Quick_lude

Damn my head hurts now.. Btw, I wasn't trying to make a very detailed argument, correct to every .5% point.. :D Merely trying to point out that the torque curve on the S2000 is flat and that .. oh how about 85% torque is produced from 2500 to 8500rpm.. at least per that dyno graph.. Not trying to split hairs here but I do appreciate your detailed argument. That said I think I'd still pick the S over a convertible Vette.. The Vette just does not get away from it's Chevy heritage.. mainly the interior.. yuck.. Then again I can't remember the last time I liked any interior in a domestic. Olds Aurora maybe??

To get back on topic, how much drivetrain loss is there in rotary engines? 10, 15, 20%?

zoom44

i believe mazda has stated that the shaft is all crbon fiber or some such material, not just reinforced. someone correct me if im wrong.

Sputnik

How much do you wanna bet that the Z car that made the rounds to people like SCC had a strong engine? If I remember correctly, they also made one or two of those runs on race gas.

---jps

droidekaus

Then they must have made them all like that (the press cars) and f'ed the buyers on production models. At one point, there were about a dozen press cars floating around the States before the launch. Only ONE guy that I know of has duplicated the SCC dyno numbers on a production car on 93 octane. The other half dozen or so plots I've seen are all hitting in the 230 RWHP area. It's hard to get the Z owners to focus on a possible horsepower rip-off when other things are going wrong at the time, namely tranny replacements.

droidekaus

From the Mazda Web site:
One-Piece, Carbon-Fiber Propeller Shaft
Even with a 106.3-inch wheelbase (more than a foot longer than the Porsche 911 Carrera's wheelbase) the RX-8's front-midship layout drastically shortens the distance from the gearbox to the differential. This allowed engineers to install a one-piece propeller shaft made of carbon fiber, which further reduced weight.

Holy sh*t! I stand corrected. Is Mazda doing everything Nissan was supposed to deliver in the Z and doing it right? There's no replacement for torque, IMO, but dammit if I'm not even more interested in this car now.

zoom44

in a word- YES! and may the force be with you:D

BryanH

Let us hope. Maybe it's just me but I'm hearing about too many weak spots on new cars lately. M3s blowing engines, WRXs and 350Zs munching trannies, and MR2 Spyders burning oil and blowing engines. Seems like cars today, even from highly-thought-of manufacturers, are engineered just "good enough", instead of being overbuilt like the Japanese sports cars of the 80s/90s.

I hope Mazda can come through not only on reliability of the RX-8, but toughness and durability of its components as well.

droidekaus

I feel sorry for you guys placing an order for an 8, getting all excited as the wait draws to a close only to have to deal with a Mazda dealer. I'll bet real money right now that Mazda dealers will turn out to be just as scummy and asinine as the Nissan dealers. That's the problem with buying a cool car from a middle tier manufacturer like Mazda, Nissan, Toyota who's dealerships are in the business of moving $20K sedans to the moronic masses.

I thought buying the most expensive car on my dealer's lot would make a difference. Man, was I ever f'ing wrong.

Quick_lude

Sadly that seems to be the case with Honda dealers too.. These guys think that the cars are infallible and treat you like **** when you come in with a problem..

rpm_pwr

A few random thoughts....

I think we can all agree that the s2000 torque curve has a nasty plummet around 4500rpm. It's this vacuum of torque (and hence power) that feels like the car is struggling. The kick just past 6grand is just a cruel reminder of what you were missing out on.

Any of the FD guys on here who have boosted the turbos in sequential mode know what I'm talking about. The car feels like it's gagging to get the next turbo online. The fact that you are still making a truckload of power from 4000 to 4500 doesnt take away from the fact that the car is waiting to pounce. When it does you feel like the car was lacking down low. It really wasnt (400+Nm to the wheels on primary only for me!) it's just that the sudden arrival of EVEN MORE torque puts it into perspective.

As for Z dyno figures - ring-ins are nothing new for the performance car world. When the Subaru WRX was brought to OZ, some test versions were packing over 17psi of boost (this is back in the early 90's mind you!) This gave some magazine times as low as 13.0 for the 1/4 and 5.2 for 0-60!

While I'm on random thoughts - Every Ford Escort Cosworth in Norway has been stolen at least once. In the UK it's 92%.
-pete

Sputnik

Do you really think that there is a HP defecit? 20% drivetrain loss from 287hp at the flywheel pretty much comes to 230hp at the rear wheels.

---jps

MikeW

The Z has a direct 5th gear (1:1), power isn't transmitted via a gear mesh. BMW has that in its 3-series, ususally they dyno around 90% transmitted power. So if Nissan was only 85% 230hp/0.85=270 hp.

I believe that the Z only has 275 hp

PaulieWalnuts

Hi all,

Hard choice. Both nice rides.

When I had a two-seater, I also bought a more practical four-door car for trips, work, etc., because having only a two-seater is a PITA. So, for me, the RX-8 is a better all around ride. Seats four, fits golf bags and luggage, etc. It's more of a, uh, a Utility Sport Vehicle (USV) I dunno about your situation.

And nothing against Nissan and Z owners, but the Z series doesn't seem to age as well as the RX's. The 80's Z looks really dated, and the 90's Z is showing its age.

Also, there's nothing more mesmerizing than driving a rotary engine'd car.

PW

Sputnik

Yabbutt, you don't normally dyno in fifth gear, do you?

---jps

Grimace

Usually you dyno in whatever gear is closest to 1:1.

Quick_lude

Which usually is 3rd or 4th gear? Why would a 5th gear be 1:1? Shouldn't it be the overdrive gear?

droidekaus

Not in a six-speed tranny.

ToRX-8orToZ

I have a relative who happens to be an exec for NNA. The Z will be over 300 HP within the next few years, the only thing keeping it under 300 currently is the fact that Nissan could not afford for the Z to have any major problems at launch, so they programed the engine at a conservative level; this will also allow them to add HP through the next couple of years.


If anyone cares... I'm about 70% sure I'm gonna go for the 8. Its the seats and the doors.... too damn functional to pass up on.

Sputnik

If that actually is the case, then it would be relatively easy for Nissan to program the car(s) they send out for press evaluation for a little more power (some radar detector companies do that all the time, which is why the good testers go and by them from retail sources to get an accurate assessment).

It also means that a "chip" type mod could unlock a bit of that HP too. But that's if the "conservative" tuning doesn't include cams or such.

---jps

Quick_lude

I understand that but I've seen 6 speed trannies where both 5th and 6th gears are overdrive..

Hercules

*nod* but the RX-8 maxes power at 7500... 9k redline... so I think you'll make use of that 6th gear

Buger

Hi Quick_lude,

I've seen at least 2 of them. Of course you know that one of them is the s2000 which has:

5th gear: .971:1
6th gear: .811:1

In the context of this discussion, 5th gear would still be the closest to 1:1.

I was surprised when I first found out that some trannies didn't have a 1:1 gear. If it means less drivetrain losses, what reason could there be to do this? I'm no expert on this stuff but there would have to be some sort of practical reason.

Whatever the case, assuming the rx-8 will have a 4:1 rear diff and a 5th gear of 1:1 (or very close to that), 6th gear will be geared strictly for fuel economy and the top end in 6th gear will probably be less than 140mph (way under 7500 rpms).

MikeW

The Audi A6 2.7tt V6 has an overdriven 4,5, and 6th gear.

Isn't maximum power roughly 250 hp @ 8500, Euro 237 hp @ 8200.

HiWin

I know what your going through ToRX. I'm also on the fence in terms of getting a 350Z or a RX-8. I like the power and nastalgia (SP?) of the 350Z. I had a thing for the Nissan 300Z in the past. Price wise I think the RX-8 is a little less expensive but not by much, based on what was quoted on this forum, so that's a plus for the RX-8. I used to own a 95 BMW M3 and loved it for a while until the insurance and expense of owning a BMW (maybe it's me or I bought a lemon but...) slowly caught up to me. I guess it's the four doors versus two door insurance price for me also. In addition space is a factor, I used to drive a single cab truck and found that after a while, I have so much stuff in the cab that it's a one seater so the four doors and seats are really appealing. I can see that if I own a Z, I'll will only be the one in the car. The power on the RX-8 is a little more than the 95 BMW M3 that I used to own and that was plenty of power for me so the HP debate between the 350Z and RX-8 doesn't really affect me. I'm married now so I'm thinking about the future which makes the four doors, seat, and insurance comes out to what I'm looking for. I think the RX-8 is a nice compromise for power and afforadability (insurance, convenience, and hauling the wife and kid (distant future)) So, I'm also 80% toward the RX-8.

Alienate

Hailz!

Just thought I'd drop by and say HI! I remember threads like this 3 or 4 months ago... I had the same problem... Which car... One was the RX8... the other is NOT the ugly, plasticy thing I recently sat in at my Nissan Dealer's showroom.
Nope, I have made up my mind and should be running around in a 2003 Mitsu Evolution within 60 days. Dealers are now taking deposits on them.. as they got their actual allocations Monday. FOUR Doors and 273HP/271T.

I can not.. will not, wait till next summer to start having some Fun!


Happy Trails to you all!

N8