Buger

One common measurement of handling is the slalom speed. How fast do you think the RX-8 will go in the slalom?

halfon

This question makes no sense to me.

which slalom ?

How can we guess ?

What is the meaning of this poll ?

pelucidor

I would hope it is at least 2mph better than a 350Z.

However as there seems to be no standardized slalom test (some magazines seem to have different spacing of cones on different surfaces and hence different slalom numbers for the same car) it would be difficult to suggest a number for this poll. Perhaps if you suggest the Car & Driver or Road & Track slalom specifically and give some examples of others cars' numbers (Porsche, Ferrari etc ) then we can participate in the poll better.

Buger

My bad guys,

I thought that the slalom test was pretty much standardized. I found out that the Road&Track slalom is a 700 ft course with cones spaced 100 ft apart. The Motor Trend slalom test is a 600 ft course with cones spaced 100 ft apart.

The times should be pretty similar for both tests as this isn't a race for best time for the different distances.

Let's go with the Road&Track slalom test which they descibe as:

"run through eight cones spaced at 100-ft intervals, samples both controllability and grip during transient handling. Significant difference is 1.0 mph"

Some other times from Road&Track (in mph):

02 Acura NSX ............... 65.8
02 RSX Type-S ............. 66.8
98 McLaren F1 ............. 64.5
99 TT Coupe (turbo)..... 64.4
02 330Ci ...................... 63.1
00 Camaro SS ............. 60.0
03 Corvette Z06 ........... 67.5
99 Viper GTS-R.............. 65.3
01 SVT Mustang Cobra . 62.9
01 Accord EX V6 ........... 58.2
01 S2000 ..................... 65.9
01 Miata ....................... 62.7
01 Maxima SE................ 60.4
00 Jetta GLX ................. 61.2

Brian

revhappy

Some more times (from their "Get a Grip" test of top handling cars):

Lotus Elise: 73.0
Porsche 911 Turbo: 70.2
MP3 Protege: 70.2
Porsche Boxer: 69.7
Ferrarri 360 Modean: 69.7
Mitsubishi Lancer VII: 68.7
BMW M3 Coupe: 67.4
Chevy Corvette Z06: 67.3

Fëakhelek

Doesn't look likely that the RX-8 will be in either of the top two categories in the poll.

Buger

What makes the slalom time interesting is that most sports cars are usually geared for fast 0-60 times and need to be in their lower torque 3rd gear for their best slalom times. The RX-8 is geared so that it can reach approx 69 mph @ 9000 rpm and 73 mph @ 9500 rpm in second gear.

Want to talk wide powerband? How about 95% or greater torque from 37 mph to 66 mph in 2nd gear?!?!

Despite it's long wheelbase, the RX-8 may end up surprising people who don't think that any 4-door "sports sedan" can have similar handling to the small nimble s2000. Can the RX-8 possibly beat it?

Brian

revhappy

Interestingly, the G35 had better slalom times than the 350Z in car and driver and road and track (I think those were the mags) despite being a few hundred pounds heavier. It got around 67 mph in both magzines.

Buger

I assume the G35 that had the better times had to be the coupe version right? It still wouldn't seem to make sense that the G35 coupe would be faster in the slalom than Nissan's dedicated sports car 350z.

Were the times very close to each other? It would be interesting to see a head to head test of the 2 cars.

revhappy

Buger,
Attached is the Road and Track article:



http://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews/...eID=372&page=3

G35: 67.7 0.92G
350Z: 65.6 0.89G

They said it "feels more balanced and stable through the corners." It sounds like that rx7 and rx8 video floating around.

http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caran...adtest_g35.xml

This Car and Driver article says that G35 got 0.90G on the skidpad (besting the 350Z's 0.86G from an earlier test).

Unfortuantely, Car and Driver didn't give slalom times, which is the better measurement IMHO.

Buger

Thanks for the links revhappy,

It's odd that Nissan/Infiniti gave the G35 better handling capabilities than the 350z. There must be a few upset 350z owners who wished they had gotten a G35?

revhappy

I can imagine, but I think the G35 is more money? What do you think accounts for the better handling stats of the G35? Better tires, suspension, etc?

While, I think the slalom test is a decent, rough indicator of a car's ability to make quick transitions, i don't think its a definitive proof of a car's handling ability. I thought Road and Track's "Get a Grip" comparison I referenced before, provided a nice mix of different handling measures. Too bad, all reviews don't utilize all those tests.

I still would much prefer taking an S2000 (or a Miata), out for a drive through the mountains than a G35, no matter what the slalom times indicate.

atr_hugo

Having driven both the Z and G35 recently, it can be reported that the Z tested had Bridgestones (RE050, IIRC) and the G35 had Michelin Pilots (can't remember the spec but they were not all seasons). The G35 was a little more 'softly' suspended. So the tires are a tossup and the suspension goes to the Z (where stiffer would be a benefit on a smooth course slalom).

The V6 protrudes forward of the centerline of the front wheels on both cars which puts a lot of weight on the nose. The Z sits on a 104" wheelbase and the G35 sits on a 112" wheelbase. Better weight bias front to rear in the G35 probably accounts for the difference.

And I'd take my Miata on a twisty road any day over a G35; but, if I had to hustle three people through Texas in a hurry, the G35 would not be a bad way to do it.

Fëakhelek

Maybe they felt more comfortable pushing the G35 than the Z. I don't know how many runs they take at the slalom to get a best time, but I imagine that if the Z felt more "twitchy" they might have held back from pushing it to the limit. Just a thought.

atr_hugo

Twitchy doesn't bother these guys, honest. If you look at the backgrounds of the guys they have doing the testing you'll see lot's of driver's school time and quite a bit of road racing experience. They enjoy hanging the tail out, with a passion!

What can seriously hurt slalom times is 'understeer' otherwise known as 'push'. The only way to counter that in a slalom is to lift throttle (and hope like hell that you don't induce lift throttle oversteer - watch a swing arm rear suspension at the limits when the throttle is lifted, it's how Ralph Nader got his start ;-).

So the problem is that a nose heavy car will push and the only practical way around that in a slalom is to lift and then you've elongated your times. (Now on a road course you can induce oversteer by manhandling the car if it pushes - it's a kick in the butt to take a lap with a driver that has that kind of skill.)

IGOZMZM

Road & Track's April 2003 issue says that they tested the 700-ft slalom at 65.4 mph

ToRX-8orToZ

65.4 Heh. What was the Zs again? :o

Hercules

65.6.

Regardless of the fact, the handling of the RX-8 is superior as per Car and Driver's notes... so I'll take their word for it.

zoom44

ROAD AND TRACK
Mazda RX8: 0-1/4 mile 14.5 @ 95.6 mph. Skidpad 0.88g
Nissan 350Z: 0-1/4 mile 14.4 sec @ 99.7 mph. Skidpad 0.88g.

big advantage having so much more torque

Quick_lude

This is my question, how big of a factor are tires in this test? Methinks its a big factor and the proof is right above us. Imo the Pilot Sport is a much better tire than the RE040.. this might be why the G35 is able to beat the Z, IF the G35 coupe comes with the Pilot Sport tires. I'm assuming it does, there is no way it could achieve this speed on all season tires.

So for the RX-8 make sure you try to order it with the S03 and it should be faster around the cones than the Z if these numbers mean so much to you.

ToRX-8orToZ

Being 200 some odd pounds lighter, I was expecting the 8 to easily have better slalom times then the Z.

Hercules

It is also a much longer car, so don't forget that.

The McLaren F1 has a longer wheelbase to achieve great handling yet its slalom is less than impressive. While it's a good measure, it's not the only measure. The Lotus Elise for example is a VERY short car and thus has *great* slalom numbers, same with the Mazda Protege MP3.

revhappy

So a longer car is the primary driver of times in slalom tests?


Let's see:

G35: Length: 182.2 inches
Wheelbase: 112.2 inches
Slalom Per R&T: 67.7

350Z:Length: 169.6 inches
Wheelbase: 104.3 inches
Slalom Per R&T: 65.6

Since they are built off the same chassis, some other
thing (s) must be accounting for the times?

It seems you changed your single explanation for the MP3's great slalom times? (BTW. the RX8 is actually .3 of an inch shorter than the Mazdaspeed Protege!) In the post below, you said it was because the MP3 was lighter than the competition.

http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.p...0429#post30429

As you see in my reply to your post in that thread (and can probobly infer from this one) that the expalantion why cars get good slalom times is more complex than you suggest. In my reply there is a link to a post in the WRX forum (yes a link to a link!) that gives IMHO some good insight as to some of the things which may influence slalom and skidpad times.

The thing that irked me was R&T's comments of "moderate understeer" on the skid pad and "mild oversteer" on the slalom, the two things you don't want on those respective tests at least according to the post on the WRX forum

Quick_lude

Are these tests always conducted in the same spot on the same surface, with very similar temperatures? If not, I'm sure the differences in the above can/will affect the results.. Just like in a skidpad test.

ToRX-8orToZ

RX-8 Wheel Base: 106.4

350Z Wheel Base: 104.3

Its not much of a difference.

I honestly expected a slalom time around 66-67. I have a feeling Mazda may have sacrificed a little too much by going with a soft suspension; it shouldnt be too difficult to cut down on the body roll R&T was commenting on.