RX-Hachi

Now that's going a bit too far in the other direction, you are in the very small minority with that "sedan" opinion.

Sure the RX-8 may not meet the "classic" definition of a pure 2 seat sports car, but much of its award winning praise comes from the fact that it's the best of both worlds. The RX-8's designer, Noboru Katabuchi, emphatically proclaims the RX-8 as a sports car: "...most important are weight and size, which includes the proportions (styling) of the car. Whether a car has four doors or two is secondary...". He goes on to say that the WRX and EVO are not sports cars (in his opinion), because they do not have sports car styling, even though they have great performance.

Rotarian_SC

S2000 is a good car, it was a little bit cramped for me as well at 6'2 180. That Motortrend dyno looks really accurate, if you look hard enough you can even see the VTEC in the S2000 kick in :p. Basically on the dyno the RX8 actually has a little more hp until the VTEC kicks in, then the S2000 has more hp. This is what it looks like to me, but the only way for sure is dyno them on the same dyno right after eachother.

TODreamer

~sigh~

you tend to get this attitude/belief from 2seater peeps like this. The RX8 happens to combine the best of both worlds in design....and as a result it manages to create its own little "niche" in the car class categories....get over it. If the RX8 was truly meant to be a "sedan" you would actually get REAL doors and some more room in the back....it may not be the fatsest sport car in its category, yet it behaves exactly like a sports car.

Mazda's definition descibes it the best... "4-door sports car". I just don't see where you can get off calling it a "sedan", yet at the same time you can't really call it a "sports car" either.

RX8-TX

Absolutely!

At least I hope its not limited. I keep an eye every month on Mazda's sales, hoping to see good, strong, increasing sales numbers. If they can pull a profit through volume to justify the existance and further dev. on the Wankel...I'll sacrifice exclusivity....

My point...

You didn't need to come off that way, did you?

Anyways, good discussion!

Equis

I would just buy the RX-8 and go with your "butt-dyno", the 8 looks way better IMO. I think there is great potential in aftermarket tunning for the 8 as time goes by. As everyone has stated I love the feeling that it can be in any gear and it keeps revving like there is no limit to the engine.

DCSBlack Knight

Trying to compare the RX8 to anything with pistons is comparing apples and oranges.

Most Hp is rated at the cars max RPM potential, while the RX8 is rated at 8800 some 1000 RPM below the computer cut out and who knows were the real limit is.

I put my RX8 on a dyno and two members from our RX car club to compare tuning improvements. At the time my RX8 was still stock. The dyno cut out automatically at the 6600RPM level even though the cars were run up to the 9300RPM level. All the RX8 top out at 134MPH in 4th gear at 9300RPM.

The un-tuned RX8 (mine) showed 170hp to the rear wheels. The RX8 with tuned racing exhaust showed 180hp, and the RX8 that had the upgrade mapping done on the fuel air ratio showed about 185hp.

Is there a bias toward piston engines regarding dynos? Absolutely. Piston engines red line predominantly at 6600RPM. Also we who drive RX cars especially the RX8 must always keep in mind that the engine is turning one third the speed of the crank shaft.

That means that when the tack reads 9000rpm the engine is turning 3000 rpm. The hp and torque climb linear at a steady rate without drop off.

We have taken the cars on the track, and without being tuned for racing, no one can beat them. Maintain the RPM at a minimum of 6800 is what is required to achieve quick responsive acceleration. Remember, the RX cars are not piston engines. The RX8 does not just feel fast, it is FAST. Just try to out run an RX8 driven by someone who understands how to drive a rotary engine.

All I have to say is that the RX8 in reality is simply a detuned Mazda Star with a street legal body and four seats. To the track we go.

Zoom Zoom

S2000

I think you could also agree that the designer of the RX-8 may be just a little biased and want to plant the mental seed in everyone's minds that this car that he developed is a sports car. If you plant that seed in the minds of 25 to 40 year old American men that probably have a family to tote around, you will sell much more cars. And selling lots of cars is the name of the game. And I also agree that the EVO 8 and the STI aren't sports cars, they are bad a$$ sport sedans. Same as the M3, it's not a sports car. But that doesn't mean that the car isn't still amazing. I still say that the RX-8 is a great car and very peppy and well balanced, but still not a sports car in my eyes, and also in the eyes of most other 2 door sports car owners.
When a sports car has rear seats, the true meaning of a sports car is already being stretched a little bit. But there are and were so many cars out that have rear seats, ie. RX-7(one of history's greates sports cars).

But when you add more doors for access to those rear seats, you have crossed that line between "sports car", to "sports sedan".

TODreamer

Well.... I think you're over simplifing this a bit. Simply saying that any car with 2 seats is a "sports car" and any car with entry to rear seating is a "sedan" is way to simple. Not everything is gonna be "black and white" like that. sure the RX8 allows for entry to the rear, but those aren't even real doors in the back. If the RX8 was supposed to truly be a sedan, this desing wouldn't quite cut it.

Based on your definition a Pontiac Fiero would be a "sports car"....Do you feel comfortable calling that car a sports car??? No offense to any prior owners but that car moved like a pregnant yak.

oh well....i guess this is just a matter of opinion really as we could argue this till the cows come home.

S2000

I would classify a Fiero as a sports car. It actually handles pretty well for the era it was made in. As for it's power, yes, it's very weak, but then again, it was built in an era where horsepower was at a very low level in cars because of the 70's oil embargo backlash. Even V8's of those days were only putting out 200 to 250hp.

The Miata is similar to the Fiero, very small weak car, but handles very well and is very tossable.

It is somewhat opinion, but opinion plays a very small factor. Cars are what they are, my opinion doesn't change that. And clever marketing schemes don't change car classifications either.

HeelnToe

The Fiero isn't a sports car because it was never designed to be one. It's just a modified commuter car, like the Celica, Eclipse, etc.

In fact, it'd be difficult to classify the old MR2 as a sports car for the same reasons, regardless of how well it handles.

Sports cars, IMHO, must be designed from the very beginning as a sports car: Corvette, 911, S2000, Miata, RX-8, etc. Passing that test doesn't make it a sports car, but failing it does exclude it.

Lawerence

MOTORTREND DID NOT DYNO.
That is a HP plot, not dyno...big big difference.

Lawerence

Predominetly redline at 6600 lol pull #s out of a hat much?

And no dynos ARE not biased towards piston engines...
There are tons upon tons of 7 dynos, and 3 and 2 dynos....

RX8-TX

Let me chime in here very quick and say that classification varies upon the eyes of the classifier. Having said that, wether the 8 is a sports 'car' or 'sedan' or 2+2, or GT, or regular tourer, or SUV, or XUV, or a van...doesn't change the fact of how it feels driving it.

A while back, there was a body kit for Accords floating around. At first glance, you would have thought that thing was an exotic....what was under the skin? a FWD Honda Accord...the King of sedan & coupe car sales in the US. Is sport car worthiness skin deep? I hope not.

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

i don't think ANY sports SEDAN would design a BACKBONE center tunnel into its chassis.... that's a sportscar design...

RX8-TX

Kinks of FR cars mostly, of which we are barely starting to see a good sample.

TODreamer

The fiero didn't handle much better than the average car back then.... so what you're saying is a car with no performance or speed whatsoever can be considered a "sports car"???.....Does anyone else see the oxymoron here?

LOL... I don't know about that one. OK sure, if you look at the Miata's numbers...its not an *** kicking sports car...but the car can seriously move still....and again...the fiero's handling wasn't that hot....not even close to whats expected of a "sports car". IMO, aside from size there is no relative comparison between the two at all.

RX-Hachi

Perhaps so, but the real point is that the car was designed from day 1 as a sports car. Yes, the JDM RX-7 had back seats and so does the 911, perhaps the icon of what a sports car should be. The proportions of the RX-8 and 911 are very similar, which goes back to Noboru Katabuchi's point about the RX-8 being a sports car.
Why should the door design matter? The Diablo has a unique door design, as does the gull winged Mclaren F1 and the classic Mercedes 300SL. The RX-8 is no different in that it also has a unique door design.

You may not feel it's a sports car, and that's your opinion, no problemo. But it's certainly not a sedan. Let's see, Automobile's "Coupe" of the year, TopGear's "Coupe" of the year, hmmm, my registration and insurance card also say "2dr Coupe".