saturn

You actually didn't say that at all. In fact you didn't even use the word "effect" at all. You said that global warming is now a fact. And I was commenting that the other guy never questioned this. Your quoting of him and the language in your response, namely the word "actually", implied that you disagreed with him. I stand by my statement as accurate.

Also, I don't believe any of the other things you said, but I do believe that there is no legitimate proof that the measurable increase of carbon dioxide in the air caused by humans is directly related to global warming. Climate changes happen and just because it's convenient to believe all the global warming theories doesn't make them any more true. Reducing pollution and smog are about a quadrillion times more important in my opinion.

Deslock

Many defense hawks have been critical of how we hyped up Iraq's WMD capabilities, so your characterizations are off the mark.

We went to war for various reasons so let's not drift into an argument over whether it was justified at all. But as far as WMDs are concerned, we were told Saddam had reconstituted his WMD programs. My understanding is that the 500 munitions you're referring to were left-over 15-years-old (or older) mustard gas canisters, long since degraded, buried, and forgotten near the Iranian border after the Iran-Iraq war.

Some senators (such as Santorum) cited the Sarin as justification for the war. But Bush's former Iraq survey crew chief and chief UN weapons inspector David Key said Santorum is:
Also, a defense department official said that these:So in that context, isn't it relevant to ask about the potency of of abandoned Sarin? Also, you mentioned November elections... you don't think that Santarum (down 18% in the polls) propped up these degraded and militarily unusable weapons for political purposes?

Winfree

Mustard has an amazingly long shelf life. I know of one case where a young couple, in France, wandered into an old WWI battle field, ignored the warning markers, and made glorious love in a crater hole. They learned, by sore experience, just how potent 80 year old mustard can be. The kicker was that when the spouses of the victems showed up they also learned how painful infidelity can be.

Kerds, learned also from experience how potent mixtures of Sarin and mustard can be, and how the effects can linger in the water table. This mix is extreamly terratogenic. For some villages no 'normal' children have been born for over 10 years. Cleft pallets so deep that you are trying to repair cleft faces!

Reason to believe that far more than just a few old munitions were found, and my sources were very reliable! However, we have still not found the hiding spots of certain bacterial and virial cultures, which may have been shipped to Syria. I had tracked some of these for over 20 years - I hope to goodness they might have been sterilized out of existance in some bombing raid - I keep my vaccinations current, even though I am retired. Try reading Ken Alibeck's Book, Biological Warfare, written long before the Iraq war - and he had no reason to lie...

Nuclear war is nothing! The best thermonuke out there can only make a pit about 20 miles across. Roaches and the little black stink bugs that can kneal like Muslims praying, (to collect dew drops) thrive in the deserts where the bombs were tested in Nevada.

There is stuff out there that could be delivered by missile that could leave a line 400 miles long, 20 miles wide, where you won't have to worry about the roaches for the next 100 years. As for germs - how much longer before we find a cure for AIDs? The HIV virus is hard hard to catch - but it's bigger uglier brothers are out there just waiting in some idiot child's freezer! It's stuff that will make lover's abandon their partners and mothers flee from their children...

It is nice to think it's all about whether a few politicans get elected - its nice to hide with a computer and a TV, ignore the Tokoyo subway bombers, and try and say maybe it wasn't a plane that hit the Pentagon...

Sometimes I wish I was still that innocent....

saturn

Winfree -- you astound me. This thread started out being about the RX-8 hybrid and here are a handful of phrases that you used in this thread before anyone else:

• global warming
• political
• prop[a]ganda
• ENRON
• WMD
• Sarin
• Clinton
• Kerry
• Bush
• Biological Warfare
• Iraq
• Pentagon
• AIDS
• HIV

Deslock

Sure, many types of leftover munitions are dangerous. But I've yet to read or hear any convincing arguments supporting the citing of these munitions (abandoned since the Iran-Iraq war) as proof that Saddam had reconstituted his WMD program (given what was said in the the quotes in my previous post).

However, you say that you have "reliable sources" that give you "reason to believe that more than just a few old munitions were found". Can you elaborate on that as well as your sources? Are you saying that David Kay and the Defense Department official (quoted earlier) are wrong in their assessments? If so, why?

Also, where did you read/hear about the young French couple that ignored the warning markers? Can you provide more info? (links if possible)

Huh? Did someone in this thread write that they think it's all about whether a few politicians get elected? (you were the first to bring up the November elections... I only mentioned them in response to you) Is someone here ignoring the Tokyo subway bombers? (were they even mentioned in this thread?) Did someone write in this thread that maybe it wasn't a plane that hit the Pentagon?

It doesn't bother me that you started with the politics (back on post #14), but at some point the mods are probably going to stop this dialog.

Winfree

Yup, Yup hybrids good, gobal warming bad, yup yup -
(OK back to the events that shape the price of gas.....)

I don't know much about Kay - I got 'war stores' on him, that mostly he was interested in atomic programs - and atomics were not what I was interested in having him find! He apparently remained as much as possible in a safe areas, reviewed field reports or, under heavy escorts, visited some areas that had been trashed and cleaned, and he returned earlier than expected, and refused to go back. His early transcripts are interesting, as they were initially, not political. He became an activist wandered around giving political view points and that gave me concerns about the data.

I was far more interested in the research being conducted on eggs (this is where you can grow some very interesting viruses) and also work that involved the Hoof and Mouth Disease centers. Hoof and mouth has a funny name, but it is a form of conjunctivitis and that means that some of the researchers there were very very good with some very interesting viruses. We just couldn't get any information, from him, on these sites. Just for fun google: Saddam, hemorrhagic conjunctivitis.

Will try to find stuff on French Couple -

Yup Yup Co2 bad, Ozone good Yup Yup

alfy28

Prez Bush does not like ppl who drive 8's. btw Jon Stewart for Prez

ALP22

Now, if only they could make the 8 run on crushes roaches, then we'd all be OK driving around in the post-apocalyptic chaos.

Just to mix it up some more, and given that this is the 50th anniversary of the Eisenhower interstate system, some of you might like to comment on the probability that a lot of our current problems are bought about by suburban development run amok. The interstate system is now being used for something it was never intended for - i.e. getting into the city, rather than getting from one city to another. By encouraging people to drive 20 miles each way to work and back, and providing no infrastructure like public transport, local amenities etc., no matter how many MPG you hybrid/hhydrogen car gets, we're gonna be in the same hole 50 years from now when they discover that hydrogen is carcinogenic, or hybrid batteries deplete the ozone, or something like that. It's just moving the problem along.

There needs to be a major shift in planning/zoning policies, so that instead of driving to work, we can all walk or cycle, and get groceries just around the corner, like in most of the rest of the developed world. You'd be amazed how many immigrants to this country from Europe (I know lots of them, because I'm one too) just turn around and go home when they realize they can't survive here without owning a car. Only in a few big cities is it possible to live car-free. We also need to address the issue of over-population, but that's for another discussion. Bottom line - hybrid/hydrogen/E85/whatever is just shirking the issue. We need a major change in the way the country/planet is organized, otherwise global warming is the least of our worries.

Animagix

RX8 hybrid will have civic Si's mileage with just about the same power to the wheels, and for 10 grand over the current 8.

Deslock

I appreciate your stories. However, other than stating that you'll try to find stuff on the French couple, you didn't answer any of my questions.

Deslock

I was in Europe ~6 years ago and I was impressed with how their roads, paths, and sidewalks were laid out. Even in rural areas of Denmark, there were bike paths following the roads in the middle of nowhere going between the towns.

In Munich, Germany, the roads had four separate lanes for driving, parking, biking, and walking. In some cases there were additional lanes for trolleys and/or buses.

Taking dogs, bikes, etc on public transit is no problem in Europe (over here there are usually strict policies prohibiting taking large objects and dogs inside buses and trains). Only recently have we seen some leeway for bikes because of bike racks being installed on the front of buses... and that was met with stiff resistance from many people in this country. As are most bike paths (which usually end up being embraced and more popular than anyone envisioned, yet they're constantly voted down).

Even some of the more recent development in my town lacks sidewalks, never mind a path for bikes. Three cheers for short-sighted thinking!

Sephiroth

Well said ALP22. Even in Asia people are much more accustomed to travel by foot, on bikes, or public transportation.

saturn

It's not short-sighted thinking -- it's the unavoidable phenomenon of the American fascination with automobiles. We have been that way since their inception. Our entire country was founded upon people trying to get away and be adventurous. Hence the manifest destiny and pioneer mentality. We're not as city-oriented as Europe and our history has been predicated upon that. On the whole, we don't want to give up the autonomy that an automobile gives us even if we could.

Our only step forward is to continue to make automobiles more efficient, more affordable, and safer for the environment. This country will never, ever give up their automobiles.

Deslock

I never advocated giving up cars. Sure, the automobile is ingrained in our culture more than most Europeans' for many reasons. However, oftentimes there's also no reason not to build streets and intersections so that pedestrians and bicyclists can also travel safely. That still happens in my rural town and happens in many cities in the USA (even those ones that have been expanded in the last 50 years). It doesn't need to be that way.

I get your point, but I think it's a bit of stretch to frame the argument as a dramatic clash between sidewalks and "America's pioneering/adventurous mentality".

saturn

Yes, but keep in mind when you walk on sidewalks if you step on a crack, you'll break your mother's back.

icyur2

Winfree, you DA man!!! Agree 110%!!!! Granted, kind of off the topic, but nevertheless, recognize that what you are pointing out about the initial thread (propaganda material for LOSER Gore, aka internet founder)...

Global warming is suddenly a big topic before the November election..geez..wonder why? My GOD, it is Gore and his kind-hearted after-thought of what we "humans" are doing to the world and how HE, our savior will come back and rescue us from our own destruction....give me a freaking break!!! People who watch his propaganda BS, and believe it...scary people indeed...it is like watching that Moore crap so-called "documentary." The is only one agenda folks, and it isn't because they suddenly cared about global warming and what-not...it is all a game to get re-elected, or in this case, elected to the most powerful seat in our government..so..when Winfree pointed out about all of the other stuff, yeah..might be off the subject, but in content, he is shooting down this propaganda BS for what it is...

BTW, did he (Gore) ever mention that the scientific community does not agree to what he is proclaiming? Only a few of his selected and likely paid scientist is "backing" up his so call "fact." Just my 2 cents....

alfy28

i couldnt find alot of info ont his car, then what has been posted in the past here about this vechile.

DETROIT – With a cat-like predatory stance, forward-thinking freestyle door system and enough room for four, not two, adults to enjoy all its benefits, the Mazda RX-8 has set itself apart from the pack. But if the recently introduced RX-8 production sports car truly is unique thanks, in large part, to its rotary engine, the RX-8 Hydrogen Rotary Engine (RE) concept, showcased this year at the North American International Auto Show (NAIAS), takes "unique" to all new levels.

Featuring a fuel system that consists of a high-pressure hydrogen tank, the vehicle balances the needs of the driving enthusiast and the environmentalist with a blend of alternative power and the exhilarating driving experience for which Mazda is known.

As the auto industry turns its attention to hydrogen fuel as a gasoline alternative, the RX-8 Hydrogen RE offers a hydrogen-powered version of RENESIS—Mazda’s next generation rotary engine that was introduced last year in the all-new RX-8. By virtue of its smooth performance, compact size and impressive driving characteristics, RENESIS was named International Engine of the Year in June 2003.

The RENESIS Hydrogen RE allows the RX-8 concept to run on either hydrogen fuel or gasoline and capitalizes on all the advantages of the rotary to assure RX-8’s ease-of-operation and reliability.

The RENESIS Hydrogen RE incorporates an electronically controlled hydrogen injector system, with the hydrogen injected in a gaseous state. The system draws air from the side port during the intake cycle and uses dual hydrogen injectors in each of the engine’s twin rotor housings to directly inject hydrogen into the intake chambers.

Because it offers separate chambers for intake and combustion, the rotary engine is ideal for burning hydrogen without the backfiring that can occur in a traditional piston engine. The separate induction chamber also provides a safer temperature for fitting the dual hydrogen injectors with their rubber seals, which are susceptible to the high temperatures encountered in a conventional reciprocating piston engine.

Also helping to maximize the benefits of the rotary engine in hydrogen combustion mode, the RENESIS Hydrogen RE features adequate space for the installation of two injectors per intake chamber. Because hydrogen has an extremely low density, a much greater injection volume is required compared with gasoline, thus demanding the use of more than one injector. Typically, this can be difficult to achieve with a conventional reciprocating piston engine because of the structural constraints that prevent mounting injectors in the combustion chamber. However, with its twin hydrogen injectors, the RENESIS Hydrogen RE is both practical and able to deliver sufficient power.

In addition to the revolutionary hydrogen-powered RENESIS rotary engine, the Mazda RX-8 Hydrogen RE concept benefits from improved aerodynamics and optimized tires and weight-saving measures. A fast-fill tandem master cylinder reduces brake drag and friction hub carriers help cut power losses.

The vehicle also incorporates a host of other technologies for exceptional environmental compatibility. Three-layer, wet-on water-based paint on the RX-8 Hydrogen RE dramatically reduces the emission of organic solvents, saves energy by shortening the drying process and reduces carbon dioxide emissions. Moreover, the plant-based plastics used for the vehicle’s interior parts provide an attractive alternative to plastics derived from fossil fuels such as petroleum.

The Mazda RX-8 Hydrogen RE illustrates Mazda’s dedication to the future environment without abandoning true Zoom-Zoom and soul-of-a-sports-car thinking.

Mazda North American Operations is responsible for the sales and marketing, customer parts and services support of Mazda vehicles in the United States. Headquartered in Irvine, Calif., MNAO has more than 700 dealerships nationwide.

Winfree

[QUOTE=alfy28]iThe RENESIS Hydrogen RE allows the RX-8 concept to run on either hydrogen fuel or gasoline and capitalizes on all the advantages of the rotary to assure RX-8’s ease-of-operation and reliability.QUOTE]

Yes!!!!! - now how do we convert our old 8s???

Winfree

Sorry could not get back to you - the 8 was getting repaired, public transportation was limited so I had to overnight in SLO, until repairs complete (mouse ate wires) car returned to excellent state, blessings on AllState Insurance and Valley Mazda.

Here are sources on longevity of mustard - still active after 90 years!!!!

http://www.medscape.com/medline/abst...emed_ckb_ref_0
http://www.answers.com/topic/iron-harvest
http://www.thebulletin.org/article.p...ofn=so01tucker
http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/eu...ion/index.html
iraqnow.blogspot.com/2006/06/500-chemical-weapons-found-in-iraq.html - 26k
gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/06/those-dated-wmd-shells-are-still.html -

These are listed in order of being 1. non-political and 2. accurate or measured as apposed to mere opinion. Could not get a computerized report on French couple as it happened before French News services were posting on internet. But did find other sources who had heard, read or knew of it (but these tended to be political and therefore of limited value). I was surprised the French did not do more with the story as it had all the elements of a French Farce - the spouses are called to the hospital. sit in waiting, room, talk, are surprised and sympathetic that both are waiting for someone with a similar injury, and then slowly put two and two together and discover they have a lot more in common!


Meanwhile - early discussions - bicycles good as long as no snow, rain, wind, temperatures over 85, or flat tires. Public Transportation - good in big metro area - a lost cause outside a major city - and we still have hitching racks for horses at the little grocery store in San Miguel

Recycling cooking oils or oil from organic sources - might be better used to fuel hydrogen separation systems and create hydrogen fuel. Solar also good for this - Ideal would be a solar panel system in everyones home or apartment group that would be used to generate hydrogen fuel. Panel expert here says a single family house roof in this area could fill a tank a day - but not good in Eastern U.S. Especially during long winters - the ground hog doesn't see his shadow often enough

daisuke

problem with making hydrogen is keeping it around after you've made it, I don't know of any affordable tanks that you can keep it in where it won't all leak out right quick, basically wasting your power spent.

wouldn't it take you about 4 hours to get to the store in san miguel on horseback? hehe

Winfree

7 hours by goat cart! But we actually see horses hitched out there - and the old Harris stage line still works on festive occassions, but I do not recommend them during bad weather. Rickshaws also very useful, not enough snow for Dog Sled - hard to find 5 nubble young men to carry me around on a pallet (the 5th one is the spare tire) - When I got stuck in SLO, I did some heavy thinking about the limits of public transportation - Yes I could see a hybrid - and also some more drilling up around Bradley. Wish we had oil traces on the 20 acres - would love my own well! (And we may need one if the cost of crude continues upward like it did today).

Deslock

Your first link didn't work, but I read the rest (and the related links on the pages). That stuff backs up that left-over munitions are dangerous and that every precaution should be taken (which was never in dispute... see my previous posts). However, none of those pages you linked to address any of my questions, which were:

From post #52:

1. in that context, isn't it relevant to ask about the potency of abandoned Sarin?
2. you mentioned November elections... you don't think that Santarum (down 18% in the polls) propped up these degraded and militarily unusable weapons for political purposes?

As to the first one, again, there's no doubt as to whether buried, degraded munitions are dangerous at all (obviously - as your links mentioned - clean up crews need to take precautions). But keeping in mind the context of the quotes I cited in post #52, why isn't it reasonable to ask about how militarily usable the left-over munitions were? As to the second one, I also followed up on it with #4 below.

From post #55:

1. you say that you have "reliable sources" that give you "reason to believe that more than just a few old munitions were found". Can you elaborate on that as well as your sources?
2. Are you saying that David Kay and the Defense Department official (quoted earlier) are wrong in their assessments? If so, why?
3. where did you read/hear about the young French couple that ignored the warning markers? Can you provide more info? (links if possible)
4. Did someone in this thread write that they think it's all about whether a few politicians get elected? (you were the first to bring up the November elections... I only mentioned them in response to you)
5. Is someone here ignoring the Tokyo subway bombers? (were they even mentioned in this thread?)
6. Did someone write in this thread that maybe it wasn't a plane that hit the Pentagon?

Those were all responses to things you wrote. You mentioned that you were unable to find any links on the French couple. Where did you initially read/hear about them?

In addition, you wrote about David Kay:
What are these war stories and where did you get them?
That casts him as overly cautious if not cowardly. Where did you find all that out and can you elaborate on it?
What did he say exactly that gave you concerns about the data?

You've taken the time to make a lot of strong statements... I hope you don't mind providing some details to support those statements. Thanks!

Winfree

#1. Medline source on most recent experience with 'old mustard' - nonpolitical Posted only because you said you could not find page - medline/abstract/8207150)

{Quote} A serious skin sulfur mustard burn from an artillery shell.
Medscape Newsletters

J Emerg Med. ; 12(2):159-66 (ISSN: 0736-4679)
Ruhl CM; Park SJ; Danisa O; Morgan RF; Papirmeister B; Sidell FR; Edlich RF; Anthony LS; Himel HN
Department of Plastic Surgery, University of Virginia School of Medicine, Charlottesville 22908.

Despite the Geneva Protocol of 1925 and the Paris Conference on Prohibition of Chemical Weapons in 1989, sulfur mustard and other chemical weapons continue to pose a hazard to both civilians and soldiers. The presence of artillery shells containing sulfur mustard, both in waters where these shells were dumped and in old battlefields, presents a problem in times of peace, especially for those who collect wartime memorabilia. Past literature has reported several hundred incidents involving fishermen who inadvertently pulled leaking shells aboard their fishing vessels, thereby exposing themselves to the vesicant chemical. Other literature reports exposure to children who found the chemical shells in old battlefields. The purpose of this article is to report the first case of a serious sulfur mustard burn that occurred after removing the detonator from an old artillery shell in a historic battle field near Verdun, France. The circumstances surrounding the injury, the diagnosis and management of injuries secondary to sulfur mustard, and the long-term consequences to the patient are presented and discussed. Although skin grafting has been used in the management of other chemical burn injuries, this report is the first to describe the need for split-thickness skin grafts in the management of a patient with sulfur mustard burns. {Quote}

#2. Potency of abandoned Sarin: I do not have good data on longevity due to incomplete data on the initial purity of chemicals, both mixed and in binary form and any carrier solutions - types of oil, or other carriers (for example, a thick oil or grease allows greater survival. A cooler temperature allowa longer survival so a cannistar of unmixed products, in an oil base, in a bunker would outlive a mixed sarin spray on a hot desert surface. Sarin is usually packed as two separate long lived chemical mixes which are combined at the time of use, because they can survive much longer apart than when combined in the sarin mix. The two American Soldiers, for whom I provided advice, concerning treatment, had a fairly mild dose (not immediately lethal) because the improvised explosive device did not allow the proper mixing that should have occured if it had been delivered as a munition. Yet, even at very low dose, I was concerned with long term "nerve die back" problems, and problems with neurotransmitter pathways that result in nightmares and sleep disorders.

#3. I heard (was briefed on it) and read the medical reports about the French Couple about the time the incident happened about 20 years ago - I was interested in the cellular damage taking place rather than their love affair - it turned out that your cells are held together with a kind of a knot of connective fibers - cellular skeleton - these hold cells together outside and form an anchor for structures inside the cells. The blister agent effects these binding sites and when the cells begin to divide or use their DNA, the lack of anchoring causes disruptions, cell death, or injury, histamine release and fluid build up causing the blister itself.


#4. War stories - people talk! Kay was not a isolated man! He was not a lone figure out there. People talk about what they do and what they know - You can find a lot of the information in Kays own reports, and many were even published on the internet. People talk about all sorts of things -

Let me give you two non-political examples:
I have a friend who worked on thyroid glands in dairy cows in Sweden - so what could a guy like that ever tell you? Well, one day my friend was testing some cows, injecting radioactive compounds to track their metabolism. He took samples of his hot cows and then he took samples of un-injected control cows. But the control cows were also hot! He thought "My technican has really made a mistake - injected the wrong cows!". So he goes to a neighboring dairy and borrows one of their cows - but that cow is 'hot'! and no, the technician hadn't been there! So he figures it spillage from an atomic power plant. So he calls the nearest one and asks about a spill. No spill - but the power plant gets all upset because there is a lot of hot stuff lying around. They find out its blowing from over the border - coming from Russia - this is how Chernoble was first spotted! And the Russian President is visiting with the Swedes - so the Swedes ask him and he doesn't even know about it - so who knew about it first - a bunch of nobody biologists, some guys at a power plant, and some people who track weather, clouds, and industrial smoke -
OK so we are tracking smallpox - got a friend who is an Archeologist interested in Sythian (sp?) Graves which remain forzen in Tundra. One day he spots some people digging up some graves in nearby Russia - he is interested - turns out its a group scienists interested in people killed by a smallpox outbreak so they are harvesting bodies - no big whoop- he tells me because he just thought I might be interested. I get to submit a question to Ken Alibek about it and he tells us the rest. But before we could talk this former head of Russian Biowarfare, we had an tiny notion it might be worth asking about...

OK back to Iraq - if you wanted to know something, you talk to people who are out there looking for all kinds of stuff - people who work in water treatment, and sewers, fishermen (very interesting fish kills), guards, military public health personnel, EOD bomb and munitions hunters. Forget reporters - they usually are saying things like "Are we there yet", and "how did you feel" - ask the guys who are actually there!
Now, before I blissfully retired, I wore a couple of different hats - I wore a Public Health hat, while I was serving with Uncle Sugar's Flying Circus - this meant that I talked to people both coming and going about what kind of exposures they had. We were interested in things like fuels, solvents, paints, bug sprays - the normal hazards of daily life. Sometimes people would talk about exposures to surprising things. Things that we had been told were not there. When they were really really interesting you forward this on to your commander or the OSI and they do the rest - It's all taken care of properly and through proper channels. But that is a world away from what the politicians are saying. Meanwhile, in the civilian world, the rest of the time I had my biology hat on - I made detectors and antidotes for interesting things. So, we needed to know what was out there so we could have a detector all ready before it was needed. Sometimes you, personally, have to go and look at things. Some times you can just talk to other people, and sometimes, rarely, you can find it posted on the internet. When I say a good source I mean it was someone I could trust, who had been where they could see something - often by accident, like my thyroid friend, or my military contacts. Yes, I can name names but short of a Congressional inquiry, (and even then with the proper release of a patient's data) there is no legal, ethical, or moral way some sources can be released. If you really want to know whats going on in the world - join the Army or Air Guard!

Right now the Isrealis are in some areas of great interest. We have heard stories and seen satillite images of things buried, by Syria, in the desert. Perhaps the Isrealis will find that something - I will sleep a lot better if they do...

Paul_in_DC

With all due respect to your non-political example, that isn't even close to how the world found out about Chernobyl.

However, I remember hearing additional reports of the ongoing problem of WWI munitions in France and Belgium. I understand it's particularly dangerous for farmers. Repeated winter/summer thaws & freezes have in many cases pushed old munitions closer to the surface, where they have been triggered by some poor guy plowing his field. In some high-concentration areas, some farmers have even taken to plowing their fields using remote control devices.

Winfree

Hi D.C. at least you had heard about the old munitions problems in France -

Chernoble: didn't say that was how the world found out - the world including the Russian President found out after the fact, in some case weeks later, as the news slowly oozed to the surface while the fallout was shifting with the winds. Would be very interested in how you (or the world) first learned of it...

I did not however, give full data on the Sarin question, and I think I can come a little closer to answering how long it can linger by using the open non-political (or at least pre-incident) postings,

First - We can look at pestiide longevity. Sarin is an organophosphate orginally intended to be used as a pesticide. It a little stronger and more lingering than your standard bug killer - but we can use other related insecticides as models. The address to that was a little messy, so I can only submit an abstract that suggests that even mild organophosphates may linger longer than farmers might like.

Second -We can also look at our own (U.S.) sarin stockpiles - which we are trying to get rid of - This material has not been manufactured since the 70s so you can check out these threads and find out that this 30 year old stuff can still be active and causes problems.

Third - Here an address on Iraqi sarin and their own problems with it. You don't have to be actively making sarin, you just need to make the parts, which have multiple uses and therefore are hard to forbid, and also you don't need to make new batches if it lasts long enough - for example the U.S. has more nerve agent than we want, but we haven't had to make any for 30 years!


Sources - you may need to wade through them as some are long but will be worth the effort:

darwin.nap.edu/books/0309084059/html/6.html
http://www.mindfully.org/Air/Sarin-V...n-Kentucky.htm
http://www.gulfweb.org/bigdoc/report/appgb.html

Abstract on pesticide longevity:

Environmental fate and toxicology of organophosphate pesticides
Author: RAGNARSDOTTIR K.V.1
Source: Journal of the Geological Society, Volume 157, Number 4, July 2000, pp. 859-876(18)
Publisher: Geological Society Publishing House
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Abstract:
Organophosphate pesticides (OPs) are generally regarded as safe for use on crops and animals due to their relatively fast degradation rates. Their degradation varies as a function of microbial composition, pH, temperature, and availability of sunlight. Under laboratory conditions (25°C and pH 7) biodegradation is about one order of magnitude faster than chemical hydrolysis, which in turn is roughly ten times faster than photolysis. Microbial biomass often needs a lengthy adaptation period in which soil bacteria mutate to be able to metabolize OPs. Biodegradation is thus in general an order of magnitude faster in soils that have had repeated applications of OPs compared to control soils which have never had OP applications. Because OPs are relatively soluble, they often enter surface and groundwaters. In the latter OPs are primarily broken down through chemical hydrolysis, which is pH dependent. Hydrolysis half-life of an OP pesticide of 10 days in the laboratory increases to one year if the pH of the water is 6 and the temperature 5°C, suggesting that OPs can persist in the environment for long periods of time. Indeed, OPs are detected in soils years after application. Why this environmental persistence occurs is not clear, but it may be due to sorption of the OPs to soil particles, making them unavailable for microbial metabolism. Example calculations and literature data show that conditions can occur in soil where OPs are preserved and transferred to humans through food. A review of the literature shows that OPs are highly toxic and that human exposure is undesirable. Evidence suggests that OPs are mutagenic and teratogenic and that a large number of modern-day diseases of the nervous and immune system of mammals can be linked to these pesticides. These include BSE (mad cows disease), CJD, Gulf War syndrome, Parkinson's disease and multiple sclerosis, arguing for a thorough examination of the environmental fate and toxicology of OPs as well as their use.
Language: English
Document Type: Research article
Affiliations: 1: Department of Earth Sciences, University of Bristol, Bristol BS8 1RJ, UK (e-mail: Vala.Ragnarsdottir@bris.ac.uk)
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