VikingDJ

What started this whole mess was a wise guy being rude, and saying that Honda built this car to understeer, yet it's so easy to oversteer it. That's where I had the problem. What I was doing is comparing real every day driving. I am going through the learning process of using my vehicles to their potential. The point I was making is that the STI develops understeer rather quickly compared to my S2000. In my one auxo X experience, I let the back end kick out, because it was fun. I looked like a guy who couldn't control his car at times, but it was a lot more fun then slowing down. I'm gonna have to go many many more times to really get good on a course like that. On the real road, you obviously cannot do this. I think that was the misunderstanding behind oversteer vs understeer. The car can basically do both, and regardless of how good or bad I am as a driver, the fact is that I develop oversteer much more often in my experience, and I really don't care whether it means I suck at driving or not. You can't argue that fact, so if all you can do is criticize, well then, knock yourselves out. The numbers you showed with mild understeer are obviously with much more experienced drivers. I've been to many auto x tracks, and I've seen s2000s oversteer like hell on those courses just as I did. Youi proved my pojnt by showing those understeers by highly skilled profssional drivers. I'm not good enough to do that. Was that the initial discussion on understeer? or we were talking in general about what a car can do generally? I will never claim to be a great track driver, but what I can do is use my car on the street, have a lot of fun, while being safe at same time. Not sure what else to tell ya. I'm speaking from my experiences, and what others have said about the S2000 in the past. We all will develop traits to our cars depending on how we drive. In my 01, when I'd hit a turn hard, my back end always wanted to kick out. I guess it's the way I handle a corner. I don't know. I'm learning as I'm going. I guess the reality is the car does both, but the whole start of the conversation was about STI vs RX8 handling, and I pointed out how easy it is to understeer that car. One rude post started this mess, and I stooped to the level of a newbie wiseguy. For that I apologize. I need to learn to ignore these punkc trying to start crap.

army_rx8

thanks to all the babbling i totally forgot the point of this thread..i'm sue it was about 2 cars....but i don't think one of them was an s2000

sti_eric

Yes! Less about Hondas and more about cheating turbos, inferior chassis design, and kiddie clown cars!

VikingDJ

Yep. That's why I apologized. I was comparing my experience on sti and rx8, and I just happened to mention the S2000 into the comparison, and as usual someone steps in making stupid remarks, and instead of ignoring the meaningless post, I throw him some karma. SHAME ON ME. This thread was destined for some sort of argument. I'm surprised someone jumped in and started crap about the S2000, just at the mere mention of it in a post, and not the STI.


As Sti-Eric said, back to ripping the STI, calling it a ugly souped up econobox car that has a cheating turbo. Where are all the Sti hatas?

Kart Racer

wow this has exploded.....and why did we start talking about the S2000???

I think alot of you guys are really biased, the STI is a great car, and I have driven it before, even on a local race track. I find it is much easier to drive to the limits then the 8, it definatly handles better then the 8. Unfortunatly I cant quantify the difference between the 2 as far as handling goes as their is a big difference in power so a stright comparison is difficult.

Thanks Ike WRX for that post about lap times, its clear that the STI is much quicker everywhere

PhotoMunkey

"Folks when are you going to realize that ALL cars are built to understeer on the street, with the exception of higher dollar exotics with "performance pedigree"? The manufacturers are saving lives this way. Either be happy with what you have, or go to a track, take lessons, modifiy the hell out of your car, and LEARN what real performance driving is about. Don't talk about "my buddy drove away from me in the corners in his STi... Do I suck as a driver?" I should think that answer is already PAINFULLY obvious but just in case it isn't...
YES, You SUCK more as a driver than Monica Lewinsky did as a White House aide!"

Actually this point, which I believe is what you're referring to as from a "wise guy being rude" wasn't addressed to you specifically.

Revolver

VikingDJ,

A request. If you're going to post something long, would you kindly learn how to use paragraphs - it's much easier on the reader.

PhotoMunkey,

As hinted at by sti_eric, if you're going to quote someone, please learn how to use the quote button.

Otherwise, this is just the usual contest (i.e. the whole thread - not just you guys).

Why do grown men still feel the need to play mine is better than yours? Get a life.

astrozoom

All I can say is listen to an RX-8 and then compare that to the STI. If you don't get goosebumps when you hear the rx-8, go buy something else. :-)

VikingDJ

Revolver:
A request. If you don't like the lack of paragraphs, quotes or the content, please do not try and read, make your own remarks that only add fuel to the fire, and move onto the next thread. I realize I'm not practicing what I preach, but maybe you can. Telling me I need to learn how to use paragraphs is just plain being an ***. I don't like using paragraphs, because I don't care if it's easier to read for someone or not. Call me a ***** for being that way, but that's the way it is. DEAL WITH IT. Why do people feel the need to comment on something that they are not part of the discussion. What did you gain from this? That last statement applies to you as well, just because you actually posted this response. Get a life yourself. I'm having a bad day, so don't mess with me. I ain't n a mode right now where I'm gonna take any comments like this. Just move on buddy if you don't like what you are reading.

I will apologize in advance for this defensive remark if it has offended you in any way, but reading what you wrote just rubbed me the wrong way, as it appears everyone is doing today. You can't change the way the internet is, so if you can't beat em, ignore em, join em, or both. It's your call. I love this website for that reason. A place to vent.

Ike

You're welcome. If you want specific pages for the writeup of any of those cars let me know.

A few other things to realize. VikingDJ has allseasons on his STI which is only going to amplify the understeer, they also have too much grip to ever handle the way they were meant to without tires with really stiff sidewalls. Furthermore the handling has been sharpened each year of USDM STI production, the '05 handles better than the '04 and the '06 handles better than the '05. Also, the understeer is really easy to tune out by dropping a couple hundred on a sway bar and/or an alignment.

So what it comes down to is the STI handles better numbers wise and has higher limits in cloe to stock setup, but they feel VERY different. The STI attacks a roadcourse with ferocity while the RX-8 goes about it in a little more elegant manner. I also think on imprefect roads and a spirited drive out on a curvy road favors a car like the STI which has longer suspension travel and you have to do something beyond brave to really lose it.

VikingDJ

Cool, back to the discussion. Just to make a correction. I run the all seasons 5 months out of the year. My noticing the understeer has been on the factory tires. It's really bad with the all seasons. I can hardly use the car other then going in a straight line with those tires. The car handles like pure hell with the all seasons I got, compared to the stock tires. You are right though. The handling has improved each year, so I'd have to some minor mods to get mine up to par if I chose. Understeer was the biggest complaint and handicap when the 04 Sti was compared to the 04 Evo. I'm sure it has greatly been reduced. I'd like to get in an 06 Sti and see for myself.

Ike

My bad, thought you were keeping em on year round. If you want to get rid of some of the understeer you should really get a rear sway.

Revolver

Whatever mate.

Some of us are adult enough to have a bad day but still recognise constructive criticism when they see it instead of overreacting.

Frankly, your post says a helluva lot more about you than it does about me.

But pardon me - I'll let you get back to your discussion.

Ike

Using paragraphs would be nice, and I'm not saying it to be an ***. I've stopped half way through reading many of your posts in the past simply for that reason.

VikingDJ

Not necessary really for a daily commuter car, and I really don't care to be honest. The S2000 is my actual enthusiast fun car. I just wanted to try and give my insight on these two cars. I have read all the time on the sti forum at how the handling has improved, and I'll assume this is true. The STi and RX8 are just so different in the way they handle, it's darn near impossible to compare them, or call one better. If you want an easy tossable car, the RX8 will fit nicely. The STI makes you work more in the turns, and with all that power, you need to learn a different way of driving. I've been using this car as a straight line muscle commuter on pure highway, and now I'm starting to use it for it's handling performance, and it's doing things I don't want it to do. It's all a learning process.

Revolver

And as a peace offering I'm happy to say that I agree with every syllable of that.

Which is why I thought the thread unproductive.

VikingDJ

Oh come on now. I apologized in advance, yet you still felt the need to pop shot back. You asked me to learn how to use paragraqhs, then add more unnecessary comments. IN fact, what I am typing is unnecessary. LOL This is how you say it. "Can you please use paragraphs, so I can have an easier time reading?" You know for next time. I guess I deserved it because I was quite rude. I suppose it's all in the way you read. I actually hate using paragraphs, so I'm sorry it bothers some of you. I'll try and make it pleasing to all to read from now on.

Revolver

Hey, you vent, I vent, we all vent.

It's all good. Bygones.

VikingDJ

Offer accepted. Someone close this thread. It's a cold rainy day and evening, and my weekend plans got ruined, so I'm sitting on a computer posting garbage on a meaningless topic. Seriously, I was being over-sensitive, and I really am sorry about that.

V Vette

iTrader: (-1)

Beauty (8) vs the ugly beast !!!!!

DARKMAZ8

Am I late for the party?

DARKMAZ8

It's all about the twisties baby.....

DARKMAZ8

twisties!!!!

Kart Racer

everyone keeps bringing up the looks, the sound blah blah blah of the 8. I love my Rx-8. I just started this post to get some other opinions of the two as far as handling. This isnt which is better or worse as a car.

Some people are saying close this topic which is beyond ridiculous, this is the rx-8 discussion forum, and im discussing the differences that can be accounted for in my friends car vs. mine.

PhotoMunkey

Okay, to avoid offending anyone I'll use paragraphs and full, grammatically-correct sentences, where possible. That's sarcasm in case anyone notices.

"Under steer", while a liability in a car on tarmac, is a boon, a tool, and greatly desired in a RALLY car operating in dirt, gravel, or wet conditions. The "Scandinavian flick" requires that the car be able to scrub off speed rapidly when pitched sideways before a corner. An under-steering car will simply "roll out" of a slide when the wheels are turned into direction of the slide. The "sideways position" of the car also squares it up with the corner exit, enabling the driver to "get on the gas" much earlier. In some cases it even looks like the driver never gets OFF the gas! If the car were neutrally-balanced, or even rear-biased, the rear would want to over-rotate. This would be very bad in a short-wheelbase vehicle such as the STi. That transition would be very abrupt and would probably result in a spectacular crash!

The obvious exception to this rule is the early Porsche 911, which was famous both for lift-throttle over steer AND for winning rally events. With enough steering angle, those little machines can be slid sideways on the dirt, then, with the throttle to the floor, transition through a corner with the majority of the weight forcing the rear tires to bite hard for whatever traction may be available. They do NOT use the "Scandinavian flick" though because that's typically a lift-throttle maneuver, which the 911 doesn't like. Brake late, turn hard for the apex, mat the throttle, slide the car out of the turn. That's the Porsche way!

Many street and track-going STi cars benefit from an adjustable rear anti-sway bar, such as the one available from Progress Technology, who also makes a bitchin' coil-over spring and shock package for that model. Once the rear of the car has been stiffened, the mechanical grip of the rear tires will have been reduced compared to the front, and will "slide" just a little while rolling through a corner. Audi AWD cars typically have more rear roll stiffness than Subaru cars do, as the Germans do build their cars more for street handling. The Mitsubish Evo 8 and 9 also have more rear roll stiffness and normally post a marginally faster slalom time because of this in every STi vs. Evo test. If a certain reader/driver is happy with his STi on all-season tires, on the street, then more power to him. To complain about the STi's under-steer, or rave about the S2000s superior cornering ability, is interesting at best, and does serve to show how little experience he has piloting both machines "at the limit" (which should NOT be attempted on the street). I applaud him for his use of auto-x events for his on-going learning.

The RX-8, however, is only designed to be a driver's car, with balance, camber curves, and roll centers optimized to allow the driver the option of how he wants to position the car in the corner. This is why the RX-8 feels "better" to under-experienced drivers. While it has considerably high handling limits, its chassis allows a driver to approach those limits sensibly. An STi does not, unless modified, and requires more skill to use it's "big speed" capabilities. An S2000 is a fine street car, and was designed also as a driver's car, in that it was blessed with go-cart handling and a willing-to-rev engine. Honda does not, however, share Mazda's experience in building a balanced-chassis RWD street car (the S2000, though elegible for ST-class Grand American racing, does NOT boast even one single team currently campaigning that model). This should be apparent in the fact that Honda did have to make serious chassis revisions four years after the S2k introduction. This did make the car better on the street, as one owner has pointed out, as it evened out the car's spin-out happy characteristics, but did so by reducing front mechanical grip, which effectively limits the car's entry speed to a corner. That trade-off increases rear grip, relative to the front, which allows faster mid-corner, and corner-exit speeds, and better control of the chassis' overall slip-angle. THIS, as is not often pointed out, is a critical compenent of rear tire temperature. Overheat the rear tires on the track with excessive sliding, and no matter how good of a driver you are, you're going to be slower than other drivers. Witness the evidence for yourself in the "RX-8 vs S2k" video posted in the "Pictures and Video" section of this forum. The S2k (probably an early version) was beaten like a rented mule, by five seconds at the end of 5 laps, simply because the rear of that car kept sliding under power. The RX-8 A-spec demonstrates the benefit of the Mazdaspeed suspension components...


Sharpening the handling edge of a street-going car comes at a price (both figuratively and metaphorically). On one hand, the increase in handling is usually apparent to anyone driving the car. On the other hand, the OEM "margin of safety" is typically reduced unless the owner/driver knows exactly what he wants the car to do. Most, in my experience, want little more than to achieve a "lowered stance", with little understanding how that can drastically worsen a car's handling.

What we don't know, from the original STi vs. RX-8 post is, "What changes have been made to the STi, or is the owner, as some have suggested, simply more accustomed to using its peculiar handling and AWD benefits?"

Please note: no tender egos were injured during the writing of this post. All possibly caution was excercised to preserve and protect the thin-skinned from harm.