Test drove the R3
07-22-2009, 01:47 PM
#76
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That's kind of the whole point: the car has only improved, why should the price be lower? Did they remove the carbon fiber drive shaft? No. Did they remove the forged aluminum suspension pieces? No. It would be different if they decontented the hell out of it like Ford always used to do, and continue to charge the same price, but they have not. Like I said, the other cars I considered were considerably more expensive. This price is reasonable for this car.
When *all* of the good enthusiast magazines (whose drivers have driven far more cars than you list, and performed very detailed testing) agree that the RX-8 is one of the best steering and handling cars, there's good reason to believe it's true. Not to mention that my favorite race driver, Randy Pobst says pretty much the same thing. However, having said that, different people have different ideas of what "good hanlding" means. As I stated, I prefer light and simple. I'll take the lower center of gravity, and mid-engine configuration of the RX-8 over the 370Z (besides, I personally think the RX-8 is one of the best looking cars, inside and out, ever put on earth). But, like I said before, for most people, the 370Z is probably the better sports car, but it's also more expensive.
I didn't even bother to test drive the other cars because I knew which car I was passionate about. I tried very hard to feel that way about the 370Z, especially after reading how fast the damn thing is! But I just wasn't feeling it. All the others on my list (Evo, STI, Mustang GT, 370Z, BMW 135i) would have been more expensive (MUCH more for some of them), and didn't offer what I was looking for in most cases (true sports car ideals of light weight, low center of gravity, excellent weight distribution, and RWD). The only other car that isn't a true exotic and that isn't a niche vehicle that I would say is even in the RX-8's class is the Porsche Cayman, and that was out of my price range by a great deal.
As far as I'm concerned, this car is a raging bargain.
When *all* of the good enthusiast magazines (whose drivers have driven far more cars than you list, and performed very detailed testing) agree that the RX-8 is one of the best steering and handling cars, there's good reason to believe it's true. Not to mention that my favorite race driver, Randy Pobst says pretty much the same thing. However, having said that, different people have different ideas of what "good hanlding" means. As I stated, I prefer light and simple. I'll take the lower center of gravity, and mid-engine configuration of the RX-8 over the 370Z (besides, I personally think the RX-8 is one of the best looking cars, inside and out, ever put on earth). But, like I said before, for most people, the 370Z is probably the better sports car, but it's also more expensive.
I didn't even bother to test drive the other cars because I knew which car I was passionate about. I tried very hard to feel that way about the 370Z, especially after reading how fast the damn thing is! But I just wasn't feeling it. All the others on my list (Evo, STI, Mustang GT, 370Z, BMW 135i) would have been more expensive (MUCH more for some of them), and didn't offer what I was looking for in most cases (true sports car ideals of light weight, low center of gravity, excellent weight distribution, and RWD). The only other car that isn't a true exotic and that isn't a niche vehicle that I would say is even in the RX-8's class is the Porsche Cayman, and that was out of my price range by a great deal.
As far as I'm concerned, this car is a raging bargain.
You got an opinion. Alright. But how can you so sure without even test driving other cars before shutting them out when you need to be "passionate" about - such an subjective thing that involves "feel" or "soul" that cannot be verified with objective data (in this case, sports car performance) - which Rx8 loses comparing to most of its competitor?
For me its simple. Rx8 is the CHEAPEST among the RWD, NA, high-rev, reasonable-reliability sports car class and it got a ROTARY engine. I want to try a rotary-powered car that is DDable.
Just my 2cp.
07-22-2009, 02:35 PM
#77
Given the true selling cost of these cars are in the 22-27K range, why are they sticking the car with close to a 30K sticker? At the end of the day, they have to use rebates and discounts to get people to buy the car. Rather than selling it at a lower price to begin with, they chose to play the game of list it high and sell it low. It does nothing but hurt the value of the vehicle in the used car market (see people who has trouble selling the cars or people who took a blood bath after 3 years). Mazda discounts their car quite a bit, see the $1K-$3K rebate they are offering on their website. If you can justify spending 30K for the vehicle, more power to you. I am just saying from my point of view, the car should be more around the $20-25K range.
If you list it at 28 and they walk at 27 they feel ripped off and probably won't even buy it.
Am I an RX-8 fanboy? No, am I a fan - Yes.
Used car value - isn't that an oxymoron. I sold an 07 RX-8 GT with 15k miles for 14 grand. Do I care about the used car value, not really I accepted it was a car and it was going to be bad no matter what.
Do I wish the car was cheaper - no not really because then everyone would own one and it would take away a certain appeal.
I'm pretty sure Mazda has an entire trained and qualified team to determine the price of the vehicle based upon sales figures and market conditions as well as cost to manufacture otherwise we would not see an RX-8 on the lots.
07-22-2009, 04:21 PM
#78
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I am sorry, but how are their pricing strategy working out? do you see toyota, honda, bmw and other brands running big incentives? think about who offer big incentives, its usually the big 3, nissan, mazda, kia, hyundais, basically the lower tier company. they have as much success as aig doing sub prime lending.
07-22-2009, 04:41 PM
#79
I am sorry, but how are their pricing strategy working out? do you see toyota, honda, bmw and other brands running big incentives? think about who offer big incentives, its usually the big 3, nissan, mazda, kia, hyundais, basically the lower tier company. they have as much success as aig doing sub prime lending.
Hyundai and Kia are doing VERY VERY well.
07-22-2009, 05:05 PM
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I bought an R3 after test driving the 350Z, 135i and Mustang GT. There were a number of areas where the R3 fell short of one or another (or all) of the other cars. So, I'm not going to argue 0-60 times or even which car would get round a track fastest. I accepted concessions in some areas because I preferred the total package (the combination of appearance, convenience, performance, handling, comfort, price and uniqueness) over the other cars I tested. I'm happy with my choice.
Would I like the R3 to have more HP and higher torque? Of course. But if those two things had been the only two items in my car-buying decision matrix, I could have saved myself the time and trouble of doing test drives and just made my buying selection based on magazine articles.
I have nothing against any of the other contenders. I probably would have been happy with any one of them as my daily driver. But I'm glad I picked the R3. After a year and more than 30,000 kms, the R3's shortcomings have proven to be irrelevant for my purposes and its strongpoints have put a smile on my face more times than I can count.
Would I like the R3 to have more HP and higher torque? Of course. But if those two things had been the only two items in my car-buying decision matrix, I could have saved myself the time and trouble of doing test drives and just made my buying selection based on magazine articles.
I have nothing against any of the other contenders. I probably would have been happy with any one of them as my daily driver. But I'm glad I picked the R3. After a year and more than 30,000 kms, the R3's shortcomings have proven to be irrelevant for my purposes and its strongpoints have put a smile on my face more times than I can count.
07-22-2009, 05:13 PM
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07-22-2009, 05:27 PM
#82
I don't think this is an accurate statement. There are a lot of cars that are cheap that don't sell well. Hyundai sells well because of its value. For what you spend you get a lot in return. They are now building a quality car backed by a strong warranty with good looks for a fair price. That is why they are doing well.
07-22-2009, 05:36 PM
#83
I bought an R3 after test driving the 350Z, 135i and Mustang GT. There were a number of areas where the R3 fell short of one or another (or all) of the other cars. So, I'm not going to argue 0-60 times or even which car would get round a track fastest. I accepted concessions in some areas because I preferred the total package (the combination of appearance, convenience, performance, handling, comfort, price and uniqueness) over the other cars I tested. I'm happy with my choice.
Would I like the R3 to have more HP and higher torque? Of course. But if those two things had been the only two items in my car-buying decision matrix, I could have saved myself the time and trouble of doing test drives and just made my buying selection based on magazine articles.
I have nothing against any of the other contenders. I probably would have been happy with any one of them as my daily driver. But I'm glad I picked the R3. After a year and more than 30,000 kms, the R3's shortcomings have proven to be irrelevant for my purposes and its strongpoints have put a smile on my face more times than I can count.
Would I like the R3 to have more HP and higher torque? Of course. But if those two things had been the only two items in my car-buying decision matrix, I could have saved myself the time and trouble of doing test drives and just made my buying selection based on magazine articles.
I have nothing against any of the other contenders. I probably would have been happy with any one of them as my daily driver. But I'm glad I picked the R3. After a year and more than 30,000 kms, the R3's shortcomings have proven to be irrelevant for my purposes and its strongpoints have put a smile on my face more times than I can count.
07-22-2009, 06:04 PM
#84
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I don't think this is an accurate statement. There are a lot of cars that are cheap that don't sell well. Hyundai sells well because of its value. For what you spend you get a lot in return. They are now building a quality car backed by a strong warranty with good looks for a fair price. That is why they are doing well.
When I said cheap, I mean as in cheaper than their direct competitors. U
07-22-2009, 06:23 PM
#85
I am sorry, but how are their pricing strategy working out? do you see toyota, honda, bmw and other brands running big incentives? think about who offer big incentives, its usually the big 3, nissan, mazda, kia, hyundais, basically the lower tier company. they have as much success as aig doing sub prime lending.
Saw this past winter lots of advertising for '08 Nismo 350Zs for almost $10,000 off MSRP. That's just off the top; there may be more if you're a serious enough buyer.
And how about the deal Subaru had going on the leftover '08 STIs--- was somewhere around $9000 off MSRP along with 0% for 63 months. You just have to find the right dealer to give it to you.
Porsche's having their sales woes too. I've heard Turbos that sticker around $130K getting $25K off. Though the percentage off is nowhere near the same as getting $9K off on a $31K car, compare it to their discounts of the past.
In a previous post you wrote that scoring a brand new R3 for $25K isn't good enough. Where else are you going to find a car of the 8's caliber (chassis rigidity equaling the best in the world, forged aluminum suspension arms, turbine-smooth engine at all RPMs, etc.)?
07-22-2009, 08:51 PM
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Let me see, Honda made virtually the same car since 2000, don't you think you need to give them a reason to buy something newer? Hell, the S2200 was more of a change than the 09 RX-8.
The 350z became 370z, so you want people to pay more for a Nismo 350z than a 370z, something that is faster? Also the Nismo was overpriced, remember I said the R3 isn't worth 5K more than a base?
39K for an STI, geez, wonder why they need incentives (see R3 overpriced...)
Porsche' discounts were on left overs, you don't think they would go back and change their production to fit the current demand? Also more expensive cars have a much higher margin, it's just the way it is.
As for the R3 for 25K, how do you want to compare it? Track performance, the GTI is probably just as fast. Civic Si might be close too. They might not FEEL great at speed, but they are not going to get embarrassed when it comes time to compare lap times. You can have all the parts you mentioned, but it means nothing when you cant be fast on the track. It's like seeing a modded out car at the car shows, what good is it if it doesnt drive on track?
The 350z became 370z, so you want people to pay more for a Nismo 350z than a 370z, something that is faster? Also the Nismo was overpriced, remember I said the R3 isn't worth 5K more than a base?
39K for an STI, geez, wonder why they need incentives (see R3 overpriced...)
Porsche' discounts were on left overs, you don't think they would go back and change their production to fit the current demand? Also more expensive cars have a much higher margin, it's just the way it is.
As for the R3 for 25K, how do you want to compare it? Track performance, the GTI is probably just as fast. Civic Si might be close too. They might not FEEL great at speed, but they are not going to get embarrassed when it comes time to compare lap times. You can have all the parts you mentioned, but it means nothing when you cant be fast on the track. It's like seeing a modded out car at the car shows, what good is it if it doesnt drive on track?
07-23-2009, 12:22 PM
#87
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If I ever needed to demonstrate what insecure fanboism is to someone, I'll just direct them to this thread.
Thanks for presentation materials folks!
OT : If people are so miopic about their cars, it's no wonder why our government is the most devisive among modern democracies.
Time to be more diverse and acceptive, people.
Thanks for presentation materials folks!
OT : If people are so miopic about their cars, it's no wonder why our government is the most devisive among modern democracies.
Time to be more diverse and acceptive, people.
07-23-2009, 07:00 PM
#88
If I ever needed to demonstrate what insecure fanboism is to someone, I'll just direct them to this thread.
Thanks for presentation materials folks!
OT : If people are so miopic about their cars, it's no wonder why our government is the most devisive among modern democracies.
Time to be more diverse and acceptive, people.
Thanks for presentation materials folks!
OT : If people are so miopic about their cars, it's no wonder why our government is the most devisive among modern democracies.
Time to be more diverse and acceptive, people.
07-23-2009, 07:19 PM
#89
I am sorry, but how are their pricing strategy working out? do you see toyota, honda, bmw and other brands running big incentives? think about who offer big incentives, its usually the big 3, nissan, mazda, kia, hyundais, basically the lower tier company. they have as much success as aig doing sub prime lending.
wait.. 1 2 3 4
this guy knows alot about cars...NOT!
Toyota is #1 by the way of sales.
07-23-2009, 07:54 PM
#90
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Ford gave back controlling interest to Mazda earlier this year, way to get your head out of the sand.
Big 3=The three domestic companies, not in terms of sales.
Nice try, but no.
Big 3=The three domestic companies, not in terms of sales.
Nice try, but no.
07-23-2009, 09:39 PM
#91
Secondly, I doubt the 8 will be around through the '13 MY (equaling S2K's tenure).
The 350z became 370z, so you want people to pay more for a Nismo 350z than a 370z, something that is faster? Also the Nismo was overpriced, remember I said the R3 isn't worth 5K more than a base?
39K for an STI, geez, wonder why they need incentives (see R3 overpriced...)
Porsche' discounts were on left overs, you don't think they would go back and change their production to fit the current demand? Also more expensive cars have a much higher margin, it's just the way it is.
As for the R3 for 25K, how do you want to compare it? Track performance, the GTI is probably just as fast. Civic Si might be close too. They might not FEEL great at speed, but they are not going to get embarrassed when it comes time to compare lap times. You can have all the parts you mentioned, but it means nothing when you cant be fast on the track. It's like seeing a modded out car at the car shows, what good is it if it doesnt drive on track?
. You know it --- ask any VW owner. Civics are shitboxes, too; Si equipped with moderately powered 4 banger doesn't change that. Neither is in the 8's class as far as engineering or semi-exotic materials used.If you've got tens of thousands burning holes in your pockets (as you've stated in previous threads about the cars you've owned and sold), why bitch about a $32K marvel and how overpriced it is? I know, because you realize the driving experience is tough to equal. So why not buy one already??
07-23-2009, 10:10 PM
#92
AP2 got revised bumpers, as did '09 RX-8. AP2= same hp as AP1.
Secondly, I doubt the 8 will be around through the '13 MY (equaling S2K's tenure).
You've got an answer for everything. Actually, it's more like griping.
For some reason I thought MSRP was between $34 and $36K-ish.
In 2 months a '09 R3 is leftover. Thing is, it's still new (as long as there aren't miles on it).
GTIs are european econo crap --- talk about overpriced . You know it --- ask any VW owner. Civics are shitboxes, too; Si equipped with moderately powered 4 banger doesn't change that. Neither is in the 8's class as far as engineering or semi-exotic materials used.
If you've got tens of thousands burning holes in your pockets (as you've stated in previous threads about the cars you've owned and sold), why bitch about a $32K marvel and how overpriced it is? I know, because you realize the driving experience is tough to equal. So why not buy one already??
Secondly, I doubt the 8 will be around through the '13 MY (equaling S2K's tenure).
You've got an answer for everything. Actually, it's more like griping.
For some reason I thought MSRP was between $34 and $36K-ish.
In 2 months a '09 R3 is leftover. Thing is, it's still new (as long as there aren't miles on it).
GTIs are european econo crap --- talk about overpriced
. You know it --- ask any VW owner. Civics are shitboxes, too; Si equipped with moderately powered 4 banger doesn't change that. Neither is in the 8's class as far as engineering or semi-exotic materials used.If you've got tens of thousands burning holes in your pockets (as you've stated in previous threads about the cars you've owned and sold), why bitch about a $32K marvel and how overpriced it is? I know, because you realize the driving experience is tough to equal. So why not buy one already??
07-23-2009, 11:12 PM
#93
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Funny how some people can't take criticism. I can afford 32K, but it's not worth it to me. If you are willing to pay for that, go right ahead as it is your money. On the other hand, I can save 16K and get myself a new daily driver.
Why didn't I get a Civic or GTI? Because I don't like FWD and I don't like convertibles since I actually track my car. If you want to prove yourself, go out and see what you can do.
I decided not to buy a new 370z because I am sick of tracking cars that are brand new and cost way too much to buy and fix. I am better off buying a little 15-20K Mazda and run it for fun, saves me a little $ and still provide some decent bang for the buck.
Why didn't I get a Civic or GTI? Because I don't like FWD and I don't like convertibles since I actually track my car. If you want to prove yourself, go out and see what you can do.
I decided not to buy a new 370z because I am sick of tracking cars that are brand new and cost way too much to buy and fix. I am better off buying a little 15-20K Mazda and run it for fun, saves me a little $ and still provide some decent bang for the buck.
07-24-2009, 12:13 AM
#94
It's not worth it to you at $32K? You said before you wouldn't pay $25K for one. Fast forward to a post of yours in a few months and you'll say "22K?! for a crappy R3! Why, I'd much rather drive a Altima for that money."
Btw, the 8 is not a car without faults, but the total package it offers for the money easily exceeds whatever its competition does. Now what's that about some people not able to take criticism?
Btw, the 8 is not a car without faults, but the total package it offers for the money easily exceeds whatever its competition does. Now what's that about some people not able to take criticism?
07-24-2009, 07:52 AM
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It's not worth it to me at 32K. Even at 25K, I wouldn't even bother (that's me talking). On the other hand, 23K sounds better simply because I like driving new cars. (As a businessman, I think they should price it around 25K) As I said many times before, this is not a knock on the car. I was simply talking about the price. The car simply doesn't perform well against cars in the 30K price range, so what makes you want to spend the extra money?
07-24-2009, 08:07 AM
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As for the R3 for 25K, how do you want to compare it? Track performance, the GTI is probably just as fast. Civic Si might be close too. They might not FEEL great at speed, but they are not going to get embarrassed when it comes time to compare lap times. You can have all the parts you mentioned, but it means nothing when you cant be fast on the track. It's like seeing a modded out car at the car shows, what good is it if it doesnt drive on track?
But you're joking, right?
I've been on record of saying RX-8 is not a great track car when looking for competitive lap times, many times, but no way a GTI and Civic Si can compete with RX-8, given the cars are stock.
Main reason would be FWD, but what most people are forgetting, is that braking is one of the most important ingredient on the track. RX-8 has the most powerful and fade free brakes that comes as standard equipment for cars under 50K, albeit the brake pedal feel isn't as great as some others.
I know you're trying to say that for the amount of money Mazda charges for the RX-8, it isn't even faster than most of the sports compacts out there, while it is true when it comes to drag or "street" race, but on a track, you simply cannot compare a sports car to a fwd econoboxes.
Here are the times some of the cars mentioned in this thread for the Car and Driver Lightning Laps.
3:12.5 - 2006 Nissan 350Z Track
3:13.3 - 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution MR
3:13.5 - 2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution MR
3:15.0 - 2008 Honda S2000 CR
3:19.0 - 2006 Mazda RX-8
3:21.8 - 2008 Volkswagen R32
3:24.8 - 2008 Honda Civic Mugen Si
3:25.1 - 2006 Volkswagen GTI
3:26.5 - 2006 Honda Civic Si
So please, never mention GTI and Civic with the RX-8 in the same sentence when talking about track times.
As to this being a RX-8 board, so that's why people are defensive, last time I checked, this is a information board, I try my hardest to provide information, whether if it's positive or negative regarding the vehicle I own.
07-24-2009, 08:24 AM
#97
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I am sorry, but how are their pricing strategy working out? do you see toyota, honda, bmw and other brands running big incentives? think about who offer big incentives, its usually the big 3, nissan, mazda, kia, hyundais, basically the lower tier company. they have as much success as aig doing sub prime lending.
Oh well.
07-24-2009, 08:39 AM
#98
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What we provide here is our 2 cents and all the flaws that come with that.
07-24-2009, 09:02 AM
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Not sure how I missed this part, but I'd like to comment on this.
But you're joking, right?
I've been on record of saying RX-8 is not a great track car when looking for competitive lap times, many times, but no way a GTI and Civic Si can compete with RX-8, given the cars are stock.
Main reason would be FWD, but what most people are forgetting, is that braking is one of the most important ingredient on the track. RX-8 has the most powerful and fade free brakes that comes as standard equipment for cars under 50K, albeit the brake pedal feel isn't as great as some others.
I know you're trying to say that for the amount of money Mazda charges for the RX-8, it isn't even faster than most of the sports compacts out there, while it is true when it comes to drag or "street" race, but on a track, you simply cannot compare a sports car to a fwd econoboxes.
Here are the times some of the cars mentioned in this thread for the Car and Driver Lightning Laps.
3:12.5 - 2006 Nissan 350Z Track
3:13.3 - 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution MR
3:13.5 - 2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution MR
3:15.0 - 2008 Honda S2000 CR
3:19.0 - 2006 Mazda RX-8
3:21.8 - 2008 Volkswagen R32
3:24.8 - 2008 Honda Civic Mugen Si
3:25.1 - 2006 Volkswagen GTI
3:26.5 - 2006 Honda Civic Si
So please, never mention GTI and Civic with the RX-8 in the same sentence when talking about track times.
As to this being a RX-8 board, so that's why people are defensive, last time I checked, this is a information board, I try my hardest to provide information, whether if it's positive or negative regarding the vehicle I own.
But you're joking, right?
I've been on record of saying RX-8 is not a great track car when looking for competitive lap times, many times, but no way a GTI and Civic Si can compete with RX-8, given the cars are stock.
Main reason would be FWD, but what most people are forgetting, is that braking is one of the most important ingredient on the track. RX-8 has the most powerful and fade free brakes that comes as standard equipment for cars under 50K, albeit the brake pedal feel isn't as great as some others.
I know you're trying to say that for the amount of money Mazda charges for the RX-8, it isn't even faster than most of the sports compacts out there, while it is true when it comes to drag or "street" race, but on a track, you simply cannot compare a sports car to a fwd econoboxes.
Here are the times some of the cars mentioned in this thread for the Car and Driver Lightning Laps.
3:12.5 - 2006 Nissan 350Z Track
3:13.3 - 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution MR
3:13.5 - 2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution MR
3:15.0 - 2008 Honda S2000 CR
3:19.0 - 2006 Mazda RX-8
3:21.8 - 2008 Volkswagen R32
3:24.8 - 2008 Honda Civic Mugen Si
3:25.1 - 2006 Volkswagen GTI
3:26.5 - 2006 Honda Civic Si
So please, never mention GTI and Civic with the RX-8 in the same sentence when talking about track times.
As to this being a RX-8 board, so that's why people are defensive, last time I checked, this is a information board, I try my hardest to provide information, whether if it's positive or negative regarding the vehicle I own.
So based on your standards, a on a track, you simply cannot compare a true sports car to a no-torque 4-door 1.3L sports coupe.
I love my car...but I do realize the performance gap and its effect on general population, and to them the Rx8 is not competitive against cars in the same price range right now.
Its more like a RSX-S with much better overall package (better brakes, RWD, suspension design, etc) with less tuning potential (compares to Hondata+I/H/E=13second car).
Oh BTW, a FWD econoboxes Cobalt SS turbocharged did the same lap in 3:13:0....not all FWD econoboxes are shitty at the track :P
07-24-2009, 10:28 AM
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I never add negative things to my post just so I don't appear to be a fan-boi.
Every positive and negative things I've ever said about the vehicle are either facts, or my honest opinions regarding the 8, I don't try to go out of my way to saying something positive or negative.