So I Almost Traded My 8 for a Miata, But...
11-04-2014, 07:34 PM
#1
Water Foul
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So I Almost Traded My 8 for a Miata, But...
...then I drove a Miata on the track. Hmmm...
The thinking was along these lines. What am I doing tearing up a car that is still worth some $20K on the track when I could pay cash for a cheap Miata, install a turbo kit, and have the same performance for a whole lot less money and worry? I could sell my 8 and shed a car payment while it is still in great shape. I could also return it to stock and get some cash out of the aftermarket parts I have put into it and put that money into building out the Miata. Sounds smart, right?
Well, through some unexpected serendipity, I ran into another driver who had exactly what I was planning to build last Saturday. He had bought an '04 Spec Miata with a fresh drive train and installed a FM turbo kit, then had it corner balanced and aligned. The head scratching began when I consistently beat him by 0.9 seconds lap after lap after lap. He's a good driver, so that wasn't the difference.
In a typical session, we would run neck and neck on the straights. Neither of us could pull away. But I could carry more speed into, through, and out of the corners than he could.
We took turns driving each others cars. The best way to describe the difference is the Miata was like riding a wooden roller coaster, and the RX-8 was like riding a steel one. The Miata felt fast and was very visceral. At first, I was sure I was turning in great lap times. But the equipment doesn't lie, and I was a full second slower in his car than I was in mine. His experience was much the same. He was about half a second faster in my car.
My 8 doesn't feel fast. Everything is gradual and smooth. It is like putting on your favorite jeans. The car is comfortable to drive, and you forget about it after a few minutes. It just goes where you want it to with no fuss and without beating you up. I thought Miatas were supposed to give the same driving experience, or very close to it. What gives?
Maybe a different suspension setup in the Miata would improve it. But, Spec cars are set up the way they are for a reason. They are set up to extract every last ounce of performance possible. Sometimes fast isn't supposed to feel fast. I dunno.
Your thoughts?
The thinking was along these lines. What am I doing tearing up a car that is still worth some $20K on the track when I could pay cash for a cheap Miata, install a turbo kit, and have the same performance for a whole lot less money and worry? I could sell my 8 and shed a car payment while it is still in great shape. I could also return it to stock and get some cash out of the aftermarket parts I have put into it and put that money into building out the Miata. Sounds smart, right?
Well, through some unexpected serendipity, I ran into another driver who had exactly what I was planning to build last Saturday. He had bought an '04 Spec Miata with a fresh drive train and installed a FM turbo kit, then had it corner balanced and aligned. The head scratching began when I consistently beat him by 0.9 seconds lap after lap after lap. He's a good driver, so that wasn't the difference.
In a typical session, we would run neck and neck on the straights. Neither of us could pull away. But I could carry more speed into, through, and out of the corners than he could.
We took turns driving each others cars. The best way to describe the difference is the Miata was like riding a wooden roller coaster, and the RX-8 was like riding a steel one. The Miata felt fast and was very visceral. At first, I was sure I was turning in great lap times. But the equipment doesn't lie, and I was a full second slower in his car than I was in mine. His experience was much the same. He was about half a second faster in my car.
My 8 doesn't feel fast. Everything is gradual and smooth. It is like putting on your favorite jeans. The car is comfortable to drive, and you forget about it after a few minutes. It just goes where you want it to with no fuss and without beating you up. I thought Miatas were supposed to give the same driving experience, or very close to it. What gives?
Maybe a different suspension setup in the Miata would improve it. But, Spec cars are set up the way they are for a reason. They are set up to extract every last ounce of performance possible. Sometimes fast isn't supposed to feel fast. I dunno.
Your thoughts?
11-04-2014, 07:39 PM
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I never had my 8 on the track for a direct comparison, but I followed basically that same line. My 8 is gone and I have a turboed Miata that I have had on the track repeatedly
Offhand, I'd say something is wrong with his Miata, or he just doesn't have the boost up. My MSM is hands down faster than my 8 ever was. Not even a close question. Even on a road drive with some other members here last summer, I was pulling away easily on a supercharged 8 on straighter sections of road.
I agree with the 8 feeling more refined and more sublimely connected, and the Miata being more raw. But on the stock MSM turbo at ~202whp, my MSM was easily walking the two 8's I met on track, and with the FM2 (GT2560) on it now, it is significantly faster. Several of the older V8 muscle cars couldn't pull on my in the straights at Watkin's Glen a month or so ago (the newer mustangs and vettes still could drive away easily).
So if everything is "fine" on his Miata, he just hasn't turned up the boost at all.
Offhand, I'd say something is wrong with his Miata, or he just doesn't have the boost up. My MSM is hands down faster than my 8 ever was. Not even a close question. Even on a road drive with some other members here last summer, I was pulling away easily on a supercharged 8 on straighter sections of road.
I agree with the 8 feeling more refined and more sublimely connected, and the Miata being more raw. But on the stock MSM turbo at ~202whp, my MSM was easily walking the two 8's I met on track, and with the FM2 (GT2560) on it now, it is significantly faster. Several of the older V8 muscle cars couldn't pull on my in the straights at Watkin's Glen a month or so ago (the newer mustangs and vettes still could drive away easily).
So if everything is "fine" on his Miata, he just hasn't turned up the boost at all.
11-04-2014, 07:55 PM
#3
Water Foul
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He said he had the boost at 8psi, which is pretty low, but at the recommended level for his setup according to FM, assuming he had the Voodoo I kit.
I guess for further context, it is important to note that I often turn in better times than a lot of faster cars on tighter tracks such as the one we were on last weekend. They pull away on the straights, but I make up enough time in the corners to best them. I managed to beat a Mustang GT500 and a Camaro SS, for example. Actually, I was third fastest out of 12 cars, behind a Lotus Evora and a Lotus Exige.
Still, a tighter track should be the perfect playground for a Miata such as his.
I guess for further context, it is important to note that I often turn in better times than a lot of faster cars on tighter tracks such as the one we were on last weekend. They pull away on the straights, but I make up enough time in the corners to best them. I managed to beat a Mustang GT500 and a Camaro SS, for example. Actually, I was third fastest out of 12 cars, behind a Lotus Evora and a Lotus Exige.
Still, a tighter track should be the perfect playground for a Miata such as his.
Last edited by Steve Dallas; 11-04-2014 at 08:05 PM.
11-04-2014, 08:07 PM
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If he was at 8psi on the Voodoo I, something is wrong, like he isn't tuned or his cat is clogging (apparently fairly common) or his engine is down on compression (SM engines are often run to the ragged edge)
The Voodoo 1 should be at ~170whp, and at that with my MSM (~2490lbs vs an SM at...2300?) I could pull noticeably harder than my 8 (had them both at that time), though eventually the 8 could outrun it from sheer top end aero. It would be closer than where I am now, but the Miata should still be noticeably stronger out of the hole.
I mean, maybe that is correct, re-reading your first post, in that you were carrying more speed in the 8 out of the corners, and his significantly better torque to weight just evened you up as the aero loaded him up too much to keep pulling.
If the main issue you have is that his Miata wasn't fast enough, then set your mind at rest, that isn't anywhere near what you can get out of them yet. At 8psi on a full FM2 there is no contest at all.
Wait, what year of Miata? If he has the 1.6L, that would explain it
My comments are for the 1.8L. Big difference in resulting power.
The Voodoo 1 should be at ~170whp, and at that with my MSM (~2490lbs vs an SM at...2300?) I could pull noticeably harder than my 8 (had them both at that time), though eventually the 8 could outrun it from sheer top end aero. It would be closer than where I am now, but the Miata should still be noticeably stronger out of the hole.
I mean, maybe that is correct, re-reading your first post, in that you were carrying more speed in the 8 out of the corners, and his significantly better torque to weight just evened you up as the aero loaded him up too much to keep pulling.
If the main issue you have is that his Miata wasn't fast enough, then set your mind at rest, that isn't anywhere near what you can get out of them yet. At 8psi on a full FM2 there is no contest at all.
Wait, what year of Miata? If he has the 1.6L, that would explain it
My comments are for the 1.8L. Big difference in resulting power.
11-04-2014, 08:19 PM
#5
Water Foul
Thread Starter
He did not have a cat. There certainly could have been something wrong with his tune, although he said he went through the FM process. He said he bought the car from a SM racer who had a sob story about having just put a fresh engine, clutch, and transmission in it before having to sell it due to $$ problems. Who knows how true that is.
His suspension was tight. I did not feel or hear any evidence of bad bushings or worn shocks. His tires were also better than mine.
You are probably right about how the straights went. I came out of the corners much faster and was well into my power band while having aero on my side. He came out slower and had to pull against aero to make up for it. That explains some of it. I run this track at the top of 3rd and the upper middle of 4th, so I am always above 5K on the tach.
So, let's focus on those corners. Why was my 8 so much more capable than his Miata? Is it the more advanced suspension design (ML rear), the LSD, the individual components? Or am I just more fearless or willing to have more confidence in the car with which I am most familiar? All of the above?
His suspension was tight. I did not feel or hear any evidence of bad bushings or worn shocks. His tires were also better than mine.
You are probably right about how the straights went. I came out of the corners much faster and was well into my power band while having aero on my side. He came out slower and had to pull against aero to make up for it. That explains some of it. I run this track at the top of 3rd and the upper middle of 4th, so I am always above 5K on the tach.
So, let's focus on those corners. Why was my 8 so much more capable than his Miata? Is it the more advanced suspension design (ML rear), the LSD, the individual components? Or am I just more fearless or willing to have more confidence in the car with which I am most familiar? All of the above?
Last edited by Steve Dallas; 11-05-2014 at 08:10 PM.
11-04-2014, 08:40 PM
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Hmm, yeah, then I'd bet the tune is just not really solid yet. If he is on the Voodoo Box for fueling, then that is even more likely. 8psi on what is probably a 2560 should be performing better than that on the straights. However your 3rd and 4th gears means his 4th and 5th (if a 5 speed), or his 5th and 6th (if a 6 speed). If he doesn't have a hard top, that alone is going to cripple him. Even at ~10psi on a 2560 without a hard top I can feel the massive wall of air building in 5th and stall out most acceleration in 6th. Huge difference with an added hard top.
For the turns, yes, some of the gain is going to be the superior suspension design, though part of it may be that with the added power, the Miata gets a bit more nervous and less confidence inspiring, so the 'fearless' could indeed be a fair part of it. I still bet that I'd be far more confident on track with an 8 than with my MSM, even though I haven't driven an 8 hard in a year and a half, and that was just a test drive.
The added weight of the 8 is largely offset at high speed by the Miata's skinnier tires. Then again, if the SM he bought wasn't set up right, that could be a huge unaccounted for variable.
For the turns, yes, some of the gain is going to be the superior suspension design, though part of it may be that with the added power, the Miata gets a bit more nervous and less confidence inspiring, so the 'fearless' could indeed be a fair part of it. I still bet that I'd be far more confident on track with an 8 than with my MSM, even though I haven't driven an 8 hard in a year and a half, and that was just a test drive.
The added weight of the 8 is largely offset at high speed by the Miata's skinnier tires. Then again, if the SM he bought wasn't set up right, that could be a huge unaccounted for variable.
11-04-2014, 08:52 PM
#9
Water Foul
Thread Starter
All good points.
Just FYI, top speeds for momentum cars on this track are right at 100mph on the 3 long straights, so it is not a super fast track.
He did not have a hard top, so that could be part of it.
Yes, the Miata was noticeably nervous and twitchy in the corners, which caused me to back off and take the subsequent ones a little slower even though I consciously tried not to. It also just wanted to beat me to death like the aforementioned wooden roller coaster analogy, which contributed to a potential lack of confidence, I imagine.
Since suspension setup is a very broad thing, it is impossible to discuss all the variables. He said he had it corner balanced and aligned at Texas Track Works, and they certainly know what they are doing. I had mine done at Cobb Tuning, and they are also quite good. Perhaps a SM suspension is not for me, and I need to do something different there.
OK. With your input, I guess I am somewhat heartened that I may have originally been on the right track after all...
Just FYI, top speeds for momentum cars on this track are right at 100mph on the 3 long straights, so it is not a super fast track.
He did not have a hard top, so that could be part of it.
Yes, the Miata was noticeably nervous and twitchy in the corners, which caused me to back off and take the subsequent ones a little slower even though I consciously tried not to. It also just wanted to beat me to death like the aforementioned wooden roller coaster analogy, which contributed to a potential lack of confidence, I imagine.
Since suspension setup is a very broad thing, it is impossible to discuss all the variables. He said he had it corner balanced and aligned at Texas Track Works, and they certainly know what they are doing. I had mine done at Cobb Tuning, and they are also quite good. Perhaps a SM suspension is not for me, and I need to do something different there.
OK. With your input, I guess I am somewhat heartened that I may have originally been on the right track after all...
Last edited by Steve Dallas; 11-05-2014 at 08:13 PM.
11-04-2014, 08:58 PM
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Just don't do what I did, and try to make it work for both DD and track. A turbocharged Miata is a very potent track toy, but as a DD it sucks (compared to the 8). The 8 is a better DD, that is then also modestly capable on the track. So if you need a dual duty car, stick with the 8. If you can have a different DD than the track car, then yeah, the turboed Miata is cheaper to mod, cheaper to maintain, cheaper to track, and will spank what the 8 can do once you turn up the ***** (the ***** that are virtually impossible to turn up on an 8).
11-04-2014, 09:04 PM
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And if you are really unsure about the speed difference, there is a rather large swath of turbocharged miatas in texas, in part due to the proximity of Bell Engineering, one of FM's bigger competitors. They have quality/customer issues, but largely only for people not local to them. Getting a ride in a 250whp+ Miata should settle your speed disparity concerns. 
The 8 will still always have a better base of confidence on track, but with enough seat time that is mostly erased, and the 8 will always have the crippling problem of not really being able to make the car faster, once your skill is up to using all it can offer.
The 8 will still always have a better base of confidence on track, but with enough seat time that is mostly erased, and the 8 will always have the crippling problem of not really being able to make the car faster, once your skill is up to using all it can offer.
11-05-2014, 07:53 PM
#12
Water Foul
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I have a truck for my DD, so no worries there (this is Texas, after all). I want it to still be streetable at this point, but certainly not a DD.
You make a good point in your last sentence. The 8 still offers about 10% more performance than I have the ***** to extract from it. I am doing well and consistently improving my skills, but I have more room for improvement before the car is really holding me back as a driver. Well, other than not pulling on the straights, which is something I really wish it would do.
Still, the main drivers in my thinking are getting into a cheap car that I can buy with cash, that is cheaper to build out and maintain, that allows me to affordably add power as I need it, and that is old enough that I don't have to care about tearing it up on the track.
Thank you for your insight. Maybe I'll stick with the 8 for one more season and reevaluate.
You make a good point in your last sentence. The 8 still offers about 10% more performance than I have the ***** to extract from it. I am doing well and consistently improving my skills, but I have more room for improvement before the car is really holding me back as a driver. Well, other than not pulling on the straights, which is something I really wish it would do.
Still, the main drivers in my thinking are getting into a cheap car that I can buy with cash, that is cheaper to build out and maintain, that allows me to affordably add power as I need it, and that is old enough that I don't have to care about tearing it up on the track.
Thank you for your insight. Maybe I'll stick with the 8 for one more season and reevaluate.
Last edited by Steve Dallas; 11-05-2014 at 09:11 PM.
11-05-2014, 09:57 PM
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1) The car has a botched suspension/alignment/sways/setup in some way that makes it overly sketchy to drive.
2) The car has a setup intended for a more experienced driver that is far looser and nervous than what you are used to for your car. Given time to acclimate to the setup it could result in drastically faster times. I suspect this is the case. For as neutral as the RX-8 is and as forgiving as it is when driven hard, its still a very safe car. It doesn't rotate hard under throttle, or even lift-off oversteer.
When I first started competing in my Evo I had moderate camber settings, moderate spring rates, and moderate sway settings because dealing with the brutal straight line speed, braking, and aero was already a lot to deal with, getting extra rotation was not on my bucket list of wants. I had two pro Grand Am drivers pilot my car and both said the same thing "It's safe, but it isn't fast." Fast forward to the end of this season and with drastically more camber, increased front downforce, and a highly tweaked center diff the car pivots wildly compared to before. It's very loose, and sometimes it feels downright sketchy... but it's also seconds faster a lap than my old setup if I keep my foot in and drive.
TLDR: I suspect if you had more time to adjust to the harsher suspension and loose nature of the Miata you might see your lap times tumble.
11-08-2014, 11:04 AM
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Wooden roller coaster is actually a pretty good description of a Miata. That was why I sold mine, no matter what I did I could never get the chassis as stiff as I wanted. Roll bar, frame rail braces, I even had the hard top to quell cowl shake but it would groan over driveways and it pissed me off. I was about to install door bars when I realized it was kind of crazy trying to make a 15 year old flexi-flyer into a modern car and bought the RX8, mostly because it drives like a modern, hard top Miata.
11-10-2014, 09:01 AM
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Chasis rigidity. Physics.
I once drove a convertible E46 M3. That thing is nothing but wet noodle. It flexed so bad during cornering its not even funny.
The RX-8 has awesome chassis. The steering is just so direct. The chassis is very neutral you can do whatever you want to.
I once drove a convertible E46 M3. That thing is nothing but wet noodle. It flexed so bad during cornering its not even funny.
The RX-8 has awesome chassis. The steering is just so direct. The chassis is very neutral you can do whatever you want to.
Last edited by jasonrxeight; 11-10-2014 at 09:06 AM.
11-10-2014, 09:45 PM
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Aside from something being off in the car's setup, the ~20 inch difference in wheel base between an NB and RX8 could certainly be a contributing factor in the miata feeling nervous and twitchy when compared against the RX8. Add to that the miata's not-so-great aerodynamics (I remember my NB started to feel lite above ~85 mph), the 500-600 lbs weight difference (depending on equipment and fuel levels, etc), performance tires with short, stiff sidewalls, and maybe some tired bushings on the miata and it's easy to see how the miata could come off as nervous.
I've been going through the pro's and con's (and costs) of a force-fed miata for the last 8 months or so. I hope to add a miata to my garage this coming spring/summer, not as an RX8 replacement, but so I can have something that won't need to be a compromise between street and track.
I've been going through the pro's and con's (and costs) of a force-fed miata for the last 8 months or so. I hope to add a miata to my garage this coming spring/summer, not as an RX8 replacement, but so I can have something that won't need to be a compromise between street and track.
11-12-2014, 07:38 AM
#17
You never said what tires were on both cars? Worn out semis on the Miata could cause twitchy and nervous feelings. You said the Miata was corner balanced and aligned, so I am making the assumption that the alignment was good.
What suspension/alignment/tires are on your 8?
What suspension/alignment/tires are on your 8?
11-12-2014, 01:21 PM
#18
Water Foul
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The universal consensus seems to be that there was something not right with the Miata. Everyone with direct experience with well-tuned turbo Miatas seems to agree he should have been able to pull away from me on the straights and should have been more competent in the corners.
I don't know how much a direct comparison between suspension and tires will add to the discussion. His was a Spec Miata, so I assume he was running the SM suspension (Bilstein shocks / Eibach springs and sways). We talked about bushings, and he said his were fine. I certainly did not feel any looseness in that area, nor did I hear anything out of the ordinary. I assume they were OEM style rubber bushings according to Spec. I don't know what alignment settings he had. It appeared he was running more negative camber than I. That could have contributed.
My suspension consists of a set of Bilstein PSS9s with factory sways (plus adjustable end links). My alignment is a modest -1.5 in the front and -1.8 in the rear. My setup was more compliant than his for obvious reasons. Maybe it inspires more confidence in concert with the aforementioned longer wheel base?
As for tires, he was running Toyo RRs. I was sucking the last gasp of life out of my Potenza RE-11s, so he certainly had the edge on me.
I'll keep pondering this idea and look for another example of a turbo'd Miata before I make up my mind. Perhaps I'll just keep the 8 for one more season and then look to upgrade.
I don't know how much a direct comparison between suspension and tires will add to the discussion. His was a Spec Miata, so I assume he was running the SM suspension (Bilstein shocks / Eibach springs and sways). We talked about bushings, and he said his were fine. I certainly did not feel any looseness in that area, nor did I hear anything out of the ordinary. I assume they were OEM style rubber bushings according to Spec. I don't know what alignment settings he had. It appeared he was running more negative camber than I. That could have contributed.
My suspension consists of a set of Bilstein PSS9s with factory sways (plus adjustable end links). My alignment is a modest -1.5 in the front and -1.8 in the rear. My setup was more compliant than his for obvious reasons. Maybe it inspires more confidence in concert with the aforementioned longer wheel base?
As for tires, he was running Toyo RRs. I was sucking the last gasp of life out of my Potenza RE-11s, so he certainly had the edge on me.
I'll keep pondering this idea and look for another example of a turbo'd Miata before I make up my mind. Perhaps I'll just keep the 8 for one more season and then look to upgrade.
Last edited by Steve Dallas; 11-12-2014 at 01:23 PM.
11-12-2014, 01:41 PM
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If you ever find yourself up my way, let me know and I'll let you drive mine.
I just found and re-watched a video clip from a year ago at Summit Point where I caught and passed an RX-8 driven by another member here. At the time, my MSM was at ~200whp on the significantly inferior stock MSM turbo (vs the FM2 you drove), + the MSM's added ~150lbs plus an instructor vs SM weight, 380 treadwear all seasons (so far lower corner speeds), and alignment bolts that loosed up (diagnosed later, who knows what my alignment actually was on track), and had to keep pedaling part throttle to keep from driving over him after I'd pull right back up on him on the straights.
Granted, we were both in DE1 (though I was already signed off for DE2), i have no idea what his tires or skill level were like, etc... but still, i'll send you a link if you are interested.
I just found and re-watched a video clip from a year ago at Summit Point where I caught and passed an RX-8 driven by another member here. At the time, my MSM was at ~200whp on the significantly inferior stock MSM turbo (vs the FM2 you drove), + the MSM's added ~150lbs plus an instructor vs SM weight, 380 treadwear all seasons (so far lower corner speeds), and alignment bolts that loosed up (diagnosed later, who knows what my alignment actually was on track), and had to keep pedaling part throttle to keep from driving over him after I'd pull right back up on him on the straights.
Granted, we were both in DE1 (though I was already signed off for DE2), i have no idea what his tires or skill level were like, etc... but still, i'll send you a link if you are interested.
11-13-2014, 11:04 AM
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The universal consensus seems to be that there was something not right with the Miata. Everyone with direct experience with well-tuned turbo Miatas seems to agree he should have been able to pull away from me on the straights and should have been more competent in the corners.
If you get a chance take RIWWP up on his offer to take his car for a spin. I've driven it a few times now and its a fun car to scoot around in. The shorter wheelbase definitely feels twitchier than an RX-8, but the speed difference is night and day. His MSM completely ***** on RX-8s in acceleration.
12-07-2014, 07:46 PM
#21
Water Foul
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As it turns out, he showed back up at the track yesterday with a much improved car. He had the Hydra retuned, and the car performed much better. He also found out the car, in its original configuration, did not have a thermostat, and was not getting up to temperature until toward the end of each session. We didn't perform as much of a comparison as we did last time out, , I didn't have a chance to drive it, I was still able to best him, but I'm sure it was much closer this time.
I just scored a garage-kept '04 MSM with 64K miles for $9K shipped to my door. I'll take it to the track and see how it does before I do anything with the 8. If I bond with it, I'll spend the season performing the common upgrades in trying to get it to where I want it.
I just scored a garage-kept '04 MSM with 64K miles for $9K shipped to my door. I'll take it to the track and see how it does before I do anything with the 8. If I bond with it, I'll spend the season performing the common upgrades in trying to get it to where I want it.
Last edited by Steve Dallas; 12-07-2014 at 08:26 PM.
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