RotoRocket

iTrader: (1)

My car idles fine (800rpm when fully warmed) but I had the sudden urge to (for whatever impulsive reason) put a 20 ounce bottle of Chevron Techron Concentrate into TWO consecutive tanks of gas (one 20 ounce bottle treats 20 gallons of fuel).

I actually was going to do it as an OCD measure to make me feel like I was warding off the accumulation of whatever carbon has been or might be taking place.

Any conclusive data that this is good, harmless or bad for the Renesis (and rotaries) given that it has the potential to break down and/or pollute oil circulated via the OMPs that lubricate the motor (and all important apex seals)?

poacherinthezoo

I'm not very familiar with Chevron Techron, but I wouldn't expect it to be in contact with the oil long enough to affect it before burning off. Just a guess though.

NotAPreppie

I doubt that 20 oz diluted into 20 gallons of gasoline will make any difference. 20 gallons is 2560 ounces. So, that's 0.78% Techron in the tank and, as a result, each injector pulse. Do you think that 0.78% is going to make a significant difference?

RotoRocket

iTrader: (1)

This is a highly concentrated solution of Chevron Techron for fuel system cleaning per the kind shown here:





While it's debatable, some people with conventional piston motors will only use it just prior to an oil change because it literally causes the oil to blacken quickly, which can be the visible result of dissolved carbon & other contaminants being dispersed and then suspended within the engine's oil after use (not everyone believes that it's necessary to do an oil change after use of this treatment, but some do).

NotAPreppie

That's mildly alarming. A fuel additive having that large an impact on oil condition? This may mean that it's getting past the various oil seals (or at least it's solvating carbon deposits which are getting past oil seals). Has anybody done a UOA to see if anything is actually going on? (i.e. is this real or just confirmation bias and butt-dyno crap).

The follow-up question that I have is whether this applies to the rotary. Just because it dissolves carbon deposits doesn't mean that it will significantly impact the oil film. Typically, when you are talking about volume/volume solvation (aka "dilution") it's mostly a function of volumes involved (I can go into this further if you'd like to be bored). Since the volume difference between gasoline vs gasoline+techron is only going to be (at most) 1% difference, I doubt it will matter.

Also, if it is genuinely THAT good at mobilizing carbon, why not use techron instead of Seafoam or ZoomZoom cleaner?

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I expect the oil problem is more likely on piston engines, where excess fuel can drain past the piston rings into the oil pan.

NotAPreppie

That was my thought as well but that gets farther away from chemistry and into mechanical engineering so I don't want to speak with any confidence either way.

RotoRocket

iTrader: (1)

It's anecdotal at best, but of the half dozen or so UOA that members of BITOG have done after either using this product, Redline's version or Royal Purple's version (although I do believe Chevron Techron Concentrate has the most highly regarded proportion of Poly Ether Amine as its active ingredient along with a its solvent carrier), there were no untoward consequences regarding the oil.

I'm not that knowledgeable about chemistry, but I raised the question because unlike a conventional piston motor, the Renesis is designed to inject oil in certain quantities and at certain intervals via the oil metering pumps into the combustion chamber/housing, to lubricate the side & apex seals.

Therefore, there's a potential, at least theoretically, that much "dirtier" oil, containing higher concentrations of dissolved contaminants will lubricating the side & apex seals, and also, to the extent that this Poly Ether Amine has the ability to dissolve something as stubborn as carbon deposits (if true), wouldn't it also have the ability to degrade the lubcricosity (if that's a word; viscosity wouldn't be as relevant here, I wouldn't think) of the oil?

monchie

This is interesting because 99% i use Chevron with techron on my cars, even previous cars i owned...

NotAPreppie

It could have an impact on the lubricity if the suspended particles are large in number relative to the quantity of oil.

Assumption 1: the oil film is being renewed at a rate proportional to the amount of gasoline/techron mixture is making it into the engine (assuming that the oil is metered out based on RPM and load).

Assumption 2: the actual amount of techron is going to be >1% by volume.

Assumption 3: much of this is going to be ejected out of the exhaust port anyway, so it isn't like the carbon loosened by the techron is just going to be sitting around, accumulating in the combustion chambers.

Assumption 4: there's a finite amount of carbon that the Techron can A) get to and B) solvate/suspend.

Based on my assumptions I can see two reasonable scenarios.

Scenario 1: The rate of cleaning is very fast. This means that most of the carbon scunge is removed in the first few miles after adding Techron. If that's the case, then the potential increase in wear over time may be high for a while but likely not long enough to do measurable damage.

Scenario 2: The rate of cleaning is very slow. This means that there's never a significant amount of carbon scunge floating around in the engine at any given moment. It likely gets exhausted as quickly as it is loosened and your exhaust tips get a little darker, a little faster.

If you're really worried, find a way to increase MOP output while you run Techron.

NotAPreppie

I wouldn't worry about it. This is concentrated Techron versus the very, very dilute detergent in the additive package at the gas pump.

Since the amount of detergent is so low, second scenario (above) is the most likely case. Honestly, all of the major gas sellers use detergent additives. Shell "w/nitrogen" product is probably the same active ingredient as Techron (polyether amine since "amine" means "nitrogen" in chemist-speak) so it really doesn't matter either way.

RotoRocket

iTrader: (1)

I'll let you all know how it goes.

I just filled a 1/4 tank with about 16 ounces and then filled up with gas.

It's 1,000 miles until my next oil change.

I'll be monitoring my oil closely for odd characteristics and any odor of fuel dilution until then.

I was confident enough to go ahead with this after researching the issue extensively nopistons & some RX-7 forums, also after speaking with a very knowledgeable Chevron tech via their HQ by phone.

It does seem that there's a prevailing view that Chevron Techron Super Concentrate is one of the few fuel system cleaners that isn't snake oil, and that it's highly regarded amongst the rotary head crowd, as well.

NotAPreppie

I'd be more interested to see before/after shots of the engine interior to see if it actually does anything or if all this hand-wrining anxiety was wasted effort.

RotoRocket

iTrader: (1)

Absolutely fascinating results so far that I can't explain - I am burning fuel at TWICE the typical rate I have consistently done so in the past & my fully warm idle has gone from 800rpm to just under 1000rpm.

And I've only burned half a tank with the Chevron Super Techron Concentrate so far.

This should get really interesting.

Anyone have any ideas why my fuel consumption rate has literally doubled with this treatment?

poacherinthezoo

The chevron compound doesn't release the same amount of energy when burned as gas. Hence, your using more fuel. While this may account for the elevated idle and a slight increase in fuel consumption, it seems unlikely that at 1% v/v, the entire effect can be attributed to it. The rest of the answer may lie in the emulsifying properties altering the way the fuel is dispersed in the air before combustion.

Anything else you can tell us? Cat temp? O2 sensor voltage? It is genuinely interesting to see such a marked increase in fuel consumption.


I have my doubts that the engine internals will be noticeably cleaner before and after this treatment. Amine containing polymers work great as surfactants, but solubility is inherently a function of particle size (which is one of the many things I love about nanoparticles). While I do believe that in small quantities such as that found in Shell V-Power and Chevron gas, these additives can help prevent carbon deposits from developing, the additional intermolecular forces and far, far lower surface area of already deposited carbon largely mitigate the ability for these types of polymers to perform their function. While 1% v/v may not sound like a lot, it is quiet high for a surfactant. While this is admittedly an apples to oranges comparison, your average hand soap is closer to 0.05% (look for "polysorbates 80" or 20 in the ingredients list, it will be toward the bottom of the list). Case in point would be the polysorbates - trying to work with 1% solutions can be a pain in the ***.

That's my 2 cents at least.

RotoRocket

iTrader: (1)

Poacher, I unfortunately don't have the specifics on those temps or that voltage level, but as a very rough substitute can tell you nearly all of the miles I've driven since adding the full 20 ounces to 16 gallons of fuel (I added an extra 2.5 gallons after burning 2.5 of the original 13.5 fill up so it wouldn't be too concentrated) have been long stretches in very light traffic and few red lights at 50 to 60 mph - no short tripping or driving in heavy traffic.

The shortest single trip I've done is 16 miles and most have been 20 miles or more.

One thing I forgot to mention is that I only recently put my snow tires on coincident with this first Techron treatment, but in the past, this would only result in a difference in fuel economy of 5% or so, at most.

poacherinthezoo

Almost forgot - since the techron's formulation is a polymer containing both ether and amine groups, the O2 sensor (1st one, not post-cat) is likely seeing more oxygen than its expecting in the exhaust, causing the ECU to "re-think" how it's injecting fuel. However, I was once told that the O2 sensor can only adjust the fuel mixture by 7%. No clue as to how accurate 7% number is though.

911SC

RotoRocket, I don't have the answer to your question, but I'll tell you what i do know. On the Porsche 911 forum Pelican Parts, they swear by Techron for keeping the fuel injectors clean. They also agree that you should change your oil shortly after treating your gas tank with Techron. Something about all the crap the cleaner loosens up and ends up in your oil. So I do a treatment just before it's time for an oil change. Sorry, that's all I've got.

RotoRocket

iTrader: (1)

Good stuff.

I wonder if the Porsche owners came to that consensus (to change oil shortly after treatment) in an overabundance of caution type way, or because they found specific and verifiable proof of oil contamination.

The reason I wonder this is because Chevron claims that the additive package in modern oil will effectively isolate and suspend particulate matter in such a way that it won't make surface area contact with contact points, and that much of it will be filtered out via the oil filter (assuming a short OCI).

Do they have a general opinion on whether a one tank treatment is sufficient or whether a back-to-back two tank treatment is more effective?

Thanks.

RotoRocket

iTrader: (1)

Update -

Burned through full tank with Chevron Techron Concentrate.

I normally get approx 275 to 290 miles per 13.4 gallons but only got 202 miles on this tank (worst by far, ever).

My vehicle normally idles exactly @ 800krpm when it's fully warmed, and idled exactly @ 900krpm when fully warmed with this tank.

It could have been a placebo effect, but my engine seemed to idle more smoothly at idle than normally, though it didn't idle rough before by any means.

I'll update once I run this now new tank of normal 89 octane through her regarding mileage, etc.

911SC

The guys/gals on Pelican Parts are really **** about their cars. Most own early 911's, '60's through late '80's. So as you can imagine, unless they've replaced the injectors, they need a dose of injector cleaner once in a while. Now, whether you need one or back to back treatments would depend on the results you get from the first one. Usually once is enough. Unless of corse your injectors are really clogged. Many of them have their oil analysed after every oil change. I find that to be overkill, but. to each their own. Now, you have to realize our cars hold @ 12+ quarts of oil so the amount of contamination would be less than in a car with 4-5 quarts. Also the recomended oil for the old air cooled engines require high amounts of Zinc to protect the flat tappets, so it may be different than what you would use in a rotory.