pistonhater

So what do you do in long trips on the Interstate?

I mean, there's no way I'll be driving 3-5 hours on the interstate, for example, constantly shifting RPM ranges!!!

Sort of discouraging to hear that's not good for the renesis.

At times I cruise at 75mph, which i believe puts the RPM range around 3.8-4K

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

There is nothing wrong with using cruise control to maintain a certain speed.


I have 91,xxx miles on my 8, still on original engine, bought it at 8,600 miles 4 years 1 month ago, and since I only average ~7,000 miles a year for in-state commuting and store runs, the other ~56,000 miles have all been long trips. 8,330 miles around the country last year, ~50 RI<->MD trips, several other business trips around the north east. I use cruise control pretty much all the time.


But then again, after filling up at a rest stop, I usually go WOT to redline up the ramps to rejoin the highway.


Variety is key, but that doesn't mean 50/50 either. There is a certain level of what makes sense, and feeling the engine and the car and how it's reacting and adjusting your driving inputs accordingly. It's more passion and communication than it is logic and math.

Relax and drive.

pistonhater

Thanks a lot! I was really getting worried about the whole issue with using cruise control.

What you say makes sense, and I hope to have similar results with my engine.

I usually push the car several times each time I drive to the higher RPM level. I don't always bring it all the way to redline, but certainly past 8K RPMs - although that "beeep" sound after 9K is certainly cool.

BTW, sounds like you have enjoyed driving your car!!

Zahir

After reading all about revving till redline, here is what I get...

1. Redline every day - not sure if it makes any difference if you get to redline parked, in 1st gear (one guy does this), in 2nd Gear (many others do this), 3rd or 4th or 5th.

2. Redline ocassionally. Some do it once a week.

3. Don't have go redline but at least get to 7K.

The question is/was whether it is necessary at all and why the Manual does not say anything about revving as a requirement to maintain a long life for the engine.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I certainly have.

Out of a bit of curiosity, I counted the number of times I hit the beep on the 13 mile 17 minute drive home from work just a bit ago, without changing my habits to specifically hit it.

9 times.

I use more gas than most doing this, but it costs less than my wife's regular entertainment, so the cost isn't too hard to bear. I still can sit back and get 22mpg any time.

1: "every day" is subjective. What is sufficient really depends on what kind of driving you already do. If you only drive it on weekends to the golf course, it doesn't make nearly as much sense, or if you do 200+ miles per day of highway commuting, etc... My redline excursions aren't "for carbon clearing". I do them out of habit, out of fun, out of enjoyment. Knowing I'm not hurting the engine and actually helping it is a plus.

Every single autocross day though, I notice that the engine is much smoother and happier on the drive home than the drive there (50 minutes each way)

in neutral or with the clutch in isn't doing a damn thing though.

2: see above

3: yes. But redline is funner, and as long as you don't give yourself heat problems, there isn't any harm to it.


Necessary? Yes. I believe it is.

Why doesn't the manual state it? Could be a variety of reasons, including ones that have nothing to do with engineering or mechanical knowledge. Things like the legal issues with a corporation telling people to go full throttle at all, in any gear.

I know my company (top Fortune 30) would be terrified to death of making that kind of suggestion from a pure liability perspective. They are even scared of the liability if they begin tracking their own distribution trailers with GPS, being sued for invasion of privacy.



Note, the manual also doesn't mention coils for preventative or scheduled maintenance, but it is accepted fact that they can't be ignored. Manuals give you a good starting point, but if you take everything it says as the only possible fact in existence, you are in for a rough time. This is true of ANY car. Ours is just more quirky than most, and has a greater penalty for ignoring it.

pistonhater

I guess you are getting far more beeps than I do on a regular basis But to me it is just fun, and I don't really care about fuel efficiency at that point.

And yes, our toys with rotary engines are far less expensive than any woman's entertainment!!

talle232008

So, over the course of the past few days I have redlined with mine which is 04 GT AT (using paddle shifters) and honestly the car even idling seems to be smoother after a good red run! As the fellas mention before treat the car how it makes sense to you. But FYI your missing out!!!!

Crotalus

I have seen a lot of people on here talking about fear of losing their engine. I've been driving Mazda rotaries since 1973. I drove them all hard. The only time I lost and engine was when I blew off a radiator hose on the highway. The engine still ran fine but warping made it burn a quart of oil every 50 miles. This was on my RX4. Over temp will kill the engine worse than completely running it out of oil, but that's another story.

Redlining? Hard driving? The car will take it.

I think a lot of the fears people have is from reading this blog. I had 158,000 on my 05 when I traded it. I had issues, but they had nothing to do with seals. When I let my wife borrow it she flooded it twice. I would lose power after 30 miles but that turned out to be ignition coils. I had the devil of a time keeping the engine temp down when stuck in traffic on 110 degrees days and I never did get that fixed but I suspect flat oil coolers had a lot to do with it. The mechanic always tried to blame problems on the fact that my compression was down to 75, but when I said BS he usually found something else that turned out to be the real problem. The car ALWAYS started right up and I was still getting 19 mpg. I didn't treat it special. I went 7k between oil changes and used 5W20. I had never even heard of premix. I had 185,000 on my 83 RX7 and it was still running great when I traded it off.

You are the owner of a GREAT toy that will perform better than cars costing 5 times as much without adding ANY performance parts. So go out and have FUN.

pistonhater

No way!!!

MattC867

That sounds like a terrible idea for a renesis, but I'm glad to year you never had any problems.

A lot of this stuff is just preventative, done purely do reduce risk. Nobody is claiming they're magic techniques that you should follow or else suffer engine failure. We recognize that we represent a tiny fraction of all RX8 owners. Most owners simply follow factory maintenance guidelines and have engines that live happy lives.

I premix my gas for the same reason that people with hypertension take blood pressure medicine; because it lowers risk. Also, your story is anecdotal: I worked with a guy that was 76 and had been smoking since he was a young teenager and still had no major health problems, but that doesn't mean smoking isn't terrible for you. Similarly, if everyone with an RX8 waited 7,000 miles between oil changes there would likely have been even more engine failures. Also the oil system on the RX8 S1 renesis is, from what I understand, pretty different than previous rotary iterations. So direct comparisons to previous rotary cars are less convincing. Not to mention that fact that the Rensis has side ports.

Are-Ex-Eight

iTrader: (1)

I go 5k with synthetic adding half a quart every 1k or so.

7k so long as you keep topping up is not terrible.

Crotalus

I may be mistaken, but my manual stated 7K between oil changes on my 05. Almost all of the info on here is anecdotal, but don't get me wrong. I am doing 3K oil changes and premixing both on my 09.

It looks like premixing also has it's downside. (potential fuel pump clogging and CAT clogging) We just don't have enough hard data.

BigC94

When I bought my '04 MT it had 44k miles of light driving. The car ran rough but was in overall awesome condition so I bought it. This being my 3rd rotary i immediately started driving it like it is meant to be driven. In a couple of tanks of gas it started purring like a kitten again and the power band smoothed out. I give it love every day. I don't dog it out constantly but definately let it breath. 30k miles later I have had no issues and enjoy every drive.

On road trips, if I use the cruise for an entire tank of gas I can feel the difference in response. After a redline run on the onramp it is all back to normal.

Upkeep that works for me: oil changes every 3k mile, flush cooling system every fall, keep an eye on your spark plugs, keep fresh coils or upgrade to BHR ( which made a big difference for me) and most of all run decent gas.

MPG > HP

Yes, regular revving is mandatory for the reasons stated, above. I just can't believe (unless I missed it) that there was no mention of engine bogging being a killer. Rotory seals will snap on almost any instance of preignition (knocking). My rule of avoidance is to never use anything but partial throttle under 3k. This is my 5th RX- since '84, so I've seen a lot of damage behaviors with "conservative" habits being the worst for this motor design. Doesn't mean you can't cruise in 6th at 19MPH, just don't dare accellerate unless with the (knock detecting) cruise control or you have a really soft pedal foot and don't hit any bumps!

Btw, my '84 has 120k+ with the last 40k mostly on track, since retiring it for DD in favor of a Prius. Doesn't like extreme heat, but have run sucessfully (i.e., little power loss) in mid-summer at Buttonwillow, CA (mid desert) at 107F ambient and max 147F on the water gauge. Died above 12K feet going up Pikes Peak, but after waiting out flooding start (cpu/metering apparently unable to compensate for such thin air), made it to the top a couple times with no probs, keeping revs up. Last PSI check was off about 10lbs from spec, but the chambers weren't unbalanced on pressures. Plugs always even and clean with no carbon or signs of "burning". Recent trips to Willowsprings has shown major power loss at high temps, so don't rev to 10K (unless mechanical on downshifts) anymore, only 8K and an occasional 9.5K on upshifts, but hey, that's on every shift on every session! Since the car mostly sits waiting to be turned loose, I'll "force" myself to take it to work or freeway trips of more than 30 minutes, one way, to let the motor "size up" properly, before making a few (6?) blasts to red line. If sitting more than a couple weeks. I'll warm up for 20 min w/ A/C (for a touch of load) and heater at full blast (like at track to offload engine heat), while parked and rev slowly up and down through where the secondaries open, to keep them functioning properly and not get prone to sticking. HTH

Are-Ex-Eight

iTrader: (1)

DO NOT PREMIX a series II

Also 3k is overkill but it's your money and it won't hurt so why not.

We all have to remember that these cars were built for ordinary people and not just enthusiasts. The car was designed to withstand minor neglect and thrashing.

There will always be lemons and if it happens to a forum member you can be sure we will all hear about it at some point.

If you were not supposed to go to 9k rpms they would have moved the limiter down.

Are-Ex-Eight

iTrader: (1)

It's not good for any moving part to sit at one consistent speed unless you always want it at that speed.

The clearances will change such that there is a path of least resistance. Going hours on end on an interstate at a constant speed is bad for the engine. How bad...who knows. Probably negligible but physics theory would suggest it is detrimental. It's probably never going to cause an issue due to the fact that even at the same speed there will be some movement in the rpm band due to corners, hills, traffic patterns etc.

It's not something to worry about but rather something to just understand.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

WTF?
No and no.

What basis do you have for saying not to premix an S2 in such a manner as to imply that it is harmful and a rule? There is NOTHING harmful about proper premixing. Dont assume that just because they have the center injector everything is fine. The S1 was the first rotary without the center injector, and all prior rx-7s benefit from premixing.

Mazda did there best to absorb a bit of neglect, but the reality is it still cant absorb any worth mentioning. And when the community's collective issue is trying to get people to realize how to properly care for the car, i find it odd and counter productive for you to be giving advice against regular maintenence.

Again, where in the hell are you getting this stuff?

Basically all piston or rotary, constant state is the best possible thing for the engine. All high mileage originaal engines have significannt highway miles. High Proportion highway mileage piston engines are all lasting longer. What about trucks that get half a million miles before dying? Trucks that continally improve in mileage as the engines pass 100k?

Your implied physics theory is debunked on a continual basis by the real world.

digitalSniperX1

Seems to me ( and this is something that may have changed as I haven't been on this site in some time ) that the rev to redline advocates are often the same people who've replaced their engines.

Zahir

So many of you claim Revving is a must, that babying a car kills the motor and advise on revving but it still does not explain why, if its true, Mazda would not want to put this in its manual, why top magazines (Road & Track), Motor trend etc.) and such would not go beyond "the engine loves to rev" and say that revving to redline keeps the Engine alive and happy and is necessary.

Even the critics mention that it requires keeping an eye on oil level, that it gives poor mileage but no authority ever has come out and claimed it MUST be revved to redline!

My 09 at 27000+ has yet to show any sign that it is any less than when it was new and its never touched 7K.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I advocate the hell out of it, and I'm still on the original at 92,600 miles. Time and time and time again we hear about the people NOT on this forum who don't know any better losing their engines to massive carbon caking.

I mention in a prior post in this thread all of the ways we can lose an engine. High rev WOT treatment is beneficial to help reduce 1 of those failure methods. Just 1. We don't advocate it as a "end all be all" for rotary health, because there is still plenty of other things you should be doing. Any many engines are lost for reasons OTHER than carbon caking. This is a recommended practice to help reduce the risk of a failure from that particular method.

Actually, you just aren't reading. We state why we advocate it, many times in this threads even, and we even answer the "Manual" question. But here is another shot at seeing if you can read the answer to that question:

For the exact same reason aftermarket fog lights state "for off road use only."

Liability.

Any corporation would be terrified of suggesting something that has, in any tiny little way, a suggestion that someone might do something that could be considered illegal. If Mazda stated it in the manual, there WOULD be lawsuits against them from people that got a speed ticket, crashed their car, etc... from being stupid and blaming it on "Mazda said I needed to redline it!" There have even been some idiot on this very forum who have said "I'm trying, but I can't get to redline in 6th..." (186mph) and were serious about it.

Go watch videos of Mazda factory drivers driving the RX-8. They have no problems with hitting redline. None at all.

Not including it in the manual is a legal liability decision, NOT an engineering / warranty decision.

For the same reason above. They can not suggest it due to liability. And/or they have no idea what a rotary engine is, it's quirks, and it's care, and so they don't even know that it should. I've seen plenty of magazine reviews where the reviewer is scared to get near redline, treats it like a piston engine, and then bashes the hell out of it because he didn't drive it like it was designed to be driven.

Go get a compression test. Get a decarb.

Come back and see what you feel different. Carbon buildup is a slow process, you won't feel it declining unless you are paying close attention to it and know the pre/post difference.

If you were to post your 8 for sale on the forums, that line alone would make me refuse to consider purchasing it.

MattC867

FWIW

I just got back from the dealership for having my new RX8 looked over by Mazda techs. Long story short I got into a conversation with the service tech (who owns an FD RX7) and he specifically told me, on his own, that I should make sure to drive the car hard from time to time. What was his reason? "These engines can get pretty bad carbon build up if you baby them." Then he proceeded to tell me that he has seen a lot of RX8s with carbon build up from having owners that babied them.

So I can say, now, that I have been told by my Mazda dealership that this is the case. Again, doesn't necessarily make it true, but I'm sold (That, and the many reasons explained above)

I don't know which series it is, but I saw an episode of Top Gear where they all had to pick cheap used cars for a countryside race and Richard went with the 8. As he was introducing his pick he said, to paraphrase, "Not only does this car like to rev, but it will thank you for it!"

Which, to me, seems to suggest some awareness of this issue on the part of Richard and Top Gear.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Series 9, episode 2. Can't find it on youtube. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Top_Gear_episodes

Are-Ex-Eight

iTrader: (1)

Your example is flawed. Hwy miles cars have more miles because it's rarely the actual interal engine parts that fail on a car. Hwy is better for so many other parts such as transmissions brakes batteries electrical components with less on and offs etc.

Physics is never wrong except with respect to Einsteins theory about the speed of light lol.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

So you are basically saying "steady state engine rpm is horrible for a tiny part of the engine, so you shouldn't do it, even though it's far better for every other part of the engine and car, and those benefits are not sufficient to outweigh the steady state engine problems."

?

I still don't agree with that, but I'm just trying to understand your argument against highway driving.

Physics (within the laws and rules that we humans know physics to operate) is never wrong. Usually when someone uses a pure physics perspective to argue a theory that is incorrect, it is because they are ignoring the physics of other factors. In your case, physics such as temperature equilibrium, ECU data loop becoming more refined, minimized heat cycles, etc...

Perhaps you are in fact correct that steady state engine RPM is bad for the seals from a pure physics perspective, with "bad" being defined as "non-optimal wear." However, even at the base level I would say that the heat cycles associated with varying RPM is even worse. Thus making steady state still the best thing for it, even if it is still "bad."


A laymans example would be if you are on the roof of a 2 story burning building, and have to jump off the roof, you have a choice of jumping onto a roof 1 story down, and then again from there to the ground, or the entire 2 stories at once. Neither will be very good for your body, but one stands out clearly as the better option, and the one people will recommend.

Just using your own argument here. I still disagree with the fact that the seals are suffering any more under steady state RPM than they do at any other dynamic of engine operation. Completely disagree with it.

dmorales

Personally, I redline regularly, probably not every day though. I have been told by the dealer that the recommend to RX-8 owners to drive the cars aggressively for this very reason.

I don't think redlining it every day is necessarily bad either. The car is made to handle it.

All in all, I would at least drive it hard and redline it every once a week or so at the minimum and more often if you so choose.