tallguylehigh

Ok, like the rest of you I have been following the RX-8 from it's very conception. Now as the date draws near when the production version comes near I am getting worried about the price of the RX-8 and thusly, its appeal in the market. What seems like a long time ago, it was promised at Sevenstock that the 250-hp car would start at 26-27K, and that the automatic version would round out the range at the top. Now it seems as though that information has flip-flopped, with a low power motor at 26 and the high power tipping the scales at 32K . Where has this high performance, low cost, 350Z fighter gone? Seems to the pastures of lost dreams. Plus with all of the information our resident informant Boowana has provided us, this element of the RX-8 has eluded us. So what's the story? My concern grows more as the release date approaches.

droidekaus

Nobody buys a base-model Z. Really. No LSD, no HIDs, no nothing. The only one's who did order the base were those who could barely afford the car in the first place. 60% of all pre-order Zs were the Touring trimline which ranges from $33K to $37K w/nav. If the top-of-the-line RX-8 comes out around $32K, IMO, that's a great price for what you get. The S2K comes in at ~$32K and on paper the RX-8 looks like an S2K with four seats and a hard-top.

EDIT: Also, that $26K starting price on the Z really hurts the interior quality for the rest of the trimlines. It makes me angry to think that I share the same interior in my $35K Touring w/the $26K base. Hopefully Mazda will put a few more dollars into the interior quality to begin with and aim the costs of the more expensive RX-8 at drivetrain/handling enhancements.

R.Cade

The automatic is not detuned.. it is rev limited by the auto-trans, which limits it's peek HP output.

Looking at the Torque/HP curves, you will see that if the automatic can only rev to 6500 rpm, it will make about 210hp peek, which is the same as the manual does at that RPM. If anything, it will be tuned to have a hair more low end power.

HP curve..
http://www.rx8forum.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=6002

R.Cade

And Torque..
http://www.rx8forum.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=6003

Sputnik

Sounds "detuned" to me...

Speaking of detuning, since the base 350Z doesn't have a "detuned" engine (not as far as I know, anyway), I expect many people would opt for not spending extra money on a bunch of extra options, when all they want is the styling and the engine with the fat torque band that droidekaus mentions in another thread.

There are those who would rather not have an LSD or HIDs, needless to say those who don't think that they are worth what they cost. Unless Nissan just isn't sending too many base 350Zs over here, I don't think they'd be hard to sell.

As far as the pre-order numbers line up, I would expect the pre-order list to be full of those who would be more enthusiastic about buying the top-end model anyway. In fact, I'm surprised that only 60% of those pre-ordering opted for the top model. I doubt that it is indicative of what sales will be once the "newness" wears off.

---jps

droidekaus

You do touch on a very important part of the 350Z philosphy that I always forget. Same powertrain and suspension tuning throughout the entire line from Base to Track. Funny thing happens where most people assume that the Track is really the top of the line when all you're getting over the Touring is the Rays wheels and Brembos. No stiffer suspension which seems to be a common misconception. The weight difference is negligable at 22 pounds between the Track and Touring in the Track's favor. I would have loved the Brembos, but I wanted leather and Nissan does not allow mix and match options.

As far as no LSD, there's NO WAY I'd take a fairly powerful RWD car without it. Quite a few poor, dumb bastards coming from FWD Civics and the like have already complained about doing 180s in both the wet and the dry. Granted that's more of a problem with not understanding throttle modulation around corners in a RWD car, but still, I've driven trucks without an LSD and taking off from a stoplight in the rain was an excercise in futility most of the time.

fritts

I read on the zcar forum something like only 5% of all 350Z's sold were the Base trim.

Sputnik

Is the master brake cylinder also upgraded on the track model? Even if it is, depending on how much you want to spend (and if you want to void that portion of your warranty), you should be able to get the brakes from a Nissan parts dealer, and bolt-em on (assuming the wheels you already have will fit with them). That's a common trick used on other cars (I.E. putting '94+ brakes on a '90 Miata). I wonder if the Brembo package offers a weight reduction...

---jps

Quick_lude

Is that true?! I thought the suspension was also recalibrated.. Damn in that case the track version is NOT worth the extra money..

droidekaus

The Brembos are extremely cost-prohibitive on the order of $3,200 for the fronts alone. I'd rather spend $2K on the Stoptech 13" 6-piston kit if I do go aftermarket. The only reason I'd want to (obviously) is to reduce fade. I haven't tracked the Z at all yet, but will find out how well or poorly the stock brakes hold up early next year. Prelim reports on the non-Brembos so far is not that good when it comes to heavy lapping.

BTW, love the PD Cunningham sig. I'm a big fan and wish he could have taken the GT title this year as well. Not that I hate Galati, but I like PD better. He's a great guy. Where's that shot from? Sebring?

Toadman

Oh ye of little faith, step forward to the Rotary Altar and pay homage for what is soon to be revealed among current preliminary 'teaser' and 'questionable' press write-ups from 6-month lead-time media.

Along with die-hard fanatics in Japan and the US, we should all rejoice being counted among those who have/had an impact upon a remarkable Rotary Resurrection from the very precipice of extinction. Anyone know how close the program was to being killed off? The rotary engine is still off the public radar screen as a viable emissions-friendly powertrain. Let's pray Mazda gives them something to seriously consider as an option. Newcomers considering the RX-8 are in for one heckuva treat, I'll tell you that. *evil grin*. :D

Hercules

*We now return to Toadman's televangelist program, where he collect donations for the higher power!*

Preach on brotha Toady

Sputnik

That certainly makes sense. But what about the rear?

Quote:

...BTW, love the PD Cunningham sig. I'm a big fan and wish he could have taken the GT title this year as well. Not that I hate Galati, but I like PD better. He's a great guy. Where's that shot from? Sebring?

Yay, another World Challenge fan! Actually, that shot is a still from a video that my friend took at NSXpo 2001 at Road America. Since the Realtime shops are close by, PD brought up the NSX and an Integra for the event.

---jps

droidekaus

85% of braking is done with the fronts on the Z. No need to change if you don't absolutely want to (and you're not building a full-on race car), however StopTech is working on a full kit. The 13" StopTech kit actually comes with 4-piston calipers, not 6-piston. The 14" kit does come with the 6-piston calipers and a local guy already has that kit installed. They are HUGE!!!

Where are you in the metroplex? I'm up in Frisco.

m477

What brake pads were they using? Stock? Even if you have the track version w/Brembos, the stock pads aren't gonna hold up under heavy track use. NO street pad, no matter how big or expensive will be able to handle hi-temp track use.

BryanH

What do you mean by "hi-temp track use"? Because MR2 Spyders will lap a racetrack all day on their factory brakes with no fade and good pad wear. And I don't mean just tootling around the course... I mean really scooting. The car isn't terribly powerful so it doesn't build up massive speed on the straights. And its mere 2,200lb weight helps too.

Now for a car like the Z, which is on the heavy side, I can understand brake fade being a problem.

Sputnik

Personally, I don't upgrade fronts only, unless the only issue is fade up front (and the rears are fine when the fronts fade).

I live in Irving. No offense Bryan, but I'll believe that when I see it. There are MKII MR2 turbo owners that contend that same thing, and some that contend that you cannot improve upon the performance of a '91 Turbo setup with race pads. I know from personal experience that that isn't accurate. Yeah, there is a BIG difference between a "momentum car" and a 3300 lb beast that's going to be coming into that braking zone at a much faster speed. Put a turbo on the Spyder, and it will develop needs for bigger brakes.

---jps

BryanH

Well, I know from first hand experience talking to and riding with MR2 Spyder owners at track events that they don't need brake upgrades of any kind the way the car is from the factory. Some of them do stainless braided lines or more aggressive pads for good measure, but not all. The car can dive deep into corners, lap after lap.

Quote:

Put a turbo on the Spyder, and it will develop needs for bigger brakes.

Nope. I have driven a turbo Spyder around a racetrack. Stainless steel braided brake lines (and possibly hi-temp fluid, I didn't ask the owner about this) were the only mods. Yes, factory pads were used. No brake fade, no excessive pad wear. Trust me, the Spyder brakes are superb.

Sputnik

Again, I don't believe that factory compound pads are going to hold up to the stresses of a turbo Spyder. As good as the brakes may be, the compounds are simply not going to repeatedly handle the kind of heat that you should be generating. If you're not generating that much heat, then there is something wrong with the brakes or tires, or you're driving it like a girlie man.

---jps

Hercules

Wouldn't the weight of the car have something to do with the fade

TheSaCK

I dont know how many of you actually get on a race course and beat the crap out of the cars, so i would tend to think that the standard brakes should be just fine 99% of the time. now is it really worth spending another 1 k to put bigger pads on it? im more thinking in the lines of kick *** sound system and some LCD monitors.

If anyone fixes up their car like crazy and actually runs races...where exactly?

Hercules

I think you'll find RX owners track their cars more often than most

TheSaCK

opsie?

still...i rather listen to thumping music while losing the race =X
stubborn me =D

Quick_lude

Personally other than some really high end cars like Porsche or Ferrari, I don't think any stock brake setup on a car can withstand continous hard lapping. Especially on courses with longer straights where speeds get up to 200km/hr+ A few friends of mine have been on the Mosport track in Ontario and you NEED a better brake setup there, unless like Sputnik said you are not driving to full potential. I've been on a few tracks where the longest straight allows about 130km/hr and with plenty of turns the brakes might be ok...

BryanH

Well you don't have to believe it if you don't want to.

Quote:

As good as the brakes may be, the compounds are simply not going to repeatedly handle the kind of heat that you should be generating. If you're not generating that much heat, then there is something wrong with the brakes or tires, or you're driving it like a girlie man.

I admit I was driving the car a bit conservatively since it wasn't mine and the owner was in the car with me. But I wasn't exactly pussyfooting around either. I left a margin for error but gave the car a good workout too. Anyway, the owner of the car is exceptionally skilled at this sort of thing, has been doing it for years, and trust me when I say he's pushing the braking points back as far as he can. The brakes were never a problem in the car all day. Now granted we were doing "mere" 30 minute sessions every hour, but that is also plenty of time to get heat into the brakes. Straightaway speeds topped 100mph easily.

I guess we can agree to disagree, but I know first hand what I'm saying is the truth.

It would. The MR2 Spyder weighs just 2,200lbs (in your face Mazda! :p).


I think in a modern sports car, a big brake kit is a waste of money unless you've *seriously* upgraded the rest of the car (engine, suspension, tires, etc). A good set of pads, lines, fluid, and maybe slotted rotors, should be plenty for most any car.