rx8 over the fd
01-05-2007, 02:38 PM
#77
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Originally Posted by Red Devil
Z owners have the luxury of being able to purchase stronger internals and lower compression pistons, etc...to get to that point. Out of the box, without a rebuild, it's not gaining more significant amounts of power than a Renesis gains at similar pressure ratios. Is the Z creating more power? Yes. But so what the Z has always historically been a more powerful car. Every Japanese competitor - Supra, Z, 3000GT, etc...has always created more power. If we're getting into rebuilding engines, and such, then we should just throw in a 20B and start all over again. But then I'd be using "ricer math" correct...I recall you using the same line in the past to shoot down others. 
Compare it to previous rotary turbos...the previous engines had the benefit of lower compression for more boost, safely on pump gas. The only reason low compression was an option before was because of the FC turbo or FD. Do you see a factory forced induction RX-8 anywhere? How about aftermarket low compression rotors that are for sale?
But you wanted a comparison:
The Pettit Twin Screw SC is boosting to about 8psi. It also suffers from parasistic drive losses in the upper rpms of at least 35hp. (check the compressor maps from OpconAB on a Lysholm2300AX or Autorotor420). Despite, the Renesis is putting down 265whp, and they are only using a GReddy catback.
The FD, ran the sequential turbos in a 10-8-10psi boost pattern. It produced ~210-215whp. Could the Pettit SC be more efficient than the sequentials? Yes. But not that much more to account for such a difference in power given similar pressure ratios, and the exact same displacement.
Or here's another article:
http://www.rx7.com/techarticles_rx8power.html
The irony of this is that for years now I've read everywhere on this forum you telling people to accept the RX-8 for what it is. Yet here, you're setting standards that are higher than what it is. So which is it?
Compare it to previous rotary turbos...the previous engines had the benefit of lower compression for more boost, safely on pump gas. The only reason low compression was an option before was because of the FC turbo or FD. Do you see a factory forced induction RX-8 anywhere? How about aftermarket low compression rotors that are for sale?
But you wanted a comparison:
The Pettit Twin Screw SC is boosting to about 8psi. It also suffers from parasistic drive losses in the upper rpms of at least 35hp. (check the compressor maps from OpconAB on a Lysholm2300AX or Autorotor420). Despite, the Renesis is putting down 265whp, and they are only using a GReddy catback.
The FD, ran the sequential turbos in a 10-8-10psi boost pattern. It produced ~210-215whp. Could the Pettit SC be more efficient than the sequentials? Yes. But not that much more to account for such a difference in power given similar pressure ratios, and the exact same displacement.
Or here's another article:
http://www.rx7.com/techarticles_rx8power.html
The irony of this is that for years now I've read everywhere on this forum you telling people to accept the RX-8 for what it is. Yet here, you're setting standards that are higher than what it is. So which is it?
All this nonsense about just give it time... It has been over 3 years and we're just now starting to see kits that can regularly top 300whp. If the Renesis has so much potential like you guys claim, then where are the results?
01-05-2007, 02:52 PM
#79
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We're actually on the verge of seeing kits that can top 400 hp on a stock engine. 300hp is downright easy. Just don't use a Greddy turbo! The ecu was an issue for a long time. That's pretty much going away. The Greddy turbo is pathetic so we can't use that as a basis for engine performance. There are also far less (apparently) RX-8 owners out there that don't want to void warranties or take the risks associated with forced induction as other car owners do. Not sure why but it's always been this way with other cars vs rotaries. How many originally non turbo RX-7's have we seen get really high horsepower numbers? The Renesis can do it plain and simple. Just because it hasn't been done yet (or at least not made public!) doesn't mean it can't be done. Why did it take humans until just a little over a hundred years ago to finally fly? That's when they got around to it. I can turbocharge a lawnmower and make it responsive to mods so the statement about an RX-8 being unresponsive to them is quite simply laughable and uneducated.
01-05-2007, 02:54 PM
#80
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Originally Posted by Ike
No, it's not ricer math at all. I just made the simple statementthat the S2000 and RX-8 don't respond all that well to mods and FI. Compared to many other cars on the market there is nothing false about my statement. The reason I've been telling people to accept the RX-8 for what it is is because it doesn't respond very well to mods.
All this nonsense about just give it time... It has been over 3 years and we're just now starting to see kits that can regularly top 300whp. If the Renesis has so much potential like you guys claim, then where are the results?
All this nonsense about just give it time... It has been over 3 years and we're just now starting to see kits that can regularly top 300whp. If the Renesis has so much potential like you guys claim, then where are the results?
It took 3 years b/c the rotary is a small market for the aftermarket. Nissan has a big leg up with the same engine in at least 8 vehicles. Economies of scale work wonders in the aftermarket. Ask GM. Subi/Mistsu/Nissan have been running the same basic internals and engines for many years, so of course there is alot of aftermarket.
01-05-2007, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
I can turbocharge a lawnmower and make it responsive to mods so the statement about an RX-8 being unresponsive to them is quite simply laughable and uneducated.
You guys have been on the verge of seeing big horsepower kits for the last 3 years... Just like you say about the people that claim the RX-8 is being cancelled, eventually you'll be right.
01-05-2007, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Ike
No, it's not ricer math at all. I just made the simple statementthat the S2000 and RX-8 don't respond all that well to mods and FI. Compared to many other cars on the market there is nothing false about my statement. The reason I've been telling people to accept the RX-8 for what it is is because it doesn't respond very well to mods.
All this nonsense about just give it time... It has been over 3 years and we're just now starting to see kits that can regularly top 300whp. If the Renesis has so much potential like you guys claim, then where are the results?
All this nonsense about just give it time... It has been over 3 years and we're just now starting to see kits that can regularly top 300whp. If the Renesis has so much potential like you guys claim, then where are the results?
So what if it's been 3 years. Time spent waiting doesn't corrolate to potential. And at that, you're not being accurate. The SFR kit has had been around for a while and many have purchased it. Just because only a few owners have been on this board doesn't mean it hasn't been operational. Or should some vendor come out with a GT42 kit and claim 500+hp capable? That would be potential just like the 350Z, right?
I'm not again addressing the issue of what parts are available to run more boost on pump gas with this car as a daily driver. The ultimate potential is limited by what fuel or fuel combinations the owner chooses to use in conjunction with the available compression and efficiency of their turbo/sc.
I'll tell you what...you explain to us how applying approximately 1.54pr to the Renesis, that has been proven to provide in excess of 300whp, isn't "responding well."
01-05-2007, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Ike
Ok, why don't we compare what boltons do for my car and a few other cars as well as the RX-8. Then we can compare them with various turbo kits... When I say they don't respond all that well to mods, I mean the results are unimpressive.
You guys have been on the verge of seeing big horsepower kits for the last 3 years... Just like you say about the people that claim the RX-8 is being cancelled, eventually you'll be right.
You guys have been on the verge of seeing big horsepower kits for the last 3 years... Just like you say about the people that claim the RX-8 is being cancelled, eventually you'll be right.
in fact I dont think I have seing a lot of NA car's that gaing 40 rwhp from exhaust, intake and an ecu tuned
Last edited by rotary crazy; 01-05-2007 at 03:12 PM.
01-05-2007, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by rotary crazy
ok, lets do this the other way around, name a couple of NA cars from the factory that respond better than the RX-8 to FI?
01-05-2007, 03:15 PM
#87
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I'm just going to laugh when the EVO X comes out and since Mistsu will have to update the engine control systems for environmental reasons, all the EVO guys cry foul b/c the aftermarket has no parts or can't tune there cars because of the ECU. Its coming, for both Subi and Mitsu. The EVO community has had it great since the car has been more of a evolution, no pun intended, than a bunch of new models.
01-05-2007, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rotary crazy
ok, lets do this the other way around, name a couple of NA cars from the factory that respond better than the RX-8 to FI?
in fact I dont think I have seing a lot of NA car's that gaing 40 rwhp from exhaust, intake and an ecu tuned
in fact I dont think I have seing a lot of NA car's that gaing 40 rwhp from exhaust, intake and an ecu tuned
01-05-2007, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by brillo
I'm just going to laugh when the EVO X comes out and since Mistsu will have to update the engine control systems for environmental reasons, all the EVO guys cry foul b/c the aftermarket has no parts or can't tune there cars because of the ECU. Its coming, for both Subi and Mitsu. The EVO community has had it great since the car has been more of a evolution, no pun intended, than a bunch of new models.
01-05-2007, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Red Devil
I've got a better idea. How about Ike ups the compression on his Evo to match ours and then gets back to us with the results. It's just as stupid as him wanting to compare his factory prepped FI car to our NA architecture.
It really doesn't matter guys, if you think 300ish whp with a turbo kit and expensive ECU mods is impressive then you have your right to feel that way. I don't find it impressive considering we've been hearing about these big HP kits coming for the RX-8 for years and they just haven't surfaced.
01-05-2007, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by mac11
I'm bringing my boot.
01-05-2007, 03:23 PM
#95
.:. causing mischief
Originally Posted by Red Devil
I want to go back there to get a boot...RSD what was that pub called again? I think we should go there Sat night.
call me later and we can discuss ...
/hijack or bootjack or whatever youd like to call it ...
01-05-2007, 03:24 PM
#97
Originally Posted by Ike
Just about every Accord and Civic out there, the Z and G35 like mentioned earlier, there are 400+whp Scions. That's are a lot more than a couple, I can name more if you like. Those cars also respond a lot better to basic boltons than the RX-8 and S2K does.
Show me a 400+whp scion on stock internals. or accord.....or civic. Id even like to see a 450+bhp(VERY generously 400whp) VQ on stock internals.
Just for a heads up, next I'm going to ask what the pressure ratio and compression is to get those cars to that mark.
After that I'm going to ask what kind of pressure ratio and internal work it takes to get your lancer to that mark. Oh and what the compression is.
Just so we can see a good comparison on a fairly level playing field.
Last edited by mac11; 01-05-2007 at 03:29 PM.
01-05-2007, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Ike
Just about every Accord and Civic out there, the Z and G35 like mentioned earlier, there are 400+whp Scions. That's are a lot more than a couple, I can name more if you like. Those cars also respond a lot better to basic boltons than the RX-8 and S2K does.
wich one of them gets 140 rwhp more tha stock with a turbo kit without internal work? and last a couple of weeks?
civic's an accord,s get 40 rwhp from intake, exhaust and ecu tune?
Last edited by rotary crazy; 01-05-2007 at 03:30 PM.
01-05-2007, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Ike
It really doesn't matter guys, if you think 300ish whp with a turbo kit and expensive ECU mods is impressive then you have your right to feel that way. I don't find it impressive considering we've been hearing about these big HP kits coming for the RX-8 for years and they just haven't surfaced.
I'm not working in raw numbers, mostly because I don't care about 500hp...I'm working with what it takes to get the engine to a certain power level. The fact is, it doesn't take all that much boost to start making good numbers with this engine.
Oh, and if we're talking about NA tuning, etc...TeamRX-8's car put down ~210-215whp on a Mustang dyno. The potential is there, you simply don't have many owners tapping into it.
We'll meet for drinks sometime...
Last edited by Red Devil; 01-05-2007 at 03:32 PM.
01-05-2007, 03:44 PM
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From everything I have read from aftermarket suppliers is that Mazda did not leave a lot of room for improvement with the 8. The Scion TC has a Camry motor. Same hp and everything. I was driving an S2000 when I bought my 8. It did not respond that great to small mods either. Honda did not miss much with it. Other cars such as the Cobalt, Scion TC, and Civics were made for economy, fuel milage, to hold price down. They just lend better to small things like exhaust, air intakes, headers. I would rather try to add a couple of more hp to 238 hp than to add 10 or 12 more to 155 hp.