is a driving school since you wouldn't really need race tires for a driving school. I guess you'll just have to compare attorny/court fees vs. local shop repair.
DevilDog, how much do you think it would cost him to fight this, attorny fees and all?
I don't know, it may be too close to risk the costs of court and losing. If Mazda didn't know certain details, I could see where it would be worth it to fight them, but not sure about this scenario.
DevilDog, how much do you think it would cost him to fight this, attorny fees and all?
I don't know, it may be too close to risk the costs of court and losing. If Mazda didn't know certain details, I could see where it would be worth it to fight them, but not sure about this scenario.
Off topic, I'll be in Orlando next weekend. Taking the wife to Sea World and Disney World. Its her first time.
05-25-2007, 01:30 PM
#60
Stew, why do you have a g-tech...you're not racing your car are you? If I were to interpret the manual word for word, I'd deny any warranty claim you had.
Point is, there needs to be some discretion on the part of the manufacturer ...corporate responsibility. You build, sell, market and profit from a sportscar, you must accept that some people will run their car hard on occasion.
If the OP does several trackdays a year, or showed that he doesn't maintain his car, etc. - than it's more black and white as you describe. But one track day shouldn't equal total absolution of corporate responsibility.
Point is, there needs to be some discretion on the part of the manufacturer ...corporate responsibility. You build, sell, market and profit from a sportscar, you must accept that some people will run their car hard on occasion.
If the OP does several trackdays a year, or showed that he doesn't maintain his car, etc. - than it's more black and white as you describe. But one track day shouldn't equal total absolution of corporate responsibility.
Pressing Mazda may get them to fold but in principal I have to agree with Ike and stew on this one. And when I blow my motor I will hopefully still do so.
05-25-2007, 01:34 PM
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I find it hard to believe that a dealer would go through that much trouble to deny a couple of people on warranty work (those RX-8s are a small small fraction of their customer base). And even then couldn't they just see the mods when the guy brings in his car for service?
Besides a dealer gets paid for doing maintenance whether it’s under warranty or not, it just means that either MNAO is paying them for the work/parts instead of the customer. I don’t think they have anything to gain by seeking out and logging the 5 RX-8 owners in their area that track the car.
Now if a guy shows up in R-comps that is tough to ignore. I suggest you write your MNAO representative and ask for help.
Besides a dealer gets paid for doing maintenance whether it’s under warranty or not, it just means that either MNAO is paying them for the work/parts instead of the customer. I don’t think they have anything to gain by seeking out and logging the 5 RX-8 owners in their area that track the car.
Now if a guy shows up in R-comps that is tough to ignore. I suggest you write your MNAO representative and ask for help.
05-25-2007, 02:11 PM
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I guess I'll weigh in here.
Bummer about your motor. If youre racing, youre out of luck. HPDE, motor should be replaced under warranty.
I respect your desire to remain truthful in life, but youve got to take out the R compounds before heading to the dealership. They give the wrong perception.
Dont go "warranty shopping" at different dealers, it gives the perception youre guilty of the problem. Youre going to have to do some serious leg work now to get the motor replaced.
Side note. I agree with people stating that if a manufacturer develops a sports car it should be able to the driven like one. I remember reading an article with the head engineer for the Mustang (Huy Tang, sp?), and he stated the rear end/tranny was being designed to handle at least 500 1/4 runs in testing. Why, they know Mustang owners are going to be using the car in this fashion.
Bummer about your motor. If youre racing, youre out of luck. HPDE, motor should be replaced under warranty.
I respect your desire to remain truthful in life, but youve got to take out the R compounds before heading to the dealership. They give the wrong perception.
Dont go "warranty shopping" at different dealers, it gives the perception youre guilty of the problem. Youre going to have to do some serious leg work now to get the motor replaced.
Side note. I agree with people stating that if a manufacturer develops a sports car it should be able to the driven like one. I remember reading an article with the head engineer for the Mustang (Huy Tang, sp?), and he stated the rear end/tranny was being designed to handle at least 500 1/4 runs in testing. Why, they know Mustang owners are going to be using the car in this fashion.
05-25-2007, 02:33 PM
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I guess I'll weigh in here.
Bummer about your motor. If youre racing, youre out of luck. HPDE, motor should be replaced under warranty.
I respect your desire to remain truthful in life, but youve got to take out the R compounds before heading to the dealership. They give the wrong perception.
Dont go "warranty shopping" at different dealers, it gives the perception youre guilty of the problem. Youre going to have to do some serious leg work now to get the motor replaced.
Side note. I agree with people stating that if a manufacturer develops a sports car it should be able to the driven like one. I remember reading an article with the head engineer for the Mustang (Huy Tang, sp?), and he stated the rear end/tranny was being designed to handle at least 500 1/4 runs in testing. Why, they know Mustang owners are going to be using the car in this fashion.
Bummer about your motor. If youre racing, youre out of luck. HPDE, motor should be replaced under warranty.
I respect your desire to remain truthful in life, but youve got to take out the R compounds before heading to the dealership. They give the wrong perception.
Dont go "warranty shopping" at different dealers, it gives the perception youre guilty of the problem. Youre going to have to do some serious leg work now to get the motor replaced.
Side note. I agree with people stating that if a manufacturer develops a sports car it should be able to the driven like one. I remember reading an article with the head engineer for the Mustang (Huy Tang, sp?), and he stated the rear end/tranny was being designed to handle at least 500 1/4 runs in testing. Why, they know Mustang owners are going to be using the car in this fashion.
Totally agree, if he pressures Mazda long enough I think and hope they'll fold. The same thing happened to the guy with the bad engine. In the end he got it fixed under warranty.
05-25-2007, 03:10 PM
#64
Bummed, but bring on OU!
File a suit for false advertising. You'll have to dig deep for an 8 ad, but most of them show some spirited, closed course driving.
But really, try calling MNAO. I'd say it's 50/50 between your service guy even talking to them, and just denying you out of hand. Mazda doesn't want a bad rep for denying warranty work for track days. A large percentage of Mazda owners buy the cars for tracking them...Mx-5...
But really, try calling MNAO. I'd say it's 50/50 between your service guy even talking to them, and just denying you out of hand. Mazda doesn't want a bad rep for denying warranty work for track days. A large percentage of Mazda owners buy the cars for tracking them...Mx-5...
05-25-2007, 03:33 PM
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05-25-2007, 03:50 PM
#66
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Once again, children, personal responsibility.
OK, let's peel the other onion - your engine SHOULDN'T have broken - if it was well maintained and you didn't anything stupid to it like over heat it, starve it of oil, run it down a straightaway for a full mile banging against the rev limiter, etc. you should have driven home just fine.
My guess is that based on the fact that you haven't commented on this, that you did something really dumb like:
- didn't check your fluids and have fresh coolant and oil in the engine, both at the desired completely-full levels
- Badly over-revved the engine by grabbing the wrong gear coming into a corner (yes, you can't drive the engine into over-rev with the throttle, but the gearbox can certainly pull it there if you grab second gear at 80 mph when you meant to downshift to 4th).
There's something here you're not saying. Why?
What's the nature of the failure. Is it seized? Just doesn't run? Does it crank? What shape is your oil level?
I think you screwed this pooch yourself somehow. A well-maintained RX-8 should deal with a track day just fine. Doesnt' mean that Mazda would warranty any damage you might do, but as I said, it should handle that fine as long as you don't over-rev the engine, really abuse it, or it wasn't properly maintained.
By the way folks, properly maintaining your engine is your OTHER responsibility!
Stew
OK, let's peel the other onion - your engine SHOULDN'T have broken - if it was well maintained and you didn't anything stupid to it like over heat it, starve it of oil, run it down a straightaway for a full mile banging against the rev limiter, etc. you should have driven home just fine.
My guess is that based on the fact that you haven't commented on this, that you did something really dumb like:
- didn't check your fluids and have fresh coolant and oil in the engine, both at the desired completely-full levels
- Badly over-revved the engine by grabbing the wrong gear coming into a corner (yes, you can't drive the engine into over-rev with the throttle, but the gearbox can certainly pull it there if you grab second gear at 80 mph when you meant to downshift to 4th).
There's something here you're not saying. Why?
What's the nature of the failure. Is it seized? Just doesn't run? Does it crank? What shape is your oil level?
I think you screwed this pooch yourself somehow. A well-maintained RX-8 should deal with a track day just fine. Doesnt' mean that Mazda would warranty any damage you might do, but as I said, it should handle that fine as long as you don't over-rev the engine, really abuse it, or it wasn't properly maintained.
By the way folks, properly maintaining your engine is your OTHER responsibility!
Stew
I usually stay away from threads like this cause I personally dont know the person having the misfortune nor do I know him now however I wanted to pick this oppertunity to correct a notion mntioned above.
Over-rev...What is this and what happens to your engine? Well basically just like Stew said you pick the incorrect gear (normally one lower than intended...i.e. 2nd instead of 3rd) and let the clutch out which forces the engine to run faster than the rev limiter normally permits...
To a piston engine: this is DEVISTATING. My understanding is that you will float (bend) the valves in some minor cases which still equates to a top end rebuild of the engine.
To a rotary engine (opinion based on forum knowledge): the transmission will fail before the engine will. In our case with the Rx8 the tranny is rated at no more than 10k rpms (I believe). Our engine, like it was said before, is tested at extreme rpms and I am in the opinion that not a single thing will happen to it if it is over reved. This is assuming all fluids are matintained properly. The only failure point are the seals and it would take a severely extended amount of time in extreme rpms to make them fail (assuming stock engine).
What does this mean...Assuming this guy maintained the car as he should have then the engine failure was due to other issues outside of the owners control.
I do agree that he should have take the car home first and followed the procedure you suggested. Its not dishonest...You are meerly stating you tried to turn it over in the morning and it would not start...All of which is the truth.
05-25-2007, 11:50 PM
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To clarify this was a highperformance driving school not "racing", not a "competition".
I have all the maintenance records, I got all of the recall work done. If I hadn't they would have called me on that instead. What the mechanic at the dealership told me is that the water pump failed causing the engine to overheat. I had noticed the thermostat was a little high but it was not in the red. I let it cool down left the track and on the way hme stopped by the dealer to see if they would change my thermostat. They said they didnt have time and when I tried to leave the car wouldnt start.
I had problems with it overheating before and it just needed a new thermostat. This time it was different.
I have all the maintenance records, I got all of the recall work done. If I hadn't they would have called me on that instead. What the mechanic at the dealership told me is that the water pump failed causing the engine to overheat. I had noticed the thermostat was a little high but it was not in the red. I let it cool down left the track and on the way hme stopped by the dealer to see if they would change my thermostat. They said they didnt have time and when I tried to leave the car wouldnt start.
I had problems with it overheating before and it just needed a new thermostat. This time it was different.
05-26-2007, 12:32 AM
#68
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that is bs! tell them you were racing, tell them you were just crusing! driving on the track doesn't mean anything! can they proof that the engine died cause you went to a track? I mean the things you do on a track, you can do it on a street too!
05-26-2007, 12:34 AM
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nyc, did you read the post this wasnt a race. I know enough about cars to know that if you dont know everything you are better off not touching anything. Following the required maintenance should be enough to drive the car on a track.
05-26-2007, 01:26 AM
#70
I know it wasnt a race, but my point is that, even when you're not racing, no stock car was really *designed* for track event. Stock cars usually designed with *street use* in mind. maybe a bit of *high performance* driving, but thats about it.
if you think following the required maintenance should be enough to drive the car on a track, you gotta be kidding me.
Manual saids 7500 per oil change, u're telling me thats enough for track event ?
There you go, you ALREADY KNEW that there is something wrong with the car *hint: overheating* and you choose to ignored it, continue your HPDE event, and you're blaming Mazda now ? good luck with ur warranty claim buddy
oh by the way, Mazda monitor this forum, just in case u dunno.
if you think following the required maintenance should be enough to drive the car on a track, you gotta be kidding me.
Manual saids 7500 per oil change, u're telling me thats enough for track event ?
There you go, you ALREADY KNEW that there is something wrong with the car *hint: overheating* and you choose to ignored it, continue your HPDE event, and you're blaming Mazda now ? good luck with ur warranty claim buddy
oh by the way, Mazda monitor this forum, just in case u dunno.
Last edited by nycgps; 05-26-2007 at 01:30 AM.
05-26-2007, 01:37 AM
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To clarify this was a highperformance driving school not "racing", not a "competition".
I have all the maintenance records, I got all of the recall work done. If I hadn't they would have called me on that instead. What the mechanic at the dealership told me is that the water pump failed causing the engine to overheat. I had noticed the thermostat was a little high but it was not in the red. I let it cool down left the track and on the way hme stopped by the dealer to see if they would change my thermostat. They said they didnt have time and when I tried to leave the car wouldnt start.
I had problems with it overheating before and it just needed a new thermostat. This time it was different.
I have all the maintenance records, I got all of the recall work done. If I hadn't they would have called me on that instead. What the mechanic at the dealership told me is that the water pump failed causing the engine to overheat. I had noticed the thermostat was a little high but it was not in the red. I let it cool down left the track and on the way hme stopped by the dealer to see if they would change my thermostat. They said they didnt have time and when I tried to leave the car wouldnt start.
I had problems with it overheating before and it just needed a new thermostat. This time it was different.
I've been advocating your warranty coverage, but you keep adding new details to make me think there's more to this story. First it was "my engine died on my way home from the track." Then: "It looked like my engine was going to blow up, so I went to the dealer and they said, yup!" <exaggeration.
05-26-2007, 02:54 AM
#72
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Racing and abuse is such a loose term. But I agree if you do a lot of track work it will have wear and tear.
HOWEVER
Putting your car threw laps of rolling starts for 15 min per session. 4 session a day.
And it breaks, it sounds pretty week for me to say there is nothing wrong in the car to start with. People with Mazda 3, Civic, Integra, Daihatsu, and Toyota Celica do those things regularly and do not have much problems. We have one break down and one crack rotor in the last 3 years of racing. The only car that busted his engine is a yellow Ferrari, which the company gladly repair it so it also repair their reputation of selling a non rev-able lemon.
Tell me you have not redline your car in the past?!?! 15min session only red line about 30 times. Hmmmm....
Yes my brakes are worn, clutch are worn and the tyres was done (a few sets actually) but I like it!
*************************************
I have also track another RX-8 with turbo, running so hot that my foot is hurting. The T gauge is on the right. But the compression ratio is still alright.
Renesis is not weak. I agree that it is not fool proof though. Just ask MM.
HOWEVER
Putting your car threw laps of rolling starts for 15 min per session. 4 session a day.
And it breaks, it sounds pretty week for me to say there is nothing wrong in the car to start with. People with Mazda 3, Civic, Integra, Daihatsu, and Toyota Celica do those things regularly and do not have much problems. We have one break down and one crack rotor in the last 3 years of racing. The only car that busted his engine is a yellow Ferrari, which the company gladly repair it so it also repair their reputation of selling a non rev-able lemon.
Tell me you have not redline your car in the past?!?! 15min session only red line about 30 times. Hmmmm....
Yes my brakes are worn, clutch are worn and the tyres was done (a few sets actually) but I like it!
*************************************
I have also track another RX-8 with turbo, running so hot that my foot is hurting. The T gauge is on the right. But the compression ratio is still alright.
Renesis is not weak. I agree that it is not fool proof though. Just ask MM.
Last edited by takahashi; 05-26-2007 at 02:57 AM.
05-26-2007, 07:43 AM
#73
Insanely Yellow
To clarify this was a highperformance driving school not "racing", not a "competition".
I have all the maintenance records, I got all of the recall work done. If I hadn't they would have called me on that instead. What the mechanic at the dealership told me is that the water pump failed causing the engine to overheat. I had noticed the thermostat was a little high but it was not in the red. I let it cool down left the track and on the way hme stopped by the dealer to see if they would change my thermostat. They said they didnt have time and when I tried to leave the car wouldnt start.
I had problems with it overheating before and it just needed a new thermostat. This time it was different.
I have all the maintenance records, I got all of the recall work done. If I hadn't they would have called me on that instead. What the mechanic at the dealership told me is that the water pump failed causing the engine to overheat. I had noticed the thermostat was a little high but it was not in the red. I let it cool down left the track and on the way hme stopped by the dealer to see if they would change my thermostat. They said they didnt have time and when I tried to leave the car wouldnt start.
I had problems with it overheating before and it just needed a new thermostat. This time it was different.
You ignored a warning signal, and you got bit. You should have immediately exited the track and shut the car off to figure this out.
Sorry dude, but you're outta luck here.
05-26-2007, 09:28 AM
#74
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I want to know what temperature you get when the temperature gauge is wipe to the right, say just below the high mark?
I dunno. I never been there in my car and I have a Defi gauge to read the exact temp. It never go over 115 degree C (hoho) but the T gauge is still ok. MazdaSpeed warning light is set at 120 degree C btw. So I think it is over 120 degree C coolant temp.
I dunno. I never been there in my car and I have a Defi gauge to read the exact temp. It never go over 115 degree C (hoho) but the T gauge is still ok. MazdaSpeed warning light is set at 120 degree C btw. So I think it is over 120 degree C coolant temp.
05-26-2007, 01:21 PM
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The guage was passed the half way mark but not maxed if that doesnt mean it is hot than I was being more catious than needed, right? I did bring it in off the track and let it cool down for almost two hours before I took it to the dealership.